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Dev Blog: CSM 9 Results!

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Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#361 - 2014-05-13 00:47:30 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:

But they do not really communicate, we have not gotten to the point that for all intents and purposes they are now communicating with the representatives of less than 10% of their players. And why, because the CSM has proven its self to be a poor communicator of the actual players wishes and desires, as well as more often acting as a mouth piece for CCP and not the players it supposedly represents.

Hell look at Malcanis, he went into the CSM to get 0.0s problems fixed but nothing can be done because of the road map and this is what the 4th different road map so far and they only ever seem to do up a new one when it has been shown they are failing at introducing the last one.

There has been great dev interaction on all of these threads - there's been a ton of back and forth in the industry threads (which basically went into an understandable lull during fanfest), the isotope change got altered based on feedback within a day, and plenty more. A thread about new ships is going to take a little while for the really good feedback to start gelling and it's not at all surprising there's not more Rise posting yet - most of the thread is "neat! neat!".

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#362 - 2014-05-13 01:09:12 UTC
I think this thread is a pretty good example of why CSM voting was so low.

What does CSM do, why should we vote for you (not what you push to have happen as that would be "Pet projects" but what is it that you in fact do?)
-Is not clearly outlined by CSM or the dev in charge of this.

Does CCP actually change anything because of CSM "participation" and what is an example of that?

If the CSM is actually effective, care to comment on the new industry changes?

Why are there only four (Malconis and Two Step im counting you in this figure even though you are no longer CSM) CSM reps posting here?
-invisible participation is invisible. For a thread thats worried about CSM visibility thats good?

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#363 - 2014-05-13 02:14:17 UTC
I thought we covered this.

There are so many avenues of communication that all the CSM covering ALL of them would be redundant, repetitive, and redundant.

So I am the forum person for the moment, the others drop in if the mood takes them, as you have seen CCP Leeloo also may stop by, especially if I point something specific out to her.

What you don't see is the number of forum links that are brought up in our private chats. Or you don't see when a discussion between the forum and devs is ongoing (but not about something you are interested in) like in this discussion with WH folks https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4558809#post4558809

But don't let an isolated example distract you from your narrative that the system in place to be the conduit between players and CCP is actually the blockage.

You won't find all the CSM here, you got me.

You won't find all the devs here, they are off devving. If, like LS in the example, above, you can present a well reasoned argument then a conversation may ensue. If you throw up your hands and declare yourself to be unsubbing or that Eve is dying then do not expect engagement from busy people.

This started as a thread about the CSM results. You voted or you didn't. If you didn't then you are in the majority of Eve players. Doesn't really matter to me, I got elected and I plan on trying to take your good ideas and comments forward and considering the rest before moving on. Rant, I'll read it. Argue persuasively and I will show it to others.

Unsub? Yer stuff, can I haz?

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)/¯
Circumstantial Evidence
#364 - 2014-05-13 02:18:21 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Well for the Winter summit, CCP LogiBro basically transcribed the discussions, which was awesome although he must have had white hot wrist tendons by the end of the 3rd day. So the minutes were 80% done by the time we'd flown home. The time delay was
[...]
2) Waiting for the teams involved to sign of on their relevent sections of the minutes. Since the minutes are released as a single document, the whole thing has to wait for the slowest responder. This part took effing ages.
With this post, the problem and solution: the summit is a series of meetings, so release a series of minutes :)
Frying Doom
#365 - 2014-05-13 02:21:32 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
I thought we covered this.

There are so many avenues of communication that all the CSM covering ALL of them would be redundant, repetitive, and redundant.

So I am the forum person for the moment, the others drop in if the mood takes them, as you have seen CCP Leeloo also may stop by, especially if I point something specific out to her.

What you don't see is the number of forum links that are brought up in our private chats. Or you don't see when a discussion between the forum and devs is ongoing (but not about something you are interested in) like in this discussion with WH folks https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4558809#post4558809

But don't let an isolated example distract you from your narrative that the system in place to be the conduit between players and CCP is actually the blockage.

You won't find all the CSM here, you got me.

You won't find all the devs here, they are off devving. If, like LS in the example, above, you can present a well reasoned argument then a conversation may ensue. If you throw up your hands and declare yourself to be unsubbing or that Eve is dying then do not expect engagement from busy people.

This started as a thread about the CSM results. You voted or you didn't. If you didn't then you are in the majority of Eve players. Doesn't really matter to me, I got elected and I plan on trying to take your good ideas and comments forward and considering the rest before moving on. Rant, I'll read it. Argue persuasively and I will show it to others.

Unsub? Yer stuff, can I haz?

m

Ok how a bout an easy example for you.

I talk to you, face to face.
Now I talk to someone else face to face and then they relate that message on to you.

