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Dev Blog: Tiptoe Through the Tooltips

First post First post
Author
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#621 - 2014-05-16 04:03:28 UTC
Oraac Ensor wrote:
Quintessen wrote:

They've already mentioned they want to get rid of the tutorials -- the thing that teaches them in the first hour.

Link, please.


New Player Experience talk @ Fanfest 2014:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbHqFgn4SOw&list=PLldrBIEnJ5hMIXwk_e8-VZb0EldJqXmg_

starting @ about 7:00.

The whole thing is really worth a watch.
Marcel Brinalle
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#622 - 2014-05-16 04:22:00 UTC
Quintessen wrote:
Marcel Brinalle wrote:
Quintessen wrote:
The blocking of things in space and the loss of overview information is something that needs to be address, but calling for everything to be removed or rolled back isn't going to happen and shouldn't happen


And here is where you are totally wrong. I'm not saying the idea is wrong, I's saying this update is failed. This update should be rolled back and not introduced until issues are resolved. This is how any professional company would deal with it.


I'm a software architect specializing in UI, among other things, that has worked for a lot of major companies -- professional companies -- and this kind of thing happens all the time. It's not pretty, it's not desired, but the cost of rollback is usually high enough that unless it's a blocker (e.g. crashing, data corruption, etc.), the stuff sits out there and a patch is released as soon as possible.

You have to measure the cost of fixing the problem compared to the cost of rolling it back. Rollbacks are usually very expensive on live systems like EVE. Which is why it doesn't happen very often. In fact, I'm not sure it's ever happened in EVE.


I don't have to measure anything. It's CCP problem, not mine. My problem, as an explorer, is that instead of clicking cans I click tooltips, and that I need to wait too long for them to appear. It broke my game. Game I paid for. Period. I won't even mention other things (yeah, I do other things too on a side) where these tooltips are nothing but annoying, and sometimes just an obstacle.

It's CCP who should deal with that, not me. I said it once, gonna say it second time: I pay, I demand.

Btw, I wonder, what consequences (if any...) will meet the person responsible.
Torgeir Hekard
I MYSELF AND ME
#623 - 2014-05-16 04:57:58 UTC
Quintessen wrote:

Putting my UX hat on, the tooltips will be good for the NPE because despite the fact that existing players know what a station is, new players won't and having that show up is good for new players.


The game does not end at new players.

Before thinking about how to implement tooltips we first need to understand why we need tooltips in the first place and what for. Or we may just as well start implementing wings on trucks. Just because we can.

If we need tooltips for NPE and we want them everywhere, then let NEW players have them, because countless ad popups get annoying fast when you already know what they would say before they appear and just sit there dreading the inevitable black monolith of death and eternal suffering, and there's no AdBlock for EVE.

If we need tooltips to show useful information then make them show useful information. PROTIP: I know caracal is a cruiser. In fact I knew caracal is a cruiser BEFORE I downloaded EVE client for the first time. In fact I will remember that caracal is a cruiser for the rest of my life after first seeing it. I don't need the game to remind me that caracal is, in fact, a cruiser. And that the sun is, in fact, a sun. Every single bloody time.

And if we want to give players useful information, then we have to determine first which information is useful when. If I see a ship warping out to a bunch of celestials, the useful information is which celestial I'm pointing my mouse at. Not a christmas shopping list. Not a content of my cargo. Not JUST a list of celestials in a general direction of somewhere. I need to see the specific one.

When in space, there are certain layers of information depending on urgency. Spatial awareness (and the ability to immediately act on it) comes first, and any work on relaying information to the player must never be done on the expence of it.

In their current iteration tooltips are there for the sake of tooltips. "Hey look, we can do this new shiny black boxes, let's put them everywhere without any thought put into why we need them".
Merida DunBrogh
Black Screen Of Raging Defeat
#624 - 2014-05-16 05:04:05 UTC
Should I remind you all about the Inventory Changes? They were goddamn HORRIBLE at first, but have since then beome usable and for me personally as quick as the old system.

So far I have not noticed much trouble with the tooltips, the overview and the scrollable selection box are a bit silly I'll admit but most of them are fine. Give them time to fix the issues that have been raised and it will likely turn out fine.

The inventory system wasn't fixed in 1 day either.
Oraac Ensor
#625 - 2014-05-16 05:18:06 UTC
Quintessen wrote:
Oraac Ensor wrote:
Quintessen wrote:

They've already mentioned they want to get rid of the tutorials -- the thing that teaches them in the first hour.

Link, please.


New Player Experience talk @ Fanfest 2014:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbHqFgn4SOw&list=PLldrBIEnJ5hMIXwk_e8-VZb0EldJqXmg_

starting @ about 7:00.

The whole thing is really worth a watch.

I watched all of that presentation live and I’ve just watched the whole thing again. CCP Rise doesn’t say they want to get rid of the tutorials, plural (in fact he quite specifically says they have no intention of touching the career tutorials), but says they want to replace the introductory tutorial with a different form of tutorial which presents information in a more general, more involving manner – primarily by getting rid of all the text boxes. So new players would still learn what a station is, but not as part of an isolated, stand-alone concept as happens at the moment.
Davina Sienar
The Misinterpretation of Silence
#626 - 2014-05-16 05:18:46 UTC
Merida DunBrogh wrote:
Should I remind you all about the Inventory Changes? They were goddamn HORRIBLE at first, but have since then beome usable and for me personally as quick as the old system.

