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Dev blog: Researching, the Future

First post First post First post
Author
Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#901 - 2014-05-13 20:47:50 UTC
Working the customer service phones for amazon doesn't make you a qualified developer.

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege. 

Rollaz
AirHogs
Hogs Collective
#902 - 2014-05-13 21:19:56 UTC
Zakarumit CZ wrote:
I have got one major question:
Is CCP considering some form of reimbursement for people with BPOs researched over ME/PE 10 ? There are tons of people and prints which have ME 100 PE 50 and people have spend some noricable time to achieve that, fuelling their POSs and using their skills and research slots. They should receive something in reward when you delete days and months or maybe even years of their work. I think most reasonable thing I heard here was to give them some special material, which can be used as a bonus material when researching, which would allow to research instantly for the same research time you delete on their prints.

And please dont say its waste of time, not worth it, etc. It gave those people advantage over others and it was worth it and there was risk involved when trying to achieve this, as NPC stations slots, especially for ME research, are not available easily. There should be some kind of reward when you take it away from them.


Since I got zero response from my previous post, I'll just ask CCP Greyscale a question... hopefully I'll get an answer.

^^^^^ read his post because it's a lot calmer then mine was ^^^^^

What is the current plan to compensate all the bpo's that are researched OVER ME10, if there is no plan, are you talking about making one?

HAVE FUN - MAKE ISK - NO DRAMA No Api's   -   No Wars   -   No Awoxing   -   No Kidding! Hogs is OPEN for recruiting!  Join our in-game channel "Airhogs"

LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#903 - 2014-05-13 21:22:35 UTC
Seith Kali wrote:
Working the customer service phones for amazon doesn't make you a qualified developer.



Anyone actually in the software industry knows that the "India Call Center" is an out of date notion.

Wages in India and China have more than doubled in the last 7 years, almost tripled in the last 10 years.. All the programmer jobs are moving to India and China, while the call center jobs are again relocating to get lower wages.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/26/business/philippines-overtakes-india-as-hub-of-call-centers.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0


LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#904 - 2014-05-13 21:23:26 UTC
Rollaz wrote:
Zakarumit CZ wrote:
I have got one major question:
Is CCP considering some form of reimbursement for people with BPOs researched over ME/PE 10 ? There are tons of people and prints which have ME 100 PE 50 and people have spend some noricable time to achieve that, fuelling their POSs and using their skills and research slots. They should receive something in reward when you delete days and months or maybe even years of their work. I think most reasonable thing I heard here was to give them some special material, which can be used as a bonus material when researching, which would allow to research instantly for the same research time you delete on their prints.

And please dont say its waste of time, not worth it, etc. It gave those people advantage over others and it was worth it and there was risk involved when trying to achieve this, as NPC stations slots, especially for ME research, are not available easily. There should be some kind of reward when you take it away from them.


Since I got zero response from my previous post, I'll just ask CCP Greyscale a question... hopefully I'll get an answer.

^^^^^ read his post because it's a lot calmer then mine was ^^^^^

What is the current plan to compensate all the bpo's that are researched OVER ME10, if there is no plan, are you talking about making one?


None!
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#905 - 2014-05-13 22:02:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Medalyn Isis
CCP Greyscale wrote:
We are currently of a mind to shift invented BPCs so they have positive (or at worst 0) ME and TE figures. This a) prevents the removal of extra materials giving invention an extra-hard kick, and in particular b) prevents every invented T2 item from requiring two of the relevant T1 items (due to always rounding up materials). This will probably put all invented BPCs in the 1-5% ME/2-10% TE range, with decryptors adjusted to match.

This would be absolutely great. It would put invention on a more even footing with T2 BPO manufacture, and would also solve the extra materials dilemma.

Please keep in decryptors though, if anything I'd like to see more added in future with more unique and different bonuses. That way clued up inventors can customise their production chains more effectively by selecting the right decryptors for their needs.

CCP Greyscale wrote:
Have another look at NPC nullsec stations, see if they need some assistance.

Great again, very happy to see this is on the agenda. There are quite a few NPC null sec manufacturers that would be adversely affected due to the poor quality of stations compared to high sec and low sec.

CCP Greyscale wrote:
We're currently leaning heavily towards calculating ME for the job as a whole, not per-run, probably with a limiter that requires every run always consumes at least one of every material (to prevent 9 apocs -> 10 paladins shenanigans).

I don't see why not just calculate it on a per run basis, that would make a lot more simple and make more sense in my opinion. But I am quite ambivalent on this issue really as I will just adapt to whatever method you decide implement.

I really like the changes anyway and thank you for the continued feedback.
Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#906 - 2014-05-13 22:07:07 UTC
Meladyn's comments are pretty spot on really. I'm sure there will be another thread for invention when the time comes, a decryptor rebalance is another issue.