Which is the better communication?

Or a more relevant example
Hundreds of people ***** in a forum thread and CCP responds to the thread and the complaints of the people in it
or
Hundreds of people ***** in a forum thread and the CSM says we will take this up with CCP and due to the NDA this is never heard from again.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#366 - 2014-05-13 02:28:13 UTC
It's a delegation thing.

We're pretty much delegated Mike to keep an eye on this kind of thread, while others of us spend the time we would spend here, working on other things.

In case you're interested, there's a 'csm badge' option in the search, so you can look up everyone's posts. Smile (The badge was only added to newcomers, like me, today)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Ali Aras
Nobody in Local
Deepwater Hooligans
#367 - 2014-05-13 02:36:52 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:

words

Me, I'm going for the lurker of the year award right here. I read a lot more than I post, for a lot of reasons that sum up to I'm bad at longer-form communication. I'll post once or twice but I do a lot more...well, actual conversing. Might change that up some this year, but if it ends up being an awkward thing, it'll get dropped in favor of continuing to focus on CSM work.

For me, you can find me on twitter (and if that doesn't work out, we can take it to Skype). I also run Space Hangouts, and there's one this Saturday at 20:00 on the subject of "PCU, and what do you do when you don't log in?" If you have a G+ account and a working mic, you can join up for a realtime conversation with me and whatever other suckers I can get, although I'll try to line up 1-2 well-known bittervets to balance out my still-relatively-young perspective.

http://warp-to-sun.tumblr.com -- my blog
DJ FunkyBacon
Rabid Ninja Space Monkey Inc.
Monkeys with Guns.
#368 - 2014-05-13 03:03:08 UTC  |  Edited by: DJ FunkyBacon
For me, Eve-O has never been my primary form of communication, thought I read it often. If you want to talk to me about something I have so many ways to communicate it's not even funny. We can start with Twitter - @FunkyBacon http://facebook.com/funkybacon also works. I have a blog at http://funkybacon.blogspot.com Eve-Mail and a weekly show on http://eve-radio.com Saturdays 00:00 Eve Time (That's Friday night in North America).

All of those are venues where I'm happy to talk about any concerns that the lowsec or Factional Warfare community would like to discuss. With regards to my blog and weekly radio show, those are also very VERY public, and less likely to get lost in a sea of forum postings on Eve-O for easy reference.

Radio Host, Blogger, Lowsec Resident, PvP Afficionado.

funkybacon.com - Blog

FunkyBacon on Twitter
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#369 - 2014-05-13 04:30:21 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
I thought we covered this.

There are so many avenues of communication that all the CSM covering ALL of them would be redundant, repetitive, and redundant.

So I am the forum person for the moment, the others drop in if the mood takes them, as you have seen CCP Leeloo also may stop by, especially if I point something specific out to her.

What you don't see is the number of forum links that are brought up in our private chats. Or you don't see when a discussion between the forum and devs is ongoing (but not about something you are interested in) like in this discussion with WH folks https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4558809#post4558809

But don't let an isolated example distract you from your narrative that the system in place to be the conduit between players and CCP is actually the blockage.

You won't find all the CSM here, you got me.

You won't find all the devs here, they are off devving. If, like LS in the example, above, you can present a well reasoned argument then a conversation may ensue. If you throw up your hands and declare yourself to be unsubbing or that Eve is dying then do not expect engagement from busy people.

This started as a thread about the CSM results. You voted or you didn't. If you didn't then you are in the majority of Eve players. Doesn't really matter to me, I got elected and I plan on trying to take your good ideas and comments forward and considering the rest before moving on. Rant, I'll read it. Argue persuasively and I will show it to others.

Unsub? Yer stuff, can I haz?

m


I cant tell if you are trying to respond to me, or just the thread in general. You are commenting on things that i am asking but are strangely specific about things i have not said.
This thread did start as a CSM results but one of the statements by the DEV involved needed some explanation and seemed to be a discussion point open to discussion. CSM candidate visibility and player apathy.

You voted or you didn't. If you didn't then you are in the majority of Eve players.

and thats part of the problem described by the dev blog that i want to talk about.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#370 - 2014-05-13 05:19:37 UTC
Kusum Fawn wrote:

I cant tell if you are trying to respond to me, or just the thread in general. You are commenting on things that i am asking but are strangely specific about things i have not said.


When I am answering a specific person I try to quote them, when it is more a general tone . . . I just go for it

next parts are Not at you, Kusum

Now the last few posts show that I can ask for a few others on the council to chime in, if they care to but, as some said, they leave most of this stuff to me.

Fun bit of math. Assume the 31000 (give or take) people who voted would rather talk directly to a dev since the CSM are not facilitating communication. Further imagine that they figure they only need ten minutes to explain how the game could be fixed.