So far I have not noticed much trouble with the tooltips, the overview and the scrollable selection box are a bit silly I'll admit but most of them are fine. Give them time to fix the issues that have been raised and it will likely turn out fine.

The inventory system wasn't fixed in 1 day either.




yeas it took almost a year to get old functionality back ^^

\o/


Please tell me ANY Reason for Tooltip like this http://i.imgur.com/Y2l83xi.jpg
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#627 - 2014-05-16 06:15:30 UTC  |  Edited by: gascanu
Merida DunBrogh wrote:
Should I remind you all about the Inventory Changes? They were goddamn HORRIBLE at first, but have since then beome usable and for me personally as quick as the old system.

So far I have not noticed much trouble with the tooltips, the overview and the scrollable selection box are a bit silly I'll admit but most of them are fine. Give them time to fix the issues that have been raised and it will likely turn out fine.

The inventory system wasn't fixed in 1 day either.



so you are telling us that we need to wait another 6 month or so till the game become playable again? really? and that is a good thing because?
because after those six months we will have the game that we had last week?
the game was working fine, no one asked for this stupidity. instead ppl are asking for some stuff FOR YEARS NOW - nulsec sov fix, pos rebalance- and CCP is wasting time and hundreds of hours of developing time on crap like this or some new deployables that no one want or use.

The CEO of CCP promised on this forums that CCP will not ignoring their playerbase anymore and listen to what they say; so here we are and we say: "stop wasting your time on such useles things and for the hundred time again, if it's not broken don't fix it; oh and GIVE US THE DAMN OFF SWITCH ALREADY! "

p.s.: man, if they screw up such a big time on a such small issue, i can't even begin to consider what will happen with industry patch where they will change basically half of the gameUgh
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#628 - 2014-05-16 06:17:11 UTC
CCP Delegate Zero wrote:


Following on from that, we are thinking very seriously about how delay timing interacts with the tooltip contents and context. This is a contender for some configuration options. Enough people have asked about an off switch that I think I have to give a straight answer to this: a blanket off switch is not a strong contender as a configuration option.



Then give me a Bloody configuration option to revert back to the old tooltip.

Atleast those did not...

Obscure my view
Stop me from selecting or clicking on something behind the big black box since it blots out half the view-able area.
GIVE ME LESS INFO about what i see on my overview. Seriously.... this is a FRIGATE? What happened with corp/alliance
Popups EVERYWHERE for idiot things.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk

Josef Djugashvilis
#629 - 2014-05-16 06:26:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Josef Djugashvilis
Arec Bardwin wrote:
The tool tip window in space is absolutely horrible in highly cluttered situations. Having a huge scrollable window smack in the middle of the action? Who came up with this idea?


The same person who came up with the horrendous exploration loot spew?

This is not a signature.

Penny Ernaga
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#630 - 2014-05-16 07:06:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Penny Ernaga


Big smile EPIC! ...and so sad that this is what it is...

What we are now missing is another confirmation popup box, asking e.g.: "Are you really sure you want to activate your scram on the object locked? - YES / NO / LATER"

You made my day, bro!
Ibuyyou Kitty
#631 - 2014-05-16 07:15:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Ibuyyou Kitty
Quintessen,

I have been reading through all of your previous post and IMHO you are obviously either an alt of a CCP employee or a unemployed-wannabe CCP employee. For the life of me I cannot fathom most if not all of your responses. Do you actually play the same game we all play?

Tooltips are no different than any other setting. An on-off switch should have been deployed with this patches release. PERIOD
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#632 - 2014-05-16 07:40:53 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
CCP Delegate Zero wrote:
While it may well be that people who call for the firing of others, fling abusive tosh around, or indeed issue various flavours of threat themselves, merit a threat or two in return, this wasn't a threat.

More of a promise.

If a customer asks for steak at a restaurant and the waiter brings out fish and tells the customer to suck it up, that waiter gets fired.
If a customer asks to have their Windows PC fixed and the tech installs Ubuntu and tells the customer to suck it up, that tech gets fired.


Welcome to how the world works. Why you think you get to deliver a ****** UI change that people have told you is unwanted and tell them they'll just have to deal with it is bewildering to me. Yes, you should be fired, because you delivered fish and instead of taking it back to the kitchen because we didn't want fish, you're offering different sauces to put on it thinking that will please us. You can't magically turn fish into steak, so stop trying to improve these tooltips because you're not going to fix their fundamental flaws.

On/off switch or rollback entirely. Those are your options.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Sarka Bathory
Perkone
Caldari State
#633 - 2014-05-16 07:41:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarka Bathory
Quintessen wrote:
Please, CCP, for the love of all that is holy, please do not listen to the users on what the UI should look like. I bring you the first rule of usability:

http://www.nngroup.com/articles/first-rule-of-usability-dont-listen-to-users/

Putting my UX hat on, the tooltips will be good for the NPE because despite the fact that existing players know what a station is, new players won't and having that show up is good for new players. You can expand this to all sorts of things.

