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afkalt

Republic Military School

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 2,510

#2681 - 2014-05-16 20:13:49 UTC

stoicfaux wrote:

So, given the impact of travel time in missions, what's a good MWD Mach fit for missions? I am having trouble justifying flying a Mach over a Vargur come summer, mainly due to the Vargur's
* ability to carry three TCs while shield tanking (range: 4.2+69)
* with some extra range from bastion mode. (range: 4.8+74)
* ability to get 2.9 AU/s warp speed with a rig and 10% warp speed implant (or 3.5 AU/s with 2 warp speed rigs plus implant)
* tracking bonus

The MWD Mach doesn't look like it can close the range fast enough to outgun the Vargur when using T1 ammo versus the Vargur's RF ammo and because of the Vargur's one minute MJD. Even with RF ammo, the Mach doesn't look that great.

If I armor tank the Mach, then I could use TCs plus sentries (and not rely on the MWD to close the range as much) but armor tank is weaksauce in missions, especially against Angels, and even with four sentries, the DPS difference against the Vargur isn't that great. And if I go apples to apples and use two sentries on the Vargur, then the Mach is sub-par again (unless it uses RF ammo.)

So can anyone fit a Mach to beat this Vargur for missions?

[Vargur, AC 800]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Gyrostabilizer II
Damage Control II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Large Micro Jump Drive
Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster

800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Bastion Module I

Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I
Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I

Bouncer II x2

tl;dr - Is it just me or has the Mach as the king of missions dead (especially since the TE nerf) and will remain dead in summer?

Depends how much quicker the mach can warp I would think?

Additionally - a vargur (to my mind) is at heavy dimishing returns on pimping above about your fit (and mine Smile

), whereas the Mach really shines brightly with it.

Tyberius Franklin

Federal Navy Academy

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 2,014

#2682 - 2014-05-16 20:21:58 UTC

afkalt wrote:

stoicfaux wrote:

Depends how much quicker the mach can warp I would think?

Additionally - a vargur (to my mind) is at heavy dimishing returns on pimping above about your fit (and mine Smile

), whereas the Mach really shines brightly with it.

What really is there to pimp further that's going to have a really notable effect on completion times?


afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic Likes received: 2,510	#2683 - 2014-05-16 20:45:43 UTC The thing with the mach is it's just a little more here, a little more there. Vargurs are not in that situation.

Numa Pompilious

Viziam

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 2

#2684 - 2014-05-16 20:50:34 UTC | Edited by: Numa Pompilious

Chicken Exroofer wrote:

"
Your passive tanked rattlesnake's DPS is probably just around ~860 DPS (assuming you use CN torps) which is less than my Fury Golem's 900 DPS. Never mind your rattlesnake's poor damage projection and damage application. "

That seems rather low to me. My passive RS (220 hp/sec) with Geckos in the drone bay and two types of sentries ( Gardes and w/e long range is mission appropriate) runs 1033 fit window dps. Fury cruise missiles with good, but not all 5 skills, good, but not all 5 drone skills, and 2 t2 DDA's. One TP, one Fed navy tracking link. Gallente BS 5.
.

Your DPS values seem to line up with mine on TQ. However I took the EXACT same fit on both servers and I found that on SiSi I loose about 100DPS overall. My drone damage on TQ is right at 850DPS, while on SiSi it shrinks to 680 (which is what I really care about for a mission drone boat, launching torps at cruisers is a waste of ISK and carrying torps in the cargo bay takes up space that could be used for salvage).

Such a significant loss of drone bay capacity is very very disappointing and took away the versatility of the previous version.

The snake on TQ currently does 2 things very well ... It tanks, and it is a superb drone carrier. The new RS tanks, it now neither excels in its drone nor missile capabilities.
IMO the missile bonuses do not make up for the drone changes as their are other boats with more focus that can do either better and cheaper.

stoicfaux

Likes received: 6,283

#2685 - 2014-05-16 21:14:30 UTC

Numa Pompilious wrote:

Sentry damage is getting nerfed in the Summer.
current: 7.5xGarde II with 4x DDA IIs = 800 DPS
summer: 7.5xGarde II with 4x DDA IIs = 748 DPS

Not sure how/why you're getting 680. Might be a bug on the test server?