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege. 

Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#907 - 2014-05-13 22:07:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Medalyn Isis
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Zakarumit CZ wrote:
OopsSorry, missed it.
But then I must ask - whats the benefit? If you will be able to invent better ME but it will cost proportionally more, the cost will remain the same, probably also the profit. Whats the point really? If its really because of the problems CCP Greyscale highlighted, i.e. extra materials and need of 2* t1 item, isnt it overkill? Isnt there really any reasonable way how to bypass those issues without changing all decryptors and materials needed for all items? What?



From an inventor's POV, depending on how decryptors are handled, it's not a major change.

It's a more major change from a T2 BPO perspective, but they should still be perfectly profitable to make (after all, there's no invention cost involved, which is reasonably major) and they can run for longer, which drops the build cost further.

They are also able to get to ME10, whereas a T2 BPC will still be able to get to a maximum of ME5. So T2 BPO holders are still going to be sitting on a golden egg. I don't see why CCP don't just go the whole hog and make decryptors allow a T2 BPC to achieve ME10.
Javajunky
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#908 - 2014-05-13 22:14:50 UTC
+1 Greyscale

I don't care what anyway says about you...

Come to Eve Vegas, what's the booze of choice for the short people? I got you covered.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#909 - 2014-05-13 22:22:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenneth Feld
Rollaz wrote:
Zakarumit CZ wrote:
I have got one major question:
Is CCP considering some form of reimbursement for people with BPOs researched over ME/PE 10 ? There are tons of people and prints which have ME 100 PE 50 and people have spend some noricable time to achieve that, fuelling their POSs and using their skills and research slots. They should receive something in reward when you delete days and months or maybe even years of their work. I think most reasonable thing I heard here was to give them some special material, which can be used as a bonus material when researching, which would allow to research instantly for the same research time you delete on their prints.

And please dont say its waste of time, not worth it, etc. It gave those people advantage over others and it was worth it and there was risk involved when trying to achieve this, as NPC stations slots, especially for ME research, are not available easily. There should be some kind of reward when you take it away from them.


Since I got zero response from my previous post, I'll just ask CCP Greyscale a question... hopefully I'll get an answer.

^^^^^ read his post because it's a lot calmer then mine was ^^^^^

What is the current plan to compensate all the bpo's that are researched OVER ME10, if there is no plan, are you talking about making one?


They have dodged this question successfully for the past week, that either means they don't know or they haven't decided yet.

They did see the previous question a while back and were generally against some form of compensation...lemme see if i can find the link


At the top of the page there is the little dev post thing, lets you scroll thru the dev answers: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4522633#post4522633
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#910 - 2014-05-13 23:07:44 UTC
Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
We are currently of a mind to shift invented BPCs so they have positive (or at worst 0) ME and TE figures. This a) prevents the removal of extra materials giving invention an extra-hard kick, and in particular b) prevents every invented T2 item from requiring two of the relevant T1 items (due to always rounding up materials). This will probably put all invented BPCs in the 1-5% ME/2-10% TE range, with decryptors adjusted to match. We may adjust T2 build costs upwards across the board to put the net T2 resource usage roughly where it is currently, so we don't end up nerfing the demand for T2 components. (This obviously also serves to close the gap somewhat between invention and T2 BPOs; this is not a goal here but it's an acceptable side-effect.)


At the moment

BPO = limited numbers of production at an advantage of material cost

BPC = unlimited numbers of production at a disadvantage of material cost

Proposed

BPC = unlimited numbers of production at a slight to null disadvantage of material cost

BPO = ???

There is a interaction between the two in the current environment - an advantage matching a disadvantage. Your proposal plus improvements to other parts of invention (removal of clickfest) will make tech 2 production simply a slightly more complicated version of tech 1 production. Margins will erode and the perverse effect will probably be a less vibrant market as most people move to manufacturing for their group's consumption, like tech 1 is now.


edit:

Modules and ships are different - ME currently has little effect on modules material requirement but has a large effect on ship material requirement. Perhaps as a compromise you have your change affect only module BPC's.


BPO still has the advantage in ME, plus the advantage in not needing to pay for the invention jobs and materials (including expected losses from failures), plus the advantage of being able to set up longer runs and thus leverage the batch discount better.

MailDeadDrop wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
As mentioned at Fanfest, we're looking very hard at a lowsec-only component assembly array (not for fuel, RAMs etc) that has a reasonable ME bonus, to allow lowsec cap manufacturers to stay ballpark competitive with nullsec builders after the refine changes.
This one is a bit of an off-topic reply: Care to elaborate on why you think it is necessary to special-case "fuel, RAMs, etc."? (I'm just curious.)

