These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev Blog: Tiptoe Through the Tooltips

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
CCP RubberBAND
CCP Engineering Corp
#721 - 2014-05-16 15:33:30 UTC
Darin Vanar wrote:


It would be really helpful in gathering feedback to state what the goal of the team is with these tooltips?

What are they meant for? They just suddenly got hotdropped on the playerbase with no real explanation for why there are here.

Is it for New Player Experience? If so, we can give our input with that in mind.

Is it the way the client is trying to move forward?
If so, well, we can tell you what we like/don't like about it if you're planning to go as far with this as to eventually overhaul the client. So far, most of the feedback has been that we really don't like any of it, and in this case it's my suggestion that you start over with the "in space" part of the tooltip program.

But I mean, why is it here? What is it meant to accomplish?

We could give you better feedback if we knew that. Otherwise, we are just guessing, and giving you random feedback.


Some good questions.

Let me start by point to the presentation CCP Rise did at Fanfest, which a few other players have linked to, http://youtu.be/sbHqFgn4SOw

And I will try and elaborate without writing another blog. The goal of the team (Pirate Unicorns) is to improve the New Player Experience while also improving the larger user experience of EVE for all players. The long term goal is to try and remove a linear tutorial experience as it currently exists in game and instead replace it with a sandbox tutorial that players can understand by just playing and interacting with the world.

The first step towards achieving this goal are the tooltips. As a result the tooltips have a few specific goals

  • Inform and teach a new player
  • Provide value to existing players
  • Be unobtrusive enough to veterans that they can be ignored

As a final point we work under the assumption that nobody knows everything and so the tooltips are ultimately always valuable to someone at some point (new players and veterans alike).

So now that we have established the goals we can begin tackling the problem.

And to be clear we are aware that any changes to an established UI will ultimately require a lot of fine tuning to get just right and we are looking at some very specific timing issues that should alleviate some of the pain points players are raising.

On a final note, we are having some very serious discussions about the in space tooltips, their values and how players use them. Please keep your feedback coming, we are certainly not ignoring it, but any response requires some planning, implementation and validation on our part.

Feel free to poke me on: Twitter
Darin Vanar
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#722 - 2014-05-16 15:41:06 UTC
Thank you for that explanation, CCP RubberBAND, it is much more clear to me now what you guys are trying to accomplish and I will try to focus my comments and ideas with that in mind.

My feedback in post #719 I think is still applicable to your stated goals, even though I posted it before this official mission statement. I hope that helps you guys in some way.
Grendell
Technologies Unlimited
#723 - 2014-05-16 15:41:57 UTC
Eurynome Mangeiri wrote:


THE PLAYERS WANT THOSE TOOLTIPS TO GTFO

1- the inspace and overview tooltips hides thing behind them AND prevent them to be interacted with
2- the show up / vanish timer is BAD and induce the inability for fast response from players
3- the information is LESS pertinent and more redundant than before

there you go, you have the major issue



This. The old tooltips were far better than this current version. Also having the ability to customize is key. You will never make everybody happy with a blanket setting.

◄[♥]►3rd Party Service◄[♥]►

♥ Securing Peace of mind ♥
Sarka Bathory
Perkone
Caldari State
#724 - 2014-05-16 15:43:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarka Bathory
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
Darin Vanar wrote:


It would be really helpful in gathering feedback to state what the goal of the team is with these tooltips?

What are they meant for? They just suddenly got hotdropped on the playerbase with no real explanation for why there are here.

Is it for New Player Experience? If so, we can give our input with that in mind.

Is it the way the client is trying to move forward?
If so, well, we can tell you what we like/don't like about it if you're planning to go as far with this as to eventually overhaul the client. So far, most of the feedback has been that we really don't like any of it, and in this case it's my suggestion that you start over with the "in space" part of the tooltip program.

But I mean, why is it here? What is it meant to accomplish?

We could give you better feedback if we knew that. Otherwise, we are just guessing, and giving you random feedback.


Some good questions.

Let me start by point to the presentation CCP Rise did at Fanfest, which a few other players have linked to, http://youtu.be/sbHqFgn4SOw

And I will try and elaborate without writing another blog. The goal of the team (Pirate Unicorns) is to improve the New Player Experience while also improving the larger user experience of EVE for all players. The long term goal is to try and remove a linear tutorial experience as it currently exists in game and instead replace it with a sandbox tutorial that players can understand by just playing and interacting with the world.

The first step towards achieving this goal are the tooltips. As a result the tooltips have a few specific goals

  • Inform and teach a new player
  • Provide value to existing players
  • Be unobtrusive enough to veterans that they can be ignored

As a final point we work under the assumption that nobody knows everything and so the tooltips are ultimately always valuable to someone at some point (new players and veterans alike).

So now that we have established the goals we can begin tackling the problem.

