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Encounter Surveillance System - Fix the anomaly...
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Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
#41 - 2014-05-15 17:47:06 UTC
Saisin wrote:
I really liked the concept of the encounter surveillance system when it was added to the game, as it was designed to encourage more PvP interactions and fun raiding action, but because of some unforeseen uses (and the test of the players' minds) it kind of fell short of providing the extra interactions intended in most cases.

I believe a possible fix would be that an encounter surveillance system should be considered as an hostile object if installed inside an anomaly, and should be attacked and destroyed quickly by the red NPCs there, much like they destroy left behind drones.

The trick to hide it in an anomaly is a nice trick found by players, but it defeats the purpose of having players having to defend it. Kuddos to the players that have found this oversight, but it needs to be fixed so that it retains its original purpose and truly generates interactions.



Wah? Fly a ship that can handle it? Bring friends?

Signature removed - CCP Eterne
Pubbie Spy
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#42 - 2014-05-15 17:53:44 UTC
Beekeeper Bob wrote:

Wah? Fly a ship that can handle it? Bring friends?

But then you can't be a brave solo space ronin who liberates isk from the corrupt goons~
Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
#43 - 2014-05-15 18:22:40 UTC
Pubbie Spy wrote:

But then you can't be a brave solo space ronin who liberates isk from the corrupt goons~

Your can be sarcastic toward those that play differently than you do, but much sarcasm can also be done toward those that hide behind their numbers, their ISK rents to their overlords, and as it is not enough obviously, their Npcs too..

This is why you guys defend the current status quo that reduces one of the game design that was encouraging solo or small gang raids... it is better to gain an extra 5% income +LP without having to do much to defend it...

Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

Check out the Minarchist Space Project
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#44 - 2014-05-15 19:09:23 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Give it up folks.
There is zero chance the cartels will allow CCP to alter the ESS mechanics, unless it is another buff.
The ISK is just too easy for the cartels to allow anyone to mess with it.

Though I am looking forward to when CCP introduces the ESS to the most intense high sec L4 missioning systems and Incursion systems, and then tell the high sec player base it is an improvement to their income and game content.


The primary payout of mention is actually LP, which we take to highsec and bulk redeem, tanking your L4 mission rewards in effective value.
This is the best way of doing it, taking from highsec and giving straight to nullsec, and was pushed for by Mynnna. For all your ranting, the cartels just get more powerful every year.

I mean, look, I can admit it here in the open and nothing bad will happen.
Saisin wrote:
Khanh'rhh wrote:
The higher ground to take here is "has actual experience of them", which I have, and you do not.

You'r wrong, I do. What kind of stuff do you take to gain this all-awareness powers?

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I am not "all aware" I merely know more than you on this specific topic, which isn't hard as your posts belie the fact you have none at all.
Quote:
Plenty are trying to obfuscate my point, but my main issue is that the current anomaly NPC protection adds up to the already existing benefit of placing them in your home turf. With the risk of the ESS being in such anomaly, it makes sense that most of the steal attempts currently are done with interceptors, as you can warp out easily of the anomaly if the ESS has indeed been deployed there.

It does make sense the cartels want to keep that capability to cheaply defend them this way, but this is at the expense of the original game design described by CCP when they introduced the ESS, which is encouraging small gangs PvP action around them.

Now if CCP was to provide statistics to show that indeed, even in the anomalies, small gangs are taking on ESS and they serve their design purpose, then I'd be glad to back off. Until proven otherwise, though, I simply do not believe the ESS are filling their design purpose.

Christ on a bike, this is a lot of words for "I can't work out how to steal from an ESS in an anom, CCP halp!"

Others do it all the time.

I'm not sure if you're aware, but the fact that what you are saying isn't happening, is, is a death-knell to your argument.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#45 - 2014-05-15 19:12:53 UTC
FYI chuckles, it's not "obfuscation" to point out that other people have worked out how to do it, and you're pointing to a problem that doesn't exist.

I may as well go and make a thread complaining all the stargates in New Eden are broken, and when people say "no khanhrhhrhhh thats an archon it cant use gate you are doing it wrong" I will just say "THAT'S BESIDES THE POINT AND IS JUST WHAT THE GATE CARTELS WANT YOU TO ACCEPT!!!"

