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Now that CCP has readjusted the wheel and are facing north again...

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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#41 - 2011-12-03 11:27:18 UTC
Zagdul wrote:
Jowen Datloran wrote:
Hm, not dismissive of the OP's notion.

The CSM has been one big pile of disappoint this term.


How so?


None of CSM 6 have thrown spoons at each other.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#42 - 2011-12-03 11:44:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Democracy with the votes of 10% of the population is not real democracy, but a flavor of oligarchy. And the answer is not getting rid of voting, but to gather more voting.

CSM would make a lot more of sense if players were forced to vote after login so every last 350,000th account was asked and had to bloody cast a vote, if even a random one (random order of appearence of the options would fix any bias caused by random voting, and all in all random voting would be a white noise canceling itself).

Also could give the players an Australian voting system so they could both vote for or vote against candidates, and there you go...


We can't even dislike forum posts and you think CCP is going to allow grief voting in the CSM election? Would be fun to sink the hopes and dreams of some people, but it's unlikely to ever happen.

Forcing people to vote sound good and is what true democracy is all about. Because it totally won't still be 10% of people voting for their candidate, while the rest vote for the first candidate that happens to appear in their list, so they can get it over with and go back to playing the game. The best part ofcourse being that, since 100% of players voted, the CSM now truely has the undivided backing of the playerbase and not some false and artificilly inflated voter number, that actually has little to no correspondence with what the players really support and is just used as a fake show of legitimacy.

Definitely not a pointless annoyance, that only tries to mask the low levels of interest people have in the process and CSM in general. A giant improvement over the current system as we can all agree.



Well, Australia's preferential election system is a real world case and it works fine. Bear in mind there are no "negative" votes, rather a candidate won't go far if he consistently fails to be one of the first choices.

See Wikipedia for details, it explains it better than what my English would allow me to explain:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Transferable_Vote

Be noted, Australia also got compulsory vote.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2011-12-03 12:23:43 UTC
Gealbhan wrote:

The Goons can never be dislodged from the CSM with their mains, alts and fanboi's voting for them. The CSM is not for the players anymore it's just a popularity contest.

Um, what? The CSM is flawed because it's popularly elected?
Shivus Tao
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2011-12-03 12:35:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Shivus Tao
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Democracy with the votes of 10% of the population is not real democracy, but a flavor of oligarchy. And the answer is not getting rid of voting, but to gather more voting.

CSM would make a lot more of sense if players were forced to vote after login so every last 350,000th account was asked and had to bloody cast a vote, if even a random one (random order of appearence of the options would fix any bias caused by random voting, and all in all random voting would be a white noise canceling itself).

Also could give the players an Australian voting system so they could both vote for or vote against candidates, and there you go...


We can't even dislike forum posts and you think CCP is going to allow grief voting in the CSM election? Would be fun to sink the hopes and dreams of some people, but it's unlikely to ever happen.

Forcing people to vote sound good and is what true democracy is all about. Because it totally won't still be 10% of people voting for their candidate, while the rest vote for the first candidate that happens to appear in their list, so they can get it over with and go back to playing the game. The best part ofcourse being that, since 100% of players voted, the CSM now truely has the undivided backing of the playerbase and not some false and artificilly inflated voter number, that actually has little to no correspondence with what the players really support and is just used as a fake show of legitimacy.

Definitely not a pointless annoyance, that only tries to mask the low levels of interest people have in the process and CSM in general. A giant improvement over the current system as we can all agree.



Well, Australia's preferential election system is a real world case and it works fine. Bear in mind there are no "negative" votes, rather a candidate won't go far if he consistently fails to be one of the first choices.

See Wikipedia for details, it explains it better than what my English would allow me to explain:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Transferable_Vote

Be noted, Australia also got compulsory vote.


Yes, Australia also banned such games as fallout 3, and are on a self righteous morality trip about everything, even allowable breast size in porn regardless of age. I wouldn't trust anything that comes out of that spider infested hellscape.

edit: apparently pron is censored.

Do as your sig says and quit, you'll do everyone a favor.
Captain Mastiff
#45 - 2011-12-03 12:41:42 UTC
I do wonder how many of those complaining actually voted...
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#46 - 2011-12-03 13:01:31 UTC
Captain Mastiff wrote:
I do wonder how many of those complaining actually voted...


I voted with both my accounts.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
non judgement
Without Fear
Flying Burning Ships Alliance
#47 - 2011-12-03 13:08:23 UTC  |  Edited by: non judgement
Shivus Tao wrote:
Yes, Australia also banned such games as fallout 3, and are on a self righteous morality trip about everything, even allowable breast size in **** regardless of age. I wouldn't trust anything that comes out of that spider infested hellscape.

edit: apparently pron is censored.

