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Dev Blog: Tiptoe Through the Tooltips

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Eurynome Mangeiri
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#641 - 2014-05-16 08:44:48 UTC
Longdrinks wrote:
Please give the big black boxes everywhere a transparancy slider like the other ui parts. So a player so inclined could make it 100% transperant to aproximate the former inspace list of celestials and get rid of a the wasted space in other tooltips. An delay slider for the popup time would also be cool.

while it would allow to see what is behind the box, it would still not solve the #1 issue wich is said box disallow the user the ability to actually interact with what's behind it...the in-space / overview brackets NEED to be removed, either by the way of an ON/OFF switch, or rollback.

this is really game breaking, we had a fleet yesterday, after 10 min everyone dropped because we were simply unable to play.....

i'm a FC, and i discussed the topic with other FC within my alliance.

conclusion is rather clear: no more action until it is fixed, and there is no negotiation possible here.
we are in full damage control to the point we had to add to the alliance / intel chan MOTD that this crap CANNOT be disabled thx to CCP's decision.

alliance chat is currently a flame on how terribad those tooltips are and how "CCP should [ insert various harmfull things / insults here]".
Viktor Mulder
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#642 - 2014-05-16 08:47:38 UTC
Should we all submit a tickets for this stupid problem ? Maybe they will hear us more like that ?
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#643 - 2014-05-16 08:54:33 UTC
I didn't want to tackle that incursus that just landed behind tooltip wall anyway...

Invalid signature format
Penny Ernaga
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#644 - 2014-05-16 09:00:08 UTC
Viktor Mulder wrote:
Should we all submit a tickets for this stupid problem ? Maybe they will hear us more like that ?


Big smile You know what? When I first did run into this tooltips, I thought it was a bug, and I submitted a ticket ... stupid meRoll. Here is the answer from CCP:

Hello,

Thank you for contacting Customer Support. This is a mass reply to our players with input and concerns regarding the Tooltips that were added with the Rubicon 1.4 Patch.

At this time players are unable to disable this new feature. However we are very interested in your input and suggestions on how to improve the information and functionality of these Tooltips. Please understand however that Customer Support is not able to discuss or make any decisions in relation to game or UI design, such as the new Tooltips. As GMs, our focus is on helping players with game play issues and our influence over game design and UI decisions is limited. Additionally, requests filed through the support ticket system are seen by a lone GM unlike a forum post which is seen by dozens if not hundreds of players, including multiple developers.

We would therefore encourage you to post your feedback on the EVE forums for further discussion. Here is a link to the forum thread started by CCP Eterne about the new Tooltips. This is being closely monitored by our Development team for ideas and suggestions for improvement.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4587729#post4587729

Additionally here is a link to the Dev Blog by CCP Delegate Zero where you can read more about this feature:

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/dev-blog-tiptoe-through-the-tooltips/

Once again we would like to thank you for your input and look forward to reading your ideas on how to improve EVE Online.

Best regards,
GM Luthor
CCP Customer Support | EVE Online | DUST 514
Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#645 - 2014-05-16 09:12:14 UTC
CCP Delegate Zero wrote:
There's been some great feedback and we're working through a list of tweaks and fixes, with some to come to TQ very soon.

First, I want to address some misconceptions. The test server, AKA SiSi. Some of the new tooltips were A/B tested on SiSi. All the new tooltips were subsequently on SiSi for all accounts on SiSi for two weeks.

Then there is the matter of pre-existing content that has not changed. An example of this is the solar system map. It hasn't changed. Feedback on how much that needs some love is welcome but it's not feedback on the last release. Other examples are many, many tooltips that were pre-existing but are now in a new format, with a different delay. This makes them more noticeable.

Following on from that, we are thinking very seriously about how delay timing interacts with the tooltip contents and context. This is a contender for some configuration options. Enough people have asked about an off switch that I think I have to give a straight answer to this: a blanket off switch is not a strong contender as a configuration option.