And to be clear we are aware that any changes to an established UI will ultimately require a lot of fine tuning to get just right and we are looking at some very specific timing issues that should alleviate some of the pain points players are raising.

On a final note, we are having some very serious discussions about the in space tooltips, their values and how players use them. Please keep your feedback coming, we are certainly not ignoring it, but any response requires some planning, implementation and validation on our part.


This is the best feedback we did get so far from CCP, thanks for it, CCP RubberBand! Your final note is what I needed to hear, "very serious discussions about the in space tooltips" > this is where the problem lies.

I don`t think you are anything like close to reach your 2nd and 3rd bulletpoint above, but if the in space popups are sorted, we all can be happy puppies again Cool
Arec Bardwin
#725 - 2014-05-16 15:47:44 UTC
CCP RubberBAND wrote:

On a final note, we are having some very serious discussions about the in space tooltips, their values and how players use them. Please keep your feedback coming, we are certainly not ignoring it, but any response requires some planning, implementation and validation on our part.
The serious discussions should include how this made it through design and onto TQ without anyone yelling STOP!! Cause I spotted the turd the moment I tried it. No offense meant to any dev involved.
Lair Osen
#726 - 2014-05-16 15:51:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Lair Osen
Anyone else getting a bug where the mouse over text for things in space briefly appears above and to the left of the icon before going to its correct position? kind of like:

Text

....................... [.] Text
Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#727 - 2014-05-16 16:00:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Lallante
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
Just to echo what CCP Karkur stated. The best way you guys can help us (and many of you have) is by describing what the problem is in detail, not just what you would like the solution to be (though you can of course do that also).

We have already been discussing the concerns raised about the current in space bracket changes in detail and are investigating the best way to address them.



The main problem is, through normal gameplay the popups often appear at inopportune times and prevent you clicking on the element directly behind them.

This isn't something that playing with the delay or transparancy is going to fix.

A secondary issue is that a lot of the info has very limited use, either because its really only necessary to see it once ("This is your wallet") or because it repeats info easily accessible through the overview or elsewhere.


The overall concept is strong, and will improve accessiblity, however CCP you really need to work hard to make these tooltips 1) relevant more than once (static info shouldnt be in a tooltip), 2) COMPLETELY transparant (much more visually, and including for clicks).


Go back and watch your own concept videos from 2 fanfests ago where the "tooltip" floats transparently in space around a ship or item without getting in the way. That would be fine.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#728 - 2014-05-16 16:03:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
The issue I see is the tooltip always appears near the pointer. The reason I move the pointer someplace is I want to examine or interact with something there. The tooltip can easily cover up the item I want to see or interact with. It would be good to insure they never, ever, do that. Even if I misplace the pointer so it hits an item beside the one I want to interact with.

For example, I want to interact with item X. I move the mouse, placing the pointer a quarter inch to the left of X, by accident. I see the issue and start to move the pointer. But before I do so, a tooltip pops up and covers X. The UI just dis-enabled me from interacting with the game. That's just wrong.

Another example: I move the pointer toward item X. But just before I get it there, something in the game environment changes, making me reconsider what action I wish to take. While I'm desciding, a tooltip pops up and covers item X. Now I got to stop my process of deciding what to do and instead work an issue with the UI. Again, this is just wrong.

Ideas:

Have a setting that allows me to adjust the transparency of the tooltips.
Allow me to click on items that are covered by the tooltip.

Or

Allow me to set a location where tooltips appear (sort of like damage notifications), so I can always set them to some out of the way place on my screen.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Taksack
xMONOLITHx
The Gorgon Empire
#729 - 2014-05-16 16:04:26 UTC


impossible! make the switch to turn off this stuff. I see no reason to play in what is very annoying.

http://s1.ipicture.ru/uploads/20140516/sInsESEZ.png
Torrentula
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#730 - 2014-05-16 16:10:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Torrentula
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
Just to echo what CCP Karkur stated. The best way you guys can help us (and many of you have) is by describing what the problem is in detail, not just what you would like the solution to be (though you can of course do that also).

We have already been discussing the concerns raised about the current in space bracket changes in detail and are investigating the best way to address them.



The way I interpret this is tell us what the exact problem is so we can figure out what the solution to it should be. The poblem with this is that's what happened when whoever created these tool-tips in the first place. It was clearly demonstrated that the group working on these do not understand what customers want. A good portion of posts want an off button but you guys don't want to hear that. Instead you want to improve the tool-tips. What what will likely happen is half the people will become happy with the final product and the other half will get a "look forward to future updates" that wont come.

Point is a portion of us have to suffer so we are telling you what we think it should have, an OFF SWITCH. Why the redial menu doesn't have one I don't know. It has features ill never use yet I have to suffer with it popping up. Same thing is happening here. We all suffer regardless because some noob might need to see a piece of information to learn something. After they know what that is now they have to suffer from then on.