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Tyberius Franklin

Federal Navy Academy

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 2,014

#2686 - 2014-05-16 21:30:27 UTC

stoicfaux wrote:

Numa Pompilious wrote:

What is your Gallente drone spec at?

Numa Pompilious

Viziam

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 2

#2687 - 2014-05-16 21:42:28 UTC

Dunno, maybe, but my Gila is showing 500DPS with Hammer II's in the fitting window ... so maybe its a sentry drone specific issue, or possibly skill related. On that note ... lemme check ... those dirty bastards!!!

OK, here's why ... well partly ... on test the drone specialization skills are now being applied to sentries (my Gallente Drone Specialization is at 4 not 5 so I'm loosing an apparently significant amount of Garde II damage because of it.) Though 2% doesn't seem like that much there might be something else going on in that I'm not taking into account.

stoicfaux

Likes received: 6,283

#2688 - 2014-05-16 23:17:45 UTC

Tyberius Franklin wrote:

stoicfaux wrote:

Numa Pompilious wrote:

What is your Gallente drone spec at?

These are at skill V. There's an EFT file on failheap, and my drone spreadsheet using the numbers from the dev blog.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Tyberius Franklin

Federal Navy Academy

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 2,014

#2689 - 2014-05-16 23:20:38 UTC

stoicfaux wrote:

Tyberius Franklin wrote:

stoicfaux wrote:

Numa Pompilious wrote:

What is your Gallente drone spec at?

These are at skill V. There's an EFT file on failheap, and my drone spreadsheet using the numbers from the dev blog.

Ah ok, thanks!


Numa Pompilious Viziam Amarr Empire Likes received: 2	#2690 - 2014-05-16 23:32:12 UTC Amazingly helpful, thank you for the work and the link.

University of Caille Gallente Federation 105
Barton Breau University of Caille Gallente Federation Likes received: 105	#2691 - 2014-05-17 00:43:04 UTC I wondered how you can do 100% damage to a 320sig 350m/s target with cruises and just one tp, no rigs...


Numa Pompilious Viziam Amarr Empire Likes received: 2	#2692 - 2014-05-17 01:32:16 UTC Barton Breau wrote: I wondered how you can do 100% damage to a 320sig 350m/s target with cruises and just one tp, no rigs... Well I think the short answer here is that you will not. About the only thing that will take full damage from torps is a POS. And it only gets more bleak once you start factoring in resists as well.

stoicfaux

Likes received: 6,283

#2693 - 2014-05-17 01:32:32 UTC

afkalt wrote:

Depends how much quicker the mach can warp I would think?

Additionally - a vargur (to my mind) is at heavy dimishing returns on pimping above about your fit (and mine Smile

), whereas the Mach really shines brightly with it.

Dev Blog warp numbers: http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/65418/1/numbers_table.png

I pulled some times for a blitzing Vargur for level 4s with a warp speed of 2.9 AU/s. 88 warps, with an average distance of 16.9AU per warp. Then I knocked off some time to get an idea of how much time I would save with faster warp speeds.

Vargur, 10% implant, 1xWarp Speed I rigs = 2.9 au/s ~38s to go 20 AU
Average Travel Time: 2m53s (includes docking, undocking, jumping through stargate, aligning, and the actual warping)
Average Mission Time: 7m21s
AverageTotal Time: 10m17s (617s)

If I drop the Burst Aerator II (6% DPS boost) for a 2nd warp rig...
Vargur, 10% implant, 2xWarp Speed I rigs = 3.5 au/s ~32s to go 20 AU (6 second improvement over 2.9 AU/s)
Travel Time: 2m35s
Mission Time: 7m21s
Total Time: 9m56s (596s)
Increase in "Profit" of 3.5% over 2.9 au/s (i.e. you can run missions faster.)

Mach, 10% implant, 3xWarp Speed I rigs = 5.7 au/s ~21s to go 20 AU (17s over 2.9 + 1s for better align time = 18s advantage)
Travel Time: 2m0s
Mission Time: 7m21s
Total Time: 9m21s (561s)
Increase in "Profit" of 10.0% over the 2.9 au/s Vargur
Increase in "Profit" of 6.2% over the 3.5 au/s Vargur

For grins and giggles, let's extrapolate a 2.2 AU/s warp speed (the base for a marauder.) 49s to go 20 AU
Average Travel Time: 3m25s
Average Mission Time: 7m21s
AverageTotal Time: 10m46s (646s)
5.7 AU/s Mach sees a 15.1% increase in profit.