One of the reasons for this is that many, many of the tooltips in the game are not new in a content sense. Format and delay may have changed but the majority have been around for a very long time and they are attached to so many systems and of so many content types that the 'simple fix' of an off switch is really not so simple. On the other hand, as changing delay has exposed some of these to people's perception for the first time, it seems much better to focus on that issue - with improving tooltip content formatting where necessary as a followup measure.

To the list of things we will have ready to deploy very soon:

UI tweaks:

When you hover over brackets in space the full name and distance is displayed next to the bracket.

The tooltip that explains the details of the icon associated with an overview entry is now displayed only when hovering over the icon in the overview.

The tooltips for the buttons in the Selected Item window no longer overlap with the important information in that window.

The tooltip for the skill queue in the NeoCom now continuously updates the remaining skill training time.

The name column in the overview now has a tooltip with detailed name information for that entry.

A number of changes have been made to the bracket list tooltip for overlapping brackets in space:

  • The bracket list tooltip is no longer displayed for single brackets
  • The logic for picking which brackets to include in the list has been greatly improved
  • The bracket status information (such as reinforcement time and anchored status) has been added to the entries in the list
  • The list now has a maximum width limit
  • The list background has a slight transparency applied to it
  • An issue has been fixed that kept the list open after interacting with it


Fixes:

A number of hardcoded statistics strings in the starmap tooltips have been replaced with properly localized strings.

The indicator overlay on overview icons that you have targeted is no longer overlapped by the icon itself.

Fixed the anchoring position of the tooltips in the map browser (opened with F11).


This is not an exhaustive list of incoming fixes, nor the end of the tuning work. Moreover, we plan to expand and iterate on tooltips going forward.




No offence, and I'm sure a lot of work went into all this and everything, but what you dont seem to appreciate is that these tooltip changes mark a MASSIVE step backwards in terms of playability, for a SLIGHT step forwards in terms of accessability.

The tooltips pop up and cover things you need to be able to see or click on. There are many instances where this literally prevents you from taking a necessary action.

Saying "its too complex to allow you to turn off" simply isnt good enough. Delay the whole thing by 3-6 patches if needed and release it at christmas, but under no circumstances push this live without an opt-out or the only result will be till kill any activity that requires quick reactions (e.g. PvP).
Darin Vanar
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#646 - 2014-05-16 09:13:29 UTC
Eurynome Mangeiri wrote:
Longdrinks wrote:
Please give the big black boxes everywhere a transparancy slider like the other ui parts. So a player so inclined could make it 100% transperant to aproximate the former inspace list of celestials and get rid of a the wasted space in other tooltips. An delay slider for the popup time would also be cool.

while it would allow to see what is behind the box, it would still not solve the #1 issue wich is said box disallow the user the ability to actually interact with what's behind it...the in-space / overview brackets NEED to be removed, either by the way of an ON/OFF switch, or rollback.

this is really game breaking, we had a fleet yesterday, after 10 min everyone dropped because we were simply unable to play.....

i'm a FC, and i discussed the topic with other FC within my alliance.

conclusion is rather clear: no more action until it is fixed, and there is no negotiation possible here.
we are in full damage control to the point we had to add to the alliance / intel chan MOTD that this crap CANNOT be disabled thx to CCP's decision.

alliance chat is currently a flame on how terribad those tooltips are and how "CCP should [ insert various harmfull things / insults here]".



Quoting because this is serious and no one likes to have a raiding night ruined because of something stupid. I am comparing fleet activities to raiding, as that is probably as important as the people that I raided with thought that to be.

Which CCP, let me tell you, from a player's perspective, is pretty darn serious!

Disable your tooltips, in space, at least.

Leave them on the fitting window if you must, perhaps focus this OCB energy into explaining the various attributes on modules, and info window attributes that a new player will not understand at a glance - but please, leave an off switch for players who don't want to see that.