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Thalen Draganos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#46 - 2014-05-15 20:06:50 UTC
Saisin wrote:
Pubbie Spy wrote:

But then you can't be a brave solo space ronin who liberates isk from the corrupt goons~

Your can be sarcastic toward those that play differently than you do, but much sarcasm can also be done toward those that hide behind their numbers, their ISK rents to their overlords, and as it is not enough obviously, their Npcs too..

This is why you guys defend the current status quo that reduces one of the game design that was encouraging solo or small gang raids... it is better to gain an extra 5% income +LP without having to do much to defend it...

The ESS was not designed to sit some where to only be defended by a fleet. Which seems to be what you are asking for.

ESS are stolen from all the time. Why can't you adapt your game play to be able to learn from others that are able to? Are you suggesting that frigate sized, or poorly fit ships flown by noobs, are the only ones that should be used to try to steal from them? That's just dumb.
In this game, just like in life, you either adapt to the challenge, or go on to something else. Simple as that. Oh and I would say the same thing if I were in any other alliance for the past several years like i have been in Goons.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2014-05-15 21:00:55 UTC
Saisin wrote:
Again, allowing ESS in anomalies is preventing the ESS to be what they were designed to be.

i think you got it wrong. The sole purpose of ESS was 5% (or how big was it?) increase of 0.0 sec income.
And ESS does it well.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Pubbie Spy
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#48 - 2014-05-15 21:12:16 UTC
Saisin wrote:
Pubbie Spy wrote:

But then you can't be a brave solo space ronin who liberates isk from the corrupt goons~

Your can be sarcastic toward those that play differently than you do, but much sarcasm can also be done toward those that hide behind their numbers, their ISK rents to their overlords, and as it is not enough obviously, their Npcs too..

This is why you guys defend the current status quo that reduces one of the game design that was encouraging solo or small gang raids... it is better to gain an extra 5% income +LP without having to do much to defend it...


Dinsdale alt spotted
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#49 - 2014-05-15 21:28:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Dinsdale Pirannha
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Give it up folks.
There is zero chance the cartels will allow CCP to alter the ESS mechanics, unless it is another buff.
The ISK is just too easy for the cartels to allow anyone to mess with it.

Though I am looking forward to when CCP introduces the ESS to the most intense high sec L4 missioning systems and Incursion systems, and then tell the high sec player base it is an improvement to their income and game content.


The primary payout of mention is actually LP, which we take to highsec and bulk redeem, tanking your L4 mission rewards in effective value.
This is the best way of doing it, taking from highsec and giving straight to nullsec, and was pushed for by Mynnna. For all your ranting, the cartels just get more powerful every year.

I mean, look, I can admit it here in the open and nothing bad will happen.


Yup, you can, and nothing will indeed happen.
I agree with everything you said, because it has all played out precisely that way, and will continue to.

The only question is how long it will take to hammer high sec income generation so hard that high sec players can no longer support their gamestyle at all, and how many subs will be lost.

You guys have that roadmap, and given there are clearly zero repercussions anymore for revealing that, so why tell us all? Or is that something you leave for the dev's to do?
Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
#50 - 2014-05-15 21:48:36 UTC
Thalen Draganos wrote:

The ESS was not designed to sit some where to only be defended by a fleet...


Wrong...
from here

The Encounter Surveillance System is a structure that allows nullsec pirate hunters to optionally increase the rewards of their efforts in exchange for increased risk. This has the effect of giving players more control over their risks and rewards they encounter, as well as providing engaging player interaction as small groups of players can roam through hostile space and attempt to steal riches from the ESS modules deployed throughout nullsec space.

When we announced the last iteration of the ESS structure, many players indicated to us that they believed that the risk/reward balance of the structure was out of whack. It was too easy for fast ships to steal ISK from the ESS before the local residents would be able to scramble their defenses, and the potential benefits would not be worth the increased risk to player’s wealth generation.

The game design was really clear about these goals, and the anomaly issue has just replaced "scrambling the defense fleets" with "let the NPCs do the defense job, and may be we can finish of the remaining of the raiders, after they have been under NPC fire for 3mn...".