MDD


It's not totally special-casing, it's just keeping this structure targeted at what it's supposed to be solving - capital manufacturing - with minimum of possible unintended consequences. Boosting T2 component manufacturing also is interesting and hard to explain not doing; boosting fuel blocks, RAMs and other things built in a normal component assembly array just because they had to go *somewhere* adds risk that we don't feel like taking on right now :)

Rollaz wrote:
Zakarumit CZ wrote:
I have got one major question:
Is CCP considering some form of reimbursement for people with BPOs researched over ME/PE 10 ? There are tons of people and prints which have ME 100 PE 50 and people have spend some noricable time to achieve that, fuelling their POSs and using their skills and research slots. They should receive something in reward when you delete days and months or maybe even years of their work. I think most reasonable thing I heard here was to give them some special material, which can be used as a bonus material when researching, which would allow to research instantly for the same research time you delete on their prints.

And please dont say its waste of time, not worth it, etc. It gave those people advantage over others and it was worth it and there was risk involved when trying to achieve this, as NPC stations slots, especially for ME research, are not available easily. There should be some kind of reward when you take it away from them.


Since I got zero response from my previous post, I'll just ask CCP Greyscale a question... hopefully I'll get an answer.

^^^^^ read his post because it's a lot calmer then mine was ^^^^^

What is the current plan to compensate all the bpo's that are researched OVER ME10, if there is no plan, are you talking about making one?


Considering it, not 100% committed to it, still soliciting feedback on what exactly people would find reasonable so we can figure out if there's a good balance to be struck.

LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#911 - 2014-05-13 23:18:07 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Considering it, not 100% committed to it, still soliciting feedback on what exactly people would find reasonable so we can figure out if there's a good balance to be struck.



Like... NOT breaking research by moving to whole %s, sloppy rounding reduction instead of increase, rounding at the job level and and always rounding up? NOT breaking high sec POS by moving to infinite slots with no scaling to jobs in a particular facility? Not crushing small corps with the massive advantage teams and outpost material reductions will give to the mega power blocks?


You're continued thrashing about with last minute hacks simply show that none of this industry change was actually thought threw.

What easily could have been simple UI updates instead is game breaking, destroying industry for all but those in the mega power clocks.

Greyscale, is your goal to bankrupt CCP?
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#912 - 2014-05-13 23:19:52 UTC
The proposed changes to ME on tech 2 BPCs are welcome (as a partial solution to the T2 BPO problem) but also will cause a dramatic shakeup in the value of decryptors.

Currently for module/ammo production (which drives the price of Symmetry and sometimes the cheaper decryptors) PE is the most important stat and ME is relatively unimportant.

For small ship production and small to medium rigs, invention throughput (expected runs * total probability) is the most important stat and ME and PE are relatively unimportant.

For medium ship and large rig production (which drives the price of Accelerant decryptors) a combination of throughput and ME matter.

And finally for large ship and capital rig production (which drive the price of Process decryptors) ME is almost all that matters.

This whole ecosystem will be shaken up as much by these proposed changes as they were when Odyssey made decryptors cheap enough to use (outside of HICs and larger ships where they were already worthwhile).

I am not opposed to such changes, but I do need to prepare for them....

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Zalmun
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#913 - 2014-05-14 00:04:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Zalmun
Will the changes affect existing T2 BPCs (as in adjust their TE/ME to the new standard), or only new T2 BPCs invented after the changes go live?
Dramaticus
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#914 - 2014-05-14 00:46:06 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Considering it, not 100% committed to it, still soliciting feedback on what exactly people would find reasonable so we can figure out if there's a good balance to be struck.



Perhaps some sort of CONCORD issued medal for keeping research lines clogged for years on end because the concept of diminishing returns is completely foreign to them.

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them

LoftyLazerus Thesiant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#915 - 2014-05-14 01:20:18 UTC
Dramaticus wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Considering it, not 100% committed to it, still soliciting feedback on what exactly people would find reasonable so we can figure out if there's a good balance to be struck.



Perhaps some sort of CONCORD issued medal for keeping research lines clogged for years on end because the concept of diminishing returns is completely foreign to them.


Dramaticus, lols, good stuff

It's Fine, give em a cookie and some milk if it will shut them up.
They have a 10, they are getting a 10 back. It's not CCPs fault they didn't understand ME.

(btw ... those overworked BPO's/BPC's were only valuable to them and people like them,
I know I damn sure never bought one ) Smile
Rollaz
AirHogs
Hogs Collective
#916 - 2014-05-14 03:45:39 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Considering it, not 100% committed to it, still soliciting feedback on what exactly people would find reasonable so we can figure out if there's a good balance to be struck.