I think the only part you got right was the F10 map. But only because you removed a wall of menus and replaced them with a more intuitive piece of information. By removing information, you made it better, because it's now more *streamlined*. This however, does not apply to parts of the game where you have to interact with the game space itself. That, you have overly burdened with TOO MUCH information.

To the point where it blocks gameplay for people in space.

Remove all those in-space tooltips, please, or add an off switch. (And at this stage, I strongly recommend an off switch for just about everything.)

It starts out enabled, then as the new player orients around, they can disable them as they feel it's needed - you know, like the tutorials that have those 'reset' boxes in the settings window. Let them specify how much hand holding they need, before they feel they're ready to get out there and don't need the training wheels anymore.

Forcing this on everyone, without any prior warning, or in game testing, and promises of 'more to come', is as insane as it gets from a development team. Team Unicorns is off to a bad start. Abort! Abort!
Longdrinks
Zero Fun Allowed
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#647 - 2014-05-16 09:36:09 UTC
Some usercases cases collected from FHC

Mortvvs;1087423 wrote:
The most annoying thing for me so far: if a ship warps out, the camera swings around to the celestial it's warping to and I want to right click said celestial, I now right click my own ship or its tool tip instead, wasting seconds trying to spin the camera into a place where I can actually click the celestial.


OrangeAfroMan;1087097 wrote:
Worst part about this change is whenever you right click a ship (overview or in space) it now selects it into your "Selected Item" window, which I like to save for my warpout celestial :l
Darin Vanar
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#648 - 2014-05-16 10:29:44 UTC
I like how the thread title is called, Tiptoe Through the Tooltips, like we're in a meadow collecting flowers or something.

I would like to take a nice, big, wrecking hammer to these tooltips. :)

It would do most of them some good.

Tiptoeing is NOT the ANSWER!
Davina Sienar
The Misinterpretation of Silence
#649 - 2014-05-16 10:36:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Davina Sienar
Darin Vanar wrote:
I like how the thread title is called, Tiptoe Through the Tooltips, like we're in a meadow collecting flowers or something.

I would like to take a nice, big, wrecking hammer to these tooltips. :)

It would do most of them some good.

Tiptoeing is NOT the ANSWER!




LOL had bout same Idea a few minutes ago

just that I ended up with "Elephant in Porcellain Store" somehow

:-P
David Gradivus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#650 - 2014-05-16 10:48:15 UTC  |  Edited by: David Gradivus
CCP Delegate Zero wrote:
There's been some great feedback and we're working through a list of tweaks and fixes, with some to come to TQ very soon.

First, I want to address some misconceptions. The test server, AKA SiSi. Some of the new tooltips were A/B tested on SiSi. All the new tooltips were subsequently on SiSi for all accounts on SiSi for two weeks.

Then there is the matter of pre-existing content that has not changed. An example of this is the solar system map. It hasn't changed. Feedback on how much that needs some love is welcome but it's not feedback on the last release. Other examples are many, many tooltips that were pre-existing but are now in a new format, with a different delay. This makes them more noticeable.

Following on from that, we are thinking very seriously about how delay timing interacts with the tooltip contents and context. This is a contender for some configuration options. Enough people have asked about an off switch that I think I have to give a straight answer to this: a blanket off switch is not a strong contender as a configuration option.

One of the reasons for this is that many, many of the tooltips in the game are not new in a content sense. Format and delay may have changed but the majority have been around for a very long time and they are attached to so many systems and of so many content types that the 'simple fix' of an off switch is really not so simple. On the other hand, as changing delay has exposed some of these to people's perception for the first time, it seems much better to focus on that issue - with improving tooltip content formatting where necessary as a followup measure.

To the list of things we will have ready to deploy very soon:

UI tweaks:

When you hover over brackets in space the full name and distance is displayed next to the bracket.