I'm giving away my account if this doesn't get a off switch because enough is enough. I'm not paying for someones wages who ignores a main feature request. I don't want a game that lots of features that cant get rid of but are forced on me to see like the redial menu and now these tool-tips. Shame on me for paying in advance vs plexing in game. lesson learned. Time for you guys to learn yours. Do your own thing, pay for your own wages. Create feedback threads and ignore main request, find your own player referrals. Get the drift?
Ravcharas
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#731 - 2014-05-16 16:24:46 UTC
I think that if you want to help new players find their way around the ui, reimplementing a label option for the neocom would be right up there on the list. That and redesigning some of the more indistinct buttons.
asteroidjas
Rothschild's Sewage and Septic Sucking Services
The Possum Lodge
#732 - 2014-05-16 16:39:02 UTC  |  Edited by: asteroidjas
CCP RubberBAND wrote:

On a final note, we are having some very serious discussions about the in space tooltips, their values and how players use them. Please keep your feedback coming, we are certainly not ignoring it, but any response requires some planning, implementation and validation on our part.

Not taking away the fact you are actually trying to inform us...but....
...shouldn't that discussion have already happened BEFORE this mess was released to TQ?

I mean, the patchnotes are just laughable, like someone decided to do this thing and didn't check with anyone about what they thought.

Quote:
The remaining training time in the tooltip over the Training Queue will now tick down
Seriously?

Quote:
Targeting indicator in the overview now appears above the bracket icon as it should (rather than below)


If it was so obviously "as it should" work, then how in the wide world of sports did it get built to do just the opposite?

I think part of the problem here stems from a seemingly lack of consequences for publishing terribad patches. As many have already stated, if we did something of this equivalent in our workplaces, we would likely get fired, probation at the very least, (meaning next time we call off we get fired) imho.


---More feedback-----
What did you just do with the solar system map? Now it permanently displays a tooltip for every station in system?

Can we PLEASE have the ability to see who owns offices in systems through the StarMap (along with other info that used to be EASILY available). Why was that deemed bad and need to be removed?
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#733 - 2014-05-16 16:47:09 UTC
Hey guys

My associate CCP Rubber took care of a lot in that post so I'll be brief. I just wanted to let you know that we are working hard to process the feedback and make changes to improve your experience as fast as we can. As you know, we deployed a set of changes today and now we are in the middle of putting together another set to go out next week. I don't know exactly what will be in that list so I'll wait until closer to Tuesday to go over it.

In the mean time we welcome more input, it's been very helpful so far. As Rubberband said, we are especially focused on figuring out the best possible version of the in-space list. We definitely underestimated the impact of making changes to this piece of UI but we are extremely committed to finding an implementation that works for everyone.

Thanks again

@ccp_rise
Duckslayer
Horde Vanguard.
Pandemic Horde
#734 - 2014-05-16 16:58:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Duckslayer
while you are at it, any chance of looking at the issue of readability when near the sun for sigs in space? White text + white glare from the sun = totally unreadable. pics of example issue:

http://puu.sh/8Owfp

http://puu.sh/8OvF7
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#735 - 2014-05-16 16:58:59 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
We definitely underestimated the impact of making changes to this piece of UI but we are extremely committed to finding an implementation that works for everyone.

Thanks again


How about letting the players decide what works best for them by having an "on" or "off" option?


☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Kale Freeman
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#736 - 2014-05-16 16:59:45 UTC
A large part of the problem is that "everyone" covers a wide range of different groups of people. There simply isn't a way you are going to come up with something that works for everyone, unless it is either configurable or very clever and dynamically adapts as a player (not a character) progresses.
Desert Ice78
Gryphons of the Western Wind
#737 - 2014-05-16 17:10:48 UTC
Are we going to get a tooltip that tells us how much our lazers and strips have mined?

I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg

CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.
asteroidjas
Rothschild's Sewage and Septic Sucking Services
The Possum Lodge
#738 - 2014-05-16 17:14:29 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
but we are extremely committed to finding an implementation that works for everyone.

Soooo, what pray tell was sooo detrimentally wrong and non-functional about the old system?

It seemed to work okay for quite a lot of people. Atleast a fair sight better than the current.
Arec Bardwin
#739 - 2014-05-16 17:17:04 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
we are especially focused on figuring out the best possible version of the in-space list.
Spotted the biggest flaw right there. In-space lists are awful design. What was wrong with the old system? Never heard any complaints about it.
asteroidjas
Rothschild's Sewage and Septic Sucking Services
The Possum Lodge
#740 - 2014-05-16 17:17:58 UTC
Desert Ice78 wrote:
Are we going to get a tooltip that tells us how much our lazers and strips have mined?

You have a tooltip that states your yield. Why do you need to know what has already been put into your cargohold? What would you gain from having it tell you how much you've mined? You already have that info...in your cargo/ore hold.

Thought on this, do guns need a tooltip to tell them how much dmg they have inflicted? Not really.