(31000*10)/60 = 5166 hours of chat time. That is assuming on dev and not meeting with teams which would take a multiple of that in man hours.

assume an 8 hour day. 5166/8=645.75 days 5 days a week would give you 129 weeks, or a shade over two years in which time the Game would have gone through how many iterations?

If the dev spent all those days/weeks/years listening to you how would he find time to program or tell other devs what was the new great idea and what bits were not so good, not so great?

Oh I know I was pulling numbers out of my ass on this one and that no where near that number would want to talk to the devs. But the idea behind it and behind the CSM is that we don't have to find out what the real numbers are. You have us. The CSM

If you don't like who we are or what we do or how we do it there are quite a few options. Most have been mentioned in this thread already. If I come across as mean or mocking then the others, above, have offered contacts as well not to mention this thread https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=343862&find=unread I posted and is stickied in Jita Park that shows how to get in touch with most of us.

For now, I do the forums, but I am not the CSM9, I am one member who is willing to come here and listen and answer. I am one of 14 people who, for better or worse, were elected by the people who voted.

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)/¯
Gargep Farrow
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#371 - 2014-05-13 05:46:11 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
please don't encourage him to write a blog it'd probably get all the highsec carebears talking like he does

And we wonder why people cant find the interest to vote. A whole topic concerned with why people didnt vote, then the above is posted telling everyone you dont want to hear from people who think differently than you do. This is a clear example of why Eve is going to go downhill.
Frying Doom
#372 - 2014-05-13 05:53:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Honestly Mike if you still don't get how the CSM blocks communication with the games players and how every other game does it even though it does use developer/staff time.

You never will.

Good luck representing less than 10% of the player base though. I am sure they will be happy.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#373 - 2014-05-13 13:13:12 UTC
Part of the problem is that the word "communication" is broad and vague.

If someone expects that greater communication means that someone will finally give their idea about AFK cloaky campers bumping their tugboat Q-ship the respect that they believe it deserves, then any communication from, say, mynnna, is going to be disappointing to them, not least because of the tremendous odds that the communication will contain the word 'idiot' at least once. The latter is not ideal, but there's not much to be done about the former. "Better communication" does not mean "embracing every idea posted to (the wrong forum in) General Discussion," and it can't if the CSM is to have any value as a curator of player ideas.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Frying Doom
#374 - 2014-05-13 14:47:58 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Part of the problem is that the word "communication" is broad and vague.

If someone expects that greater communication means that someone will finally give their idea about AFK cloaky campers bumping their tugboat Q-ship the respect that they believe it deserves, then any communication from, say, mynnna, is going to be disappointing to them, not least because of the tremendous odds that the communication will contain the word 'idiot' at least once. The latter is not ideal, but there's not much to be done about the former. "Better communication" does not mean "embracing every idea posted to (the wrong forum in) General Discussion," and it can't if the CSM is to have any value as a curator of player ideas.

I should have been more specific, when I say communication, I mean active communication. The ability to actively listen to the community and respond appropriately to them. To be both a broadcaster and a receiver of messages.

And no not implementing every hair brained idea. Personally I feel the community has spoken as far as how they feel about the CSMs ability to communicate their ideas to CCP.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#375 - 2014-05-14 02:41:09 UTC
Tarikla wrote:
And to comment on the low amount of Votes :

- 1 Announcment in Launcher, for most of the time second/thrid slide, so not really effective
- 1 News at mid-election to inform that Elections were opened, quickly overshadowed by some DevBlogs
- No "In game Login Screen Announcment" like there was every single year before
- No Candidates who actually reached out in Game to High Sec. I remember having at least 1 or 2 CSM candidates sending Eve-Mails to as much people as they could, this year around no one did it.

I would also say that each year players who are involved feels that the CSM is less and less meaningful and more and more of a "advisor" than anything else, which dosen't help getting people to actually read and vote :)
The Mittani raised awareness of the CSM, but it's slipping back to the way it was in his absence. Never before did highsec have as much power in the CSM as when the Face of Goonswarm rose up and let the galaxy know just what a CSM candidate was capable of.

CSM 5 was nearly as dry as any before it, but The Mittani still made excellent and largely unknown strides forward. This was noted by several, and he used this leverage to gain popularity for his phenomenal landslide victory in CSM 6. And CSM 7 saw an unprecedented number of fresh highsec candidates running and even being elected.

CSM 7 did great things, but without a flamboyant showoff to let everyone know about it, it mostly went unnoticed by the majority of the playerbase. People went back to playing the game, satisfied that everything was looking good and they didn't have to think in order to have fun in the game. Bugs are low as ever, new features are getting properly tested, and game balance is at an all-time high and steadily improving. Anyone who has been around for at least 2 years knows the great strides made by CCP. People became complacent. Fast-forward to today: CSM is still doing well, CCP is still doing well, and people are still complacent.