Versus a 2 AU/s battleships. 2 AU/s -> 54s to cover 20 AU
Average Travel Time: 3m40s
Average Mission Time: 7m21s
AverageTotal Time: 11m1s (661s)
5.7 AU/s Mach sees a 17.8% increase in profit.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Black Hydra Consortium. 16,296
Kaarous Aldurald Black Hydra Consortium. Likes received: 16,296	#2694 - 2014-05-17 01:50:52 UTC Stoic, so despite being inferior in combat, the Machariel maintains an edge in isk/hr from warp speed alone? Not sure if that's sad, hilarious, or some combination of both. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs. Best Meltdown Ever.

M Key

Hedion University

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 7

#2695 - 2014-05-17 03:54:37 UTC

I've done a couple. The tank was a bit weaker than I thought it would be, but the gecko can speed/sig tank insane dps so aggro isn't a factor.

My skills for drones and missiles is meh to bad, but it still pulled 1000dps and had no issues with the standard L4 filler missions. I haven't tried the "edge case" like an angel extravaganza or Dread Pirate Scarlet to give it a real workout.

KaDa en Bauldry

Aliastra

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 70

#2696 - 2014-05-17 04:21:39 UTC

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Stoic, so despite being inferior in combat, the Machariel maintains an edge in isk/hr from warp speed alone?

Not sure if that's sad, hilarious, or some combination of both.

That is why baltec1 is in love with the warp speed rigs btw, so no big surprise there...

Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.

stoicfaux

Likes received: 6,283

#2697 - 2014-05-17 04:58:02 UTC

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Stoic, so despite being inferior in combat, the Machariel maintains an edge in isk/hr from warp speed alone?

Tentatively, yes. Especially, if you're blitzing.

I would give it a strong-ish "yes" against missile boats, since gunships have the advantage due to torp/cruise damage and warp speed implants sharing slot six, and because missile boats need/require missile rigs, whereas the gunship is free to fit warp speed rigs.

OTOH the 6.2% advantage the 5.7 AU Mach has over the 3.5 AU Vargur may be equalized out by the Vargur's ability to loot and salvage.

Quote:

Not sure if that's sad, hilarious, or some combination of both.

For additional laughs, don't forget that the other pirate battleships (such as the Rattlesnake) warp at 2 AU/sec, so the level 4 Rattlesnake's DPS buff is undermined by its slooooooooow warp speed.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

M Key

Hedion University

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 7

#2698 - 2014-05-17 07:31:26 UTC

Did Guristas Extravaganza so I have a good baseline since I get this a ton and do it with a paladin. Everything is fine. I wish for better drone UI so it wouldn't try to gank mission triggers the second they spawn. Its just about as fiddly needing to drive the drone in the rattlesnake vs playing with MJD and bastion in the marauder. Tank was quite passable with just a T2 fit, so dunno what mission I was in that was tearing it in 1/2 with ease.

So my final thoughts

Give it +66 cpu to match the extra launcher.
Otherwise its very good.

More cargobay might be a nice quality of life idea.

baltec1

Bat Country

Pandemic Horde

Likes received: 19,001

#2699 - 2014-05-17 08:09:02 UTC

KaDa en Bauldry wrote:

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Stoic, so despite being inferior in combat, the Machariel maintains an edge in isk/hr from warp speed alone?

Not sure if that's sad, hilarious, or some combination of both.

That is why baltec1 is in love with the warp speed rigs btw, so no big surprise there...

This is true.

I am still working on a rhml raven in level 3s to beat stoics' 50 mil/hr ishtar.

Regional Assault and Recon 86
Chicken Exroofer Regional Assault and Recon Likes received: 86	#2700 - 2014-05-17 08:28:03 UTC I seem to remember drone interfacing being reduced from 20% per level to 10% per level in summer patch. That would make for a very significant reduction if that is in the current sisi build. And makes me sad. Since I already have that one at 5.