Do as your sig says and quit, you'll do everyone a favor.

I think at the time fallout 3 (latest mortal kombat as well) was banned was because Australia didn't have an 18+ rating for computer games. so a few games were banned because they weren't suitable for 15 year olds. I think we will be getting a 18+ rating for computer games soon though.

The reason for the breast size is only to stop preteen photos. It isn't anything about righteous morality. It is pretty obvious what the law was meant to stop and I don't see why you should have a problem with it.

Please find a better reason why Australia is a spider infested hellscape. Nothing like throwing the baby out with the bathwater hey? I don't mind if you don't like Australia but at least have a good reason to. P
Zerakix
The White Mantle
#48 - 2011-12-03 13:25:28 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Democracy with the votes of 10% of the population is not real democracy, but a flavor of oligarchy. And the answer is not getting rid of voting, but to gather more voting.

CSM would make a lot more of sense if players were forced to vote after login so every last 350,000th account was asked and had to bloody cast a vote, if even a random one (random order of appearence of the options would fix any bias caused by random voting, and all in all random voting would be a white noise canceling itself).

Also could give the players an Australian voting system so they could both vote for or vote against candidates, and there you go...


If only 10% of the population cares enough to bother voting why make the rest vote if they don't care enough now with how easy it is to spend ~5mins casting a vote online? It's not like they have to drive to a polling station and since it seems to already be far to much trouble for them to vote forcing them to vote will only serve to annoy them more.

I voted for Trebor simply because I flew with him at one point I didn't research opinions or stances of the candidates I just voted the one I knew at one point in the past. Most people just won't bother to research the candidates and since unlike real life there no simple newspapers or TV news to read/watch to find out about the candidates. The non-voting 90% wouldn't know who to vote for and probably wouldn't care and would just pick one at random or who ever was at the top of the list. Is the list of candidates static or randomly ordered and generated? Because if you force them to vote who ever is on top or at least before the fold will win.
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2011-12-03 13:27:36 UTC
Nex apparatu5 wrote:
Oh look, the minority's complaining again because they don't like that the majority control the government.


what are you talking about ?

As far as i know, even in real world, whole election is just theater for stupid, game is rigged and there is nothing except world wide civil war to break the circle.

And welcome back to 12th century ??? what too early ???

Anyway as far as the game goes.

Got nothing against CSM, they actually proved to be quite capable for what they are suppose to do and more.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#50 - 2011-12-03 14:26:20 UTC
Zerakix wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Democracy with the votes of 10% of the population is not real democracy, but a flavor of oligarchy. And the answer is not getting rid of voting, but to gather more voting.

CSM would make a lot more of sense if players were forced to vote after login so every last 350,000th account was asked and had to bloody cast a vote, if even a random one (random order of appearence of the options would fix any bias caused by random voting, and all in all random voting would be a white noise canceling itself).

Also could give the players an Australian voting system so they could both vote for or vote against candidates, and there you go...


If only 10% of the population cares enough to bother voting why make the rest vote if they don't care enough now with how easy it is to spend ~5mins casting a vote online? It's not like they have to drive to a polling station and since it seems to already be far to much trouble for them to vote forcing them to vote will only serve to annoy them more.

I voted for Trebor simply because I flew with him at one point I didn't research opinions or stances of the candidates I just voted the one I knew at one point in the past. Most people just won't bother to research the candidates and since unlike real life there no simple newspapers or TV news to read/watch to find out about the candidates. The non-voting 90% wouldn't know who to vote for and probably wouldn't care and would just pick one at random or who ever was at the top of the list. Is the list of candidates static or randomly ordered and generated? Because if you force them to vote who ever is on top or at least before the fold will win.


Random generated list, then voter sorts the candidates in order of preference, at least 2/3 of the choices. If you see a name you like, make it 1, If you dislike, make it last.

And in my book, when 10% the population decides for the other 90%, something is going horribly wrong and it's the systems' fault.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
non judgement
Without Fear
Flying Burning Ships Alliance
#51 - 2011-12-03 14:27:02 UTC
Zerakix wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Democracy with the votes of 10% of the population is not real democracy, but a flavor of oligarchy. And the answer is not getting rid of voting, but to gather more voting.

CSM would make a lot more of sense if players were forced to vote after login so every last 350,000th account was asked and had to bloody cast a vote, if even a random one (random order of appearence of the options would fix any bias caused by random voting, and all in all random voting would be a white noise canceling itself).

Also could give the players an Australian voting system so they could both vote for or vote against candidates, and there you go...