This is not what was intended.


Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

Check out the Minarchist Space Project
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#51 - 2014-05-15 22:46:18 UTC
When the ESS was introduced, the goons collectively wailed like stuck pigs. Cries of "muh bounties!" echoed on the forums for weeks. It was actually quite entertaining. Eventually, CCP caved and changed the ESS.

I'm not saying they weren't right to complain about it or that the ESS was a particularly good idea in it's original form, but the above is precisely what happened, and the ESS isn't too likely to change at this point. vOv
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#52 - 2014-05-15 22:56:42 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
When the ESS was introduced, the goons collectively wailed like stuck pigs. Cries of "muh bounties!" echoed on the forums for weeks. It was actually quite entertaining. Eventually, CCP caved and changed the ESS.

I'm not saying they weren't right to complain about it or that the ESS was a particularly good idea in it's original form, but the above is precisely what happened, and the ESS isn't too likely to change at this point. vOv



Stuck pigs don't usually constructively point out the flaws in the premise and offer a rational alternative that actually meets the stated designs of a thing, so your use of that analogy confuses me.
That said thank you for then winding back your comment to say we were right to suggest alternatives.

I think I missed the point of your post, though?

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#53 - 2014-05-15 22:59:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Give it up folks.
There is zero chance the cartels will allow CCP to alter the ESS mechanics, unless it is another buff.
The ISK is just too easy for the cartels to allow anyone to mess with it.

Though I am looking forward to when CCP introduces the ESS to the most intense high sec L4 missioning systems and Incursion systems, and then tell the high sec player base it is an improvement to their income and game content.


The primary payout of mention is actually LP, which we take to highsec and bulk redeem, tanking your L4 mission rewards in effective value.
This is the best way of doing it, taking from highsec and giving straight to nullsec, and was pushed for by Mynnna. For all your ranting, the cartels just get more powerful every year.

I mean, look, I can admit it here in the open and nothing bad will happen.


Yup, you can, and nothing will indeed happen.
I agree with everything you said, because it has all played out precisely that way, and will continue to.

The only question is how long it will take to hammer high sec income generation so hard that high sec players can no longer support their gamestyle at all, and how many subs will be lost.

You guys have that roadmap, and given there are clearly zero repercussions anymore for revealing that, so why tell us all? Or is that something you leave for the dev's to do?


You're a very high effort troll, din. Never sure whether to be impressed or repulsed at the level of effort imparted. That said, don't go for the obvious bait because you will keep people hooked longer if they don't see you swinging at every ironic-post about cartels.

If you're not actually just the same guy who posts under Snot Shot as I suspect, then speak to him as he's kept a load of people hooked for years by pitching it at just the right Poes-law level.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#54 - 2014-05-15 23:05:03 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Khanh'rhh wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
When the ESS was introduced, the goons collectively wailed like stuck pigs. Cries of "muh bounties!" echoed on the forums for weeks. It was actually quite entertaining. Eventually, CCP caved and changed the ESS.

I'm not saying they weren't right to complain about it or that the ESS was a particularly good idea in it's original form, but the above is precisely what happened, and the ESS isn't too likely to change at this point. vOv



Stuck pigs don't usually constructively point out the flaws in the premise and offer a rational alternative that actually meets the stated designs of a thing, so your use of that analogy confuses me.
That said thank you for then winding back your comment to say we were right to suggest alternatives.

I think I missed the point of your post, though?

Slow day at work, also calling the bulk of the ESS feedback from you guys at the time "constructive," well.....thanks for the laugh.

Also, I didn't wind my comment back. You guys did whine and moan. You guys did cry "muh bounties!", though not necessarily in those exact words. CCP did cave into your demands. You may or may not have been justified in your initial response. None of those statements are in conflict with each other.

As to the point of my post? To inform those that weren't there as to what occurred at the time of the ESS release and why it isn't terribly likely that we'll see a change in the ESS any time soon.
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2014-05-16 01:42:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Falin Whalen
"The ESS is shite and anybody who deploys them in our space will be purged for screwing friendlies, and every one of them will be shot on sight." is the same as "BAW my bounties! GRR CCP!" Okay, nice tinfoil hat there Dinsdale alt.