The tooltip that explains the details of the icon associated with an overview entry is now displayed only when hovering over the icon in the overview.

The tooltips for the buttons in the Selected Item window no longer overlap with the important information in that window.

The tooltip for the skill queue in the NeoCom now continuously updates the remaining skill training time.

The name column in the overview now has a tooltip with detailed name information for that entry.

A number of changes have been made to the bracket list tooltip for overlapping brackets in space:

  • The bracket list tooltip is no longer displayed for single brackets
  • The logic for picking which brackets to include in the list has been greatly improved
  • The bracket status information (such as reinforcement time and anchored status) has been added to the entries in the list
  • The list now has a maximum width limit
  • The list background has a slight transparency applied to it
  • An issue has been fixed that kept the list open after interacting with it


Fixes:

A number of hardcoded statistics strings in the starmap tooltips have been replaced with properly localized strings.

The indicator overlay on overview icons that you have targeted is no longer overlapped by the icon itself.

Fixed the anchoring position of the tooltips in the map browser (opened with F11).


This is not an exhaustive list of incoming fixes, nor the end of the tuning work. Moreover, we plan to expand and iterate on tooltips going forward.



Good update

Ability to configure transparency of all tooltip backgrounds needs to happen. Ranging from current state (or darker if desired) to very clear. Many visibility issues being caused by tooltip black boxes resulting in much frustration

It is understandable not being able to implement a hard off switch; many systems are tied into new tooltips. If off switch or ability to revert to old tooltip configuration is not possible than the ability to add an extensive delay needs to happen. In particular new overview tooltips and any new tooltips added in space (stations, stargates, etc.) that do not display critical information.

HUD ship readout (capacitor, armor, heat status, current speed, etc) need configuration options such as no icons, transparency, delay, placement. Causing visibility issues.
Penny Ernaga
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#651 - 2014-05-16 10:55:22 UTC
The question was up quite a few times, but is still not answered:

Where is CSM ???

Well, maybe they did not notice yet. But having now 33 pages filled with frustration, maybe we should draw their attention to this matter. Here are the links to mail directly to the current CSM-members, making it convenient for all of you to drop them a line:

https://gate.eveonline.com/Mail/Compose/Mangala%20Solaris
https://gate.eveonline.com/Mail/Compose/DJ%20FunkyBacon
https://gate.eveonline.com/Mail/Compose/Sion%20Kumitomo
https://gate.eveonline.com/Mail/Compose/progodlegend
https://gate.eveonline.com/Mail/Compose/corebloodbrothers
https://gate.eveonline.com/Mail/Compose/Ali%20Aras
https://gate.eveonline.com/Mail/Compose/Mike%20Azariah
https://gate.eveonline.com/Mail/Compose/Xander%20Phoena
https://gate.eveonline.com/Mail/Compose/mynnna
https://gate.eveonline.com/Mail/Compose/Matias%20Otero
https://gate.eveonline.com/Mail/Compose/corbexx
https://gate.eveonline.com/Mail/Compose/Major%20JSilva
https://gate.eveonline.com/Mail/Compose/Steve%20Ronuken
https://gate.eveonline.com/Mail/Compose/Sugar%20Kyle

This is what I will write, to each of them:

"Dear CSM9-member,

I`m writing to you because you are an elected representative of the players of EVE. The latest patch with the introduction of the tooltips (especially the popup windows in space) causes a lot of discussions on the EVE forums. It may be worth for you to have a look, so that you can take appropriate action, if you may see need. Here is the link to one of these forum threads:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=344245

My personal oppinion in regards to the tooltip patch is that it is massively distorting the EVE play experience, and my personal wish is that CSM takes a standpoint on this topic - whatever this will be.

Many thanks in advance for thinking about my proposal!

Best regards"

(Please feel free to copy & paste, in case you`d like too - no copyright. ...Although a short personal note might be better)
Marcel Brinalle
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#652 - 2014-05-16 10:57:18 UTC
You know what? I think CSM hides under the bed, and CCP staff simply sits there and laughs at us thinking "and what will you do, stop playing?"