TL;DR: Everything is fine. If anything starts to go downhill, people will barge onto the forums and the CSM will matter again. But until then, chill and enjoy EVE.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#376 - 2014-05-14 05:44:50 UTC
So the tl;dr is that people want the CSM to be entertainment on top of all the other responsibilities involved.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Josef Djugashvilis
#377 - 2014-05-14 07:49:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Josef Djugashvilis
I have always taken it for granted that the CSM keep an eye on the forums, that they do not always respond does not concern me at all as I sincerely believe that most - all of the CSM take their responsibilities seriously.

Although I would like more folk to vote, it would show that folk want to be engaged and it is good publicity for CCP, we will still get an elected CSM every year.

Of course large organised voting blocs like the goons will get 'their man' onto the CSM every time, it really does not matter as the bloc rep will set aside partisan politics for the greater good and, even if say a goon CSM was foolish enough to only push a goon agenda, CCP would soon park said rep to one side and ignore him/her.

This is not a signature.
Jethrow Toralen
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#378 - 2014-05-14 08:09:59 UTC
Tarikla wrote:

- No Candidates who actually reached out in Game to High Sec. I remember having at least 1 or 2 CSM candidates sending Eve-Mails to as much people as they could, this year around no one did it.

I did receive one mass mailout titled 'A Personal Message from the Chairman of the Council of Stellar Management'. It wasn't really a personal message... seeing as it was forwarded to another 50 people. And he wasn't actually a candidate this year, but it at least one person encouraged players to vote.

(Appeared to be filtered for characters created after the last CSM)
Frying Doom
#379 - 2014-05-14 09:05:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Tarikla wrote:
And to comment on the low amount of Votes :

- 1 Announcment in Launcher, for most of the time second/thrid slide, so not really effective
- 1 News at mid-election to inform that Elections were opened, quickly overshadowed by some DevBlogs
- No "In game Login Screen Announcment" like there was every single year before
- No Candidates who actually reached out in Game to High Sec. I remember having at least 1 or 2 CSM candidates sending Eve-Mails to as much people as they could, this year around no one did it.

I would also say that each year players who are involved feels that the CSM is less and less meaningful and more and more of a "advisor" than anything else, which dosen't help getting people to actually read and vote :)
The Mittani raised awareness of the CSM, but it's slipping back to the way it was in his absence. Never before did highsec have as much power in the CSM as when the Face of Goonswarm rose up and let the galaxy know just what a CSM candidate was capable of.

CSM 5 was nearly as dry as any before it, but The Mittani still made excellent and largely unknown strides forward. This was noted by several, and he used this leverage to gain popularity for his phenomenal landslide victory in CSM 6. And CSM 7 saw an unprecedented number of fresh highsec candidates running and even being elected.

CSM 7 did great things, but without a flamboyant showoff to let everyone know about it, it mostly went unnoticed by the majority of the playerbase. People went back to playing the game, satisfied that everything was looking good and they didn't have to think in order to have fun in the game. Bugs are low as ever, new features are getting properly tested, and game balance is at an all-time high and steadily improving. Anyone who has been around for at least 2 years knows the great strides made by CCP. People became complacent. Fast-forward to today: CSM is still doing well, CCP is still doing well, and people are still complacent.


TL;DR: Everything is fine. If anything starts to go downhill, people will barge onto the forums and the CSM will matter again. But until then, chill and enjoy EVE.

CSM5 elected members just for truth
Mynxee
Ankhesentapemkah
Dierdra Vaal
Korvin
Vuk Lau
TeaDaze
Meissa Anunthiel
Trebor Daehdoow
Sokratesz

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#380 - 2014-05-14 17:06:21 UTC
Jethrow Toralen wrote:

(Appeared to be filtered for characters created after the last CSM)


I chatted with Trebor about the parameters he used for his mailing list. It was interesting stuff. Much better targetted than most.

As to getting the vote out, I am surprised none of you mention The Mittanis 'editorial' decision to say NOTHING about the election while it was ongoing. Not taking sides is one thing, running the silent treatment is another. If it had a detrimental effect on the voter turnout . . .who do you think profited?

Does the community fansites have an obligation to help with voter awareness or is it all upon CCP?

Should CCP give rewards encouragement to sites that support the election, do interviews and debates?

If so then Cap Stable, Legacy of a Capsuleer, and Declarations of war should get some boosts (among other podcasts) as should quite a few blogs that dealt with the issues and interviewed or analyzed the candidates. Maybe recruiting the community to help get out the vote and give them a reason to help will be part of the answer.

m


Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)/¯