EDIT: That was the consensus with the first iteration of the ESS, we didn't mind the 5% nerf to bounties. Some were a little hot about it, but it was because CCP didn't seem to be forthright in stating the reasons behind the 5% cut in bounties. If they had come right out and said because of economy reasons, everyone would have gone, "Oh, okay then." and still pointed out the flaws in the initial planned ESS implimentation.

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#56 - 2014-05-16 01:52:04 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Khanh'rhh wrote:

Stuck pigs don't usually constructively point out

Exhibit A, resorting to personal attacks:
Falin Whalen wrote:
"The ESS is shite and anybody who deploys them in our space will be purged for screwing friendlies, and every one of them will be shot on sight." is the same as "BAW my bounties! GRR CCP!" Okay, nice tinfoil hat there Dinsdale alt.

That didn't take long. Cool
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#57 - 2014-05-16 02:09:49 UTC
Saisin wrote:
Thalen Draganos wrote:

The ESS was not designed to sit some where to only be defended by a fleet...


Wrong...
from here

The Encounter Surveillance System is a structure that allows nullsec pirate hunters to optionally increase the rewards of their efforts in exchange for increased risk. This has the effect of giving players more control over their risks and rewards they encounter, as well as providing engaging player interaction as small groups of players can roam through hostile space and attempt to steal riches from the ESS modules deployed throughout nullsec space.

When we announced the last iteration of the ESS structure, many players indicated to us that they believed that the risk/reward balance of the structure was out of whack. It was too easy for fast ships to steal ISK from the ESS before the local residents would be able to scramble their defenses, and the potential benefits would not be worth the increased risk to player’s wealth generation.

The game design was really clear about these goals, and the anomaly issue has just replaced "scrambling the defense fleets" with "let the NPCs do the defense job, and may be we can finish of the remaining of the raiders, after they have been under NPC fire for 3mn...".

This is not what was intended.




Every time you repeat that post, and it is a repeat, I'm going to repeat the observation that 1 ship can completely disarm a hidden rally point trap and allow an interceptor in there, ie nothing about an the anomaly trap prevents CCPs stated goal of allowing small gangs to steal from the ESS.

Nowhere in that design brief do I see "1 pilot in 1 frigate to steal from every ESS in Deklein"
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#58 - 2014-05-16 09:03:21 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Slow day at work, also calling the bulk of the ESS feedback from you guys at the time "constructive," well.....thanks for the laugh.

Also, I didn't wind my comment back. You guys did whine and moan. You guys did cry "muh bounties!", though not necessarily in those exact words. CCP did cave into your demands. You may or may not have been justified in your initial response. None of those statements are in conflict with each other.

As to the point of my post? To inform those that weren't there as to what occurred at the time of the ESS release and why it isn't terribly likely that we'll see a change in the ESS any time soon.


Well then can you please provide the class with examples? I remember the feedback thread and all the feedback was on-point. Of course, the grrrGOONs crowd love to put on blinkers and convince themselves they're experiencing schadenfreude, which is why when they see feedback they just go "LOL GOON TEARS LOLLLLL!" and then "OH MAN ITS MORE TEARS LIKE THE OTHER TIMES!"

The original implimentation of the ESS was dumb, because CCP stated the design intent was:

a) To increase the amount of ISK you could make (individual income)
b) To decrease the amount of ISK you could make (on average)

That was their literal design aims. Mynnna pointed out that you could only make both these statements possible if you did (a) via LP, which then meets both seemingly conflicting design aims.

Pointing out CCPs flaws in thinking isn't "tears", friend, it's the literal point of feedback threads.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#59 - 2014-05-16 09:18:02 UTC
If you die to some pitiful k-space rats, how do you expect to fight a defense fleet with your small gang?

This thread is ridiculous.

Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
#60 - 2014-05-16 10:14:30 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:
If you die to some pitiful k-space rats, how do you expect to fight a defense fleet with your small gang?


It is not about dying or not to the rats, it is about the rats being used to help a defense that was initially designed to be exclusively player driven.

Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

Check out the Minarchist Space Project