No I will not. But not because you give me great product, but because I like the company of people I play with and I know they rely on me. The product you offer currently smells bad, and your ignorance to your playerbase issues is appalling. I will not stop playing, I will simply advise to all prospective players I meet to stay away from this place, unless they want to be treated like catlle by developers. Have fun milking us from our money.
Arec Bardwin
#653 - 2014-05-16 11:00:36 UTC
Darin Vanar wrote:
I like how the thread title is called, Tiptoe Through the Tooltips, like we're in a meadow collecting flowers or something.

I would like to take a nice, big, wrecking hammer to these tooltips. :)

It would do most of them some good.

Tiptoeing is NOT the ANSWER!
There's plenty of fresh dung among the tulips.
Darin Vanar
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#654 - 2014-05-16 11:01:34 UTC
Davina Sienar wrote:
Darin Vanar wrote:
I like how the thread title is called, Tiptoe Through the Tooltips, like we're in a meadow collecting flowers or something.

I would like to take a nice, big, wrecking hammer to these tooltips. :)

It would do most of them some good.

Tiptoeing is NOT the ANSWER!




LOL had bout same Idea a few minutes ago

just that I ended up with "Elephant in Porcellain Store" somehow

:-P


Haha, that is a good one. :)
Belt Scout
Thread Lockaholics Anonymous
#655 - 2014-05-16 11:17:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Belt Scout
Penny Ernaga wrote:
The question was up quite a few times, but is still not answered:

Where is CSM ???

Well, maybe they did not notice yet. But having now 33 pages filled with frustration, maybe we should draw their attention to this matter. Here are the links to mail directly to the current CSM-members, making it convenient for all of you to drop them a line:

https://gate.eveonline.com/Mail/Compose/Mangala%20Solaris
https://gate.eveonline.com/Mail/Compose/DJ%20FunkyBacon
https://gate.eveonline.com/Mail/Compose/Sion%20Kumitomo
https://gate.eveonline.com/Mail/Compose/progodlegend
https://gate.eveonline.com/Mail/Compose/corebloodbrothers
https://gate.eveonline.com/Mail/Compose/Ali%20Aras
https://gate.eveonline.com/Mail/Compose/Mike%20Azariah
https://gate.eveonline.com/Mail/Compose/Xander%20Phoena
https://gate.eveonline.com/Mail/Compose/mynnna
https://gate.eveonline.com/Mail/Compose/Matias%20Otero
https://gate.eveonline.com/Mail/Compose/corbexx
https://gate.eveonline.com/Mail/Compose/Major%20JSilva
https://gate.eveonline.com/Mail/Compose/Steve%20Ronuken
https://gate.eveonline.com/Mail/Compose/Sugar%20Kyle

This is what I will write, to each of them:

"Dear CSM9-member,

I`m writing to you because you are an elected representative of the players of EVE. The latest patch with the introduction of the tooltips (especially the popup windows in space) causes a lot of discussions on the EVE forums. It may be worth for you to have a look, so that you can take appropriate action, if you may see need. Here is the link to one of these forum threads:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=344245

My personal oppinion in regards to the tooltip patch is that it is massively distorting the EVE play experience, and my personal wish is that CSM takes a standpoint on this topic - whatever this will be.

Many thanks in advance for thinking about my proposal!

Best regards"

(Please feel free to copy & paste, in case you`d like too - no copyright. ...Although a short personal note might be better)


You have to accept the fact that the CSM is useless. 33 pages and how many posts from CSM?

.

They say most of your brain shuts down on the EvE forums. All but the impatient side, and the sarcastic side. No wonder I'm still awake.

**This IS my main so STFU.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#656 - 2014-05-16 11:21:20 UTC
Penny Ernaga wrote:
The question was up quite a few times, but is still not answered:

Where is CSM ???