If only 10% of the population cares enough to bother voting why make the rest vote if they don't care enough now with how easy it is to spend ~5mins casting a vote online? It's not like they have to drive to a polling station and since it seems to already be far to much trouble for them to vote forcing them to vote will only serve to annoy them more.

I voted for Trebor simply because I flew with him at one point I didn't research opinions or stances of the candidates I just voted the one I knew at one point in the past. Most people just won't bother to research the candidates and since unlike real life there no simple newspapers or TV news to read/watch to find out about the candidates. The non-voting 90% wouldn't know who to vote for and probably wouldn't care and would just pick one at random or who ever was at the top of the list. Is the list of candidates static or randomly ordered and generated? Because if you force them to vote who ever is on top or at least before the fold will win.

That's a good point. The list should be in a random order. I thought that the people who don't know who to vote for would just balance out each other. Just voting for the top person on the list seems really odd to me. I guess a few people would do that though. Is there some research on this type of thing? Or are you just making this stuff up? Because you're obviously for to the right not to vote. I'd suggest that huge fund raisers and paying heaps of money to get people to vote for you is such a great idea. Does the person who gets the most money from fund raisers in the States, win the election? It seems like a huge waste of money if you ask me.
Zerakix
The White Mantle
#52 - 2011-12-03 16:35:17 UTC
non judgement wrote:
Zerakix wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Democracy with the votes of 10% of the population is not real democracy, but a flavor of oligarchy. And the answer is not getting rid of voting, but to gather more voting.

CSM would make a lot more of sense if players were forced to vote after login so every last 350,000th account was asked and had to bloody cast a vote, if even a random one (random order of appearence of the options would fix any bias caused by random voting, and all in all random voting would be a white noise canceling itself).

Also could give the players an Australian voting system so they could both vote for or vote against candidates, and there you go...


If only 10% of the population cares enough to bother voting why make the rest vote if they don't care enough now with how easy it is to spend ~5mins casting a vote online? It's not like they have to drive to a polling station and since it seems to already be far to much trouble for them to vote forcing them to vote will only serve to annoy them more.

I voted for Trebor simply because I flew with him at one point I didn't research opinions or stances of the candidates I just voted the one I knew at one point in the past. Most people just won't bother to research the candidates and since unlike real life there no simple newspapers or TV news to read/watch to find out about the candidates. The non-voting 90% wouldn't know who to vote for and probably wouldn't care and would just pick one at random or who ever was at the top of the list. Is the list of candidates static or randomly ordered and generated? Because if you force them to vote who ever is on top or at least before the fold will win.

That's a good point. The list should be in a random order. I thought that the people who don't know who to vote for would just balance out each other. Just voting for the top person on the list seems really odd to me. I guess a few people would do that though. Is there some research on this type of thing? Or are you just making this stuff up? Because you're obviously for to the right not to vote. I'd suggest that huge fund raisers and paying heaps of money to get people to vote for you is such a great idea. Does the person who gets the most money from fund raisers in the States, win the election? It seems like a huge waste of money if you ask me.


Well this is a game and if they couldn't be bothered to vote willingly why would they care who they vote for if they're forced to vote?
Zerakix
The White Mantle
#53 - 2011-12-03 16:38:12 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:


Random generated list, then voter sorts the candidates in order of preference, at least 2/3 of the choices. If you see a name you like, make it 1, If you dislike, make it last.

And in my book, when 10% the population decides for the other 90%, something is going horribly wrong and it's the systems' fault.


It's a game and while internet spaceships are zeriouz business if they can't be bothered to vote willingly why do you seem to think they will care who they vote for when forced to? Really random and then they then have to sort the order? Thats to much work for them to bother if they already won't vote willingly
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#54 - 2011-12-03 17:19:51 UTC
Zerakix wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:


Random generated list, then voter sorts the candidates in order of preference, at least 2/3 of the choices. If you see a name you like, make it 1, If you dislike, make it last.

And in my book, when 10% the population decides for the other 90%, something is going horribly wrong and it's the systems' fault.


It's a game and while internet spaceships are zeriouz business if they can't be bothered to vote willingly why do you seem to think they will care who they vote for when forced to? Really random and then they then have to sort the order? Thats to much work for them to bother if they already won't vote willingly


Because either they vote or they can't proceed past the login screen, that's one good reason to spew some random numbers or, go figure, read the names. Maybe even check them. Maybe even check what they say.

Even that would be better than have a CSM that can be defined as "nullsec alliances puppet masters plus good ole Meissa Anunthiel".

From a demographics vs CSM p.o.v., It's funny how most people lives in hisec and yet there are zero hisec dwellers in the CSM, FAI.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Kaivar Lancer
Doomheim
#55 - 2011-12-03 17:28:18 UTC
Shivus Tao wrote:
spider infested hellscape.