I've heard about research credits being proposed, but we'd need to come up with something that's comparable to the effort put in that will replace the "pre-effort" post patch in a comparable way. (for example a BS bpo to ME100 pre-patch would take 6 months, post patch it's also going to take 6 months. But those that have put in just 45 days into an ME10 now can expect to catch up on the patch for a serious disadvantage.

I disagree with the "meta" idea, as this would not compensate the effort spent.

ie: I agree if someone researched a BS bpo to ME300, I don't think they should get much more then someone that has one with ME100, but there is a significant number of bpo's out there that have been researched between 50-100, that without some compensation will obliterate trillions of isk of investment and years of research effort. We put up our own pos's, fueled them, defended them from wars for years.

CCP Greyscale, we need you to "get 100% committed" that something is going to be done here please. What other ideas have been presented that you all feel would be a good balance?

HAVE FUN - MAKE ISK - NO DRAMA No Api's   -   No Wars   -   No Awoxing   -   No Kidding! Hogs is OPEN for recruiting!  Join our in-game channel "Airhogs"

Alexander McKeon
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#917 - 2014-05-14 03:49:12 UTC
LoftyLazerus Thesiant wrote:

It's Fine, give em a cookie and some milk if it will shut them up.
They have a 10, they are getting a 10 back. It's not CCPs fault they didn't understand ME.

(btw ... those overworked BPO's/BPC's were only valuable to them and people like them,
I know I damn sure never bought one ) Smile
I'll grant that an ME 300 bpo is over-researched to a silly extent, but what about an ME 10 vs. ME 50 capital module BPO? That represents a saving of a million isk / run for some modules, which is hardly wasted. That's why I previously argued for some sort of diminishing return research time credit, which I still would argue to be the fairest way to compensate folks.

Another (perhaps simpler to implement) solution would be to award BPCs for limited edition items such as Gecko drones, T2 items / ships (at a high ME/PE), faction items, etc. with the number / quality awarded varying according to how researched the bpos were.
Rollaz
AirHogs
Hogs Collective
#918 - 2014-05-14 04:04:19 UTC
Alexander McKeon wrote:
LoftyLazerus Thesiant wrote:

It's Fine, give em a cookie and some milk if it will shut them up.
They have a 10, they are getting a 10 back. It's not CCPs fault they didn't understand ME.

(btw ... those overworked BPO's/BPC's were only valuable to them and people like them,
I know I damn sure never bought one ) Smile
I'll grant that an ME 300 bpo is over-researched to a silly extent, but what about an ME 10 vs. ME 50 capital module BPO? That represents a saving of a million isk / run for some modules, which is hardly wasted. That's why I previously argued for some sort of diminishing return research time credit, which I still would argue to be the fairest way to compensate folks.

Another (perhaps simpler to implement) solution would be to award BPCs for limited edition items such as Gecko drones, T2 items / ships (at a high ME/PE), faction items, etc. with the number / quality awarded varying according to how researched the bpos were.


CCP Greyscale...

Yes, I like this... An ME300 should NOT get 3x's more then an ME100. And I'd be fine with Gecko drones, other items, T2 stuff, faction whatever, but it should be something that is at least comparable to the cost and time spent to get them.

HAVE FUN - MAKE ISK - NO DRAMA No Api's   -   No Wars   -   No Awoxing   -   No Kidding! Hogs is OPEN for recruiting!  Join our in-game channel "Airhogs"

Angelina Duvolle
Homeworld Technologies
#919 - 2014-05-14 04:05:37 UTC
People train for stuff for years at considerable cost ingame and rl at times, for ships and or modules etc, that oftentimes get nerfed into the ground. They don't get "compensated" for it. (exceptions being maybe a skill that goes away and the sp are refunded)

I don't think ccp owes us a damned thing for over-researched bpo's.
Megumi Miura
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#920 - 2014-05-14 04:35:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Megumi Miura
I got to about page 26 and then ran out of time (and patience).
Some brief thoughts:

1. In general I welcome the research changes.

2. I am concerned about the length of time it will take to research a BPO from ME/TE 9 to ME/TE 10 for substantial items.

3. Scrap T2 BPOs but offfer compensation.

4. I don't think those with over-researched BPOs need compensation as they have already enjoyed the (tiny) cost reduction their (large) time investment has afforded them.

5. I can also see some issues (of fairness & ownership) with awarding BPO compensation:
A) Those possessing the BPO may not have researched it
B) Which alt gets compensation for a BPO bought using corp wallet and/ or sitting in a corp hangar?

6. If BPO compensation is given then compensate the right thing. Compensate the cost advantage (e.g. 0.00258%) they would lose, not the time (e.g. 2+ weeks) they thought it was worth.