Well, maybe they did not notice yet. But having now 33 pages filled with frustration, maybe we should draw their attention to this matter.

It could be they're waiting for the update the devs are working on.

It's not always a good idea to step into a heated issue on the first day or two.

On the other hand, it would've been reasonable for more CSM members posting in this thread if only to say 'guys, I understand your concerns, let's see what the devs implement and test it a day or two, so we can elaborate a robust feedback'.

IF post-patch the UI continues to have major flaws and IF CCP declares their intention of not changing it further, then YES if CSM remain silent they're not really doing their job imo.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Belt Scout
Thread Lockaholics Anonymous
#657 - 2014-05-16 11:22:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Belt Scout
Eurynome Mangeiri wrote:
Longdrinks wrote:
Please give the big black boxes everywhere a transparancy slider like the other ui parts. So a player so inclined could make it 100% transperant to aproximate the former inspace list of celestials and get rid of a the wasted space in other tooltips. An delay slider for the popup time would also be cool.

while it would allow to see what is behind the box, it would still not solve the #1 issue wich is said box disallow the user the ability to actually interact with what's behind it...the in-space / overview brackets NEED to be removed, either by the way of an ON/OFF switch, or rollback.

this is really game breaking, we had a fleet yesterday, after 10 min everyone dropped because we were simply unable to play.....

i'm a FC, and i discussed the topic with other FC within my alliance.

conclusion is rather clear: no more action until it is fixed, and there is no negotiation possible here.
we are in full damage control to the point we had to add to the alliance / intel chan MOTD that this crap CANNOT be disabled thx to CCP's decision.

alliance chat is currently a flame on how terribad those tooltips are and how "CCP should [ insert various harmfull things / insults here]".



How mad were ya when you rolled your camera all the out to view the field and THAT billboard popped up next to your mouse pointer?

They say most of your brain shuts down on the EvE forums. All but the impatient side, and the sarcastic side. No wonder I'm still awake.

**This IS my main so STFU.
Darin Vanar
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#658 - 2014-05-16 11:25:06 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Penny Ernaga wrote:
The question was up quite a few times, but is still not answered:

Where is CSM ???

Well, maybe they did not notice yet. But having now 33 pages filled with frustration, maybe we should draw their attention to this matter.

It could be they're waiting for the update the devs are working on.


It also could be that they are assisting in the writing of additional tooltips, for areas of the game that did not make it in this current iteration.
Penny Ernaga
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#659 - 2014-05-16 11:25:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Penny Ernaga
Marcel Brinalle wrote:
You know what? I think CSM hides under the bed, and CCP staff simply sits there and laughs at us thinking "and what will you do, stop playing?"

No I will not. But not because you give me great product, but because I like the company of people I play with and I know they rely on me. The product you offer currently smells bad, and your ignorance to your playerbase issues is appalling. I will not stop playing, I will simply advise to all prospective players I meet to stay away from this place, unless they want to be treated like catlle by developers. Have fun milking us from our money.


Even after I have seen the lack of interest and involvement from CCP - in fact, CCP Delegate Zero is the only one brave enough to show his face here -, I can still not believe that they don`t care at all.
EVE before the patch was the best online game, IMHO, and I loved to play it. This is why I do what I can to get a remedy for these awful in-space-view&interaction-blockers (cool wordBlink). But if there will be no remedy, not all people will stay - in fact PVP, fleetbattles, exploration, are so messed up now, that many players will leave, and many new players having a look will not extend their trial period (lets face it, trading & mining are not so thrilling). Have a look at the ingame-chat sh**tstorms, this forum here is just the tip of the iceberg. CCP knows this, I assume. Why would they want to loose subscribers?
Marcel Brinalle
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#660 - 2014-05-16 11:34:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcel Brinalle
To me what's happening here is unbelievable as well. But it's happenig nonetheless