Existing players, please don't presume that putting tooltips on things is trying to insult you. You're all super hardcore and the tooltips aren't saying otherwise. The blocking of things in space and the loss of overview information is something that needs to be address, but calling for everything to be removed or rolled back isn't going to happen and shouldn't happen (again UX hat on).

So please, CCP, iterate away. Deal with the issues at hand and continue to improve the client. It's certainly going to mean that when I try and get people to play, I'm not going to have to answer a never-ending sequence of questions that the UI really should already tell them.

And finally, for all the players complaining about the overview telling you it's a station, if the name of something in the overview is something like Xxx Trade Hub and the Type is Xxx Hub, and the symbol is a square, how is a new player supposed to automatically know that that item is a station? For those claiming that CCP didn't think about the play experience, it's just about as bad to presume that every player knows what every symbol is.


This post is a joke, right? If not: Dear Quintessen, you are a 2009 toon with 1 Kill and 8 losses on your KB? May I therefore assume that you are not into PVP, Exploration, or Missions? That you are either into highsec mining or station trading? Right?

Very bold to tell people it should stay as it is, because it does not affect your station trading or whatever else you do (..if you undock at all....88Mill skillponts/1 kill...you know what I mean).

And for this "new player experience mantra": every 6 year old with an IQ above room temperature will not be in need of 90% of the tooltips after 1 to 3 days. Good choice to hamper the rest of the player base for that "huge benefit".

And now, seriously: whose CCP alt are you?
Lisa Gentilette
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#634 - 2014-05-16 07:46:02 UTC
Davina Sienar wrote:
Please tell me ANY Reason for Tooltip like this http://i.imgur.com/Y2l83xi.jpg


This.

It's right in your face CCP, redundant, useless, pointless, implemented without even thinking do they really need this?

Eurynome Mangeiri
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#635 - 2014-05-16 07:49:13 UTC
Merida DunBrogh wrote:
Should I remind you all about the Inventory Changes? They were goddamn HORRIBLE at first, but have since then beome usable and for me personally as quick as the old system.

So far I have not noticed much trouble with the tooltips, the overview and the scrollable selection box are a bit silly I'll admit but most of them are fine. Give them time to fix the issues that have been raised and it will likely turn out fine.

The inventory system wasn't fixed in 1 day either.

yeah we all remember, it took 6 month to get slightly usuable, a year to be almost bug free, and still doesn't perform half as good as the old system....so yeah, we remember
Alternative Splicing
Captain Content and The Contenteers
#636 - 2014-05-16 08:15:46 UTC
I found this today. It's pretty telling of some of the issues here.
http://imgur.com/XJKb9vr
50% or more of the actual relevant and well displayed information is covered by a completely redundant and annoying popup of what was plainly obvious.

Fixing NPE is not even remotely solvable by things like this; you want to encourage veterans to show new players the game and teach them the ins and outs - there's simply more to this game than can be distilled into a canned tutorial no matter how much work and effort is put into it. They will generally do this when the game is very fun for them. While there are many ways to make the game more fun for its current crop of players, annoying them with changes they neither need nor want, nor even like, is probably not the best way to go about things.

We play this game, we know what we want, and we have spoken; we want a rollback or an option to turn this nonsense off.
chumbucket
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#637 - 2014-05-16 08:23:41 UTC
Wheres the off button already? You have had more then enough time to concave your faces by repeated face palming. The veteran players do not suffer from Alzheimer's disease and we do not need you to tell us where or what something. After almost a decade of playing this game I think I have it figured out. Next time you want to put the black rubber mask on Tranquility and turn it into a limpy gimp maybe you should give a little more thought into testing things for more then 2 weeks on a server 99.9% of eves player base does not touch
Give a real reward for people to come check it on the test server. You want the test server fixed get rid of the stupid sp problem allot all players 250m unallocated sp so we can do things at our pace not wait for some dev to give me a sp bump... Give members a reward on tranquility for doing your testing this is your job not mine your getting paid by us dont forget that without your paying members you get no paycheck you guys seem to forget that all the time.................
Viktor Mulder
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#638 - 2014-05-16 08:27:23 UTC
How to turn off this nonsense ??? Its f-n ugly and stupid, and its just taking space on the screen ... ???QuestionIdea
Longdrinks
Zero Fun Allowed
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#639 - 2014-05-16 08:29:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Longdrinks
Please give the big black boxes everywhere a transparancy slider like the other ui parts. So a player so inclined could make it 100% transperant to aproximate the former inspace list of celestials and get rid of a the wasted space in other tooltips. An delay slider for the popup time would also be cool.
Colman Dietmar
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#640 - 2014-05-16 08:37:22 UTC
Wow, 32 pages later, many people still fail to understand one simple fact that is, the OFF switch is never coming. It's absent for a reason: it's how CCP tests these new things, by forcing us to use them.