It's true. One of out every second house in Australia is infested with white-tail spiders. One bite, and the bacteria in their fangs will begin to eat your flesh. Doctors will eventually amputate your limb. Look it up on youtube. 'white-tail spider'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcgL6tlYYbs
Zerakix
The White Mantle
#56 - 2011-12-03 17:32:25 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Zerakix wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:


Random generated list, then voter sorts the candidates in order of preference, at least 2/3 of the choices. If you see a name you like, make it 1, If you dislike, make it last.

And in my book, when 10% the population decides for the other 90%, something is going horribly wrong and it's the systems' fault.


It's a game and while internet spaceships are zeriouz business if they can't be bothered to vote willingly why do you seem to think they will care who they vote for when forced to? Really random and then they then have to sort the order? Thats to much work for them to bother if they already won't vote willingly


Because either they vote or they can't proceed past the login screen, that's one good reason to spew some random numbers or, go figure, read the names. Maybe even check them. Maybe even check what they say.

Even that would be better than have a CSM that can be defined as "nullsec alliances puppet masters plus good ole Meissa Anunthiel".

From a demographics vs CSM p.o.v., It's funny how most people lives in hisec and yet there are zero hisec dwellers in the CSM, FAI.


So your going to force people paying to play a game to vote for something they likely don't care about given they don't bother voting as it is? I'm a highs carebear and I really don't care about who is on the CSM I mean sure if you have all the members from one alliance nap fest it would be shady but just because they're nullsec players doesn't mean they want to negatively impact high-sec as its where the money is. Well outside of the Goons anyways but they're something awful not matter where they go trolling. One would assume CCP wouldn't allow the CSM to push a highsec braking change just for the pvp null sec players... err actually lets go with the forums would explode and we'd have threadnaughts if the CSM pushed something like that.
mkint
#57 - 2011-12-03 17:39:50 UTC
Zerakix wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Zerakix wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:


Random generated list, then voter sorts the candidates in order of preference, at least 2/3 of the choices. If you see a name you like, make it 1, If you dislike, make it last.

And in my book, when 10% the population decides for the other 90%, something is going horribly wrong and it's the systems' fault.


It's a game and while internet spaceships are zeriouz business if they can't be bothered to vote willingly why do you seem to think they will care who they vote for when forced to? Really random and then they then have to sort the order? Thats to much work for them to bother if they already won't vote willingly


Because either they vote or they can't proceed past the login screen, that's one good reason to spew some random numbers or, go figure, read the names. Maybe even check them. Maybe even check what they say.

Even that would be better than have a CSM that can be defined as "nullsec alliances puppet masters plus good ole Meissa Anunthiel".

From a demographics vs CSM p.o.v., It's funny how most people lives in hisec and yet there are zero hisec dwellers in the CSM, FAI.


So your going to force people paying to play a game to vote for something they likely don't care about given they don't bother voting as it is? I'm a highs carebear and I really don't care about who is on the CSM I mean sure if you have all the members from one alliance nap fest it would be shady but just because they're nullsec players doesn't mean they want to negatively impact high-sec as its where the money is. Well outside of the Goons anyways but they're something awful not matter where they go trolling. One would assume CCP wouldn't allow the CSM to push a highsec braking change just for the pvp null sec players... err actually lets go with the forums would explode and we'd have threadnaughts if the CSM pushed something like that.

What are you talking about? CSM doesn't have to push anything like that. Grayscale does it all anyway. Grayscale is all about the RMT alliance buffs, everyone else nerfs. Seriously, Grayscale is bad for EVE. It's gonna be him that ultimately kills EVE.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Rabid cat
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2011-12-03 18:06:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Rabid cat
The whiners are just trying to abuse 'their power' and shut down an important service. It's like almost every politician is dreaming of shutting down wikipedia and police forces would like to change laws so that basically everyone one was a criminal so they could put anyone in jail!

And there was a canditate who focused on highsec and supported carebears but guess what?! The highsec bears obviously didn't vote...
ight8
BLACK SQUADRON.
Get Off My Lawn
#59 - 2011-12-03 19:15:25 UTC
Now that Hybrids are buffed, I can vote with those now.
Komen
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2011-12-03 19:26:49 UTC
The Mittani wrote:
oh wait the poor OP is a joiner, he probably is unaware of CELES' sordid history of betrayal, hypocrisy and failure which set up the prologue of the Great War

death2allascns


FFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

Yeah, actually, I have no loves for the ascns. And I was one.

/me returns to a life of self-loathing neckbeardedness.