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compensation for standings not being required for pos anchoring

Author
Celly S
Neutin Local LLC
#21 - 2014-05-11 04:49:49 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
I'm looking forward to the chaos.


Without chaos there is no evolution...I have my reservations about the upcoming changes but look forward to them simply to give me much more stuff to learn.

Celly S wrote:
a perfect example is the PvPer who was whining on these forums because a mission runner dropped a depot and refit warp stabs and got away from him...


That makes me smile...a PvPer complaining about being outmaneuvered...


Me too, and the opportunity to learn more is always welcomed :P

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.

Rhadnan Yvormes
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2014-05-11 06:03:20 UTC
Kate Blaze wrote:
Keep crying. You had your meadow till now. That is your compensation.


+1 for asshattery.

A market position obtained through the investment of a great deal of time and effort is not a meadow.
It's an earned privilege.

Yeah, he has already managed to make some isk by leveraging the facilities afforded him by his hard work, but that doesn't make it acceptable to obliterate the value of that work. And what about those of us who have invested the time and effort to obtain this privilege but have just recently reached that point, and have yet to benefit from the work we put in? What about the corps that have invested the effort to be able to deploy a POS in hisec because they don't have the resources or combat capability to defend one in LS/NS?

Now they're going to have a flood of competition and aggro from much more powerful corps who previously wouldn't have bothered to mess with them, because they weren't willing to invest the effort required to earn the privilege of putting up a POS in hisec. Not only does a market advantage that took a great deal of effort to earn just disappear, but suddenly the risk to the investment in the POS and the assets of everyone involved in running it increases exponentially.

It's one thing for a ship one spent a lot of time training for to be made more or less powerful. It's another thing entirely for everything one spent years building to be put at tremendous risk, especially when the decisions regarding the risk:reward of those efforts were made on the basis of such a long-standing game mechanic. Changing how hard it is to earn this privilege would be one thing. Removing the requirement TO earn it is another thing entirely.

I have to concur that this is a monumentally ill-conceived plan.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#23 - 2014-05-11 07:32:08 UTC
Rhadnan Yvormes wrote:
Yeah, he has already managed to make some isk by leveraging the facilities afforded him by his hard work, but that doesn't make it acceptable to obliterate the value of that work. And what about those of us who have invested the time and effort to obtain this privilege but have just recently reached that point, and have yet to benefit from the work we put in?


We all know (or should know) that everything in the game is subject to change at any time. Your number happens to be up this time - adapt and overcome.

Rhadnan Yvormes wrote:
What about the corps that have invested the effort to be able to deploy a POS in hisec because they don't have the resources or combat capability to defend one in LS/NS?


As long as they have the capabiity to defend one in highsec they should be fine.

Rhadnan Yvormes wrote:
Now they're going to have a flood of competition and aggro from much more powerful corps who previously wouldn't have bothered to mess with them


Assumes facts not in evidence.

Rhadnan Yvormes wrote:
suddenly the risk to the investment in the POS and the assets of everyone involved in running it increases exponentially.


As good as it would be for the game if this change caused a massive increase in wardecs to kill POSes (with all the ship explosions that would hopefully accompany it), my guess is that there'll actually be little to no change.

Rhadnan Yvormes wrote:
It's another thing entirely for everything one spent years building to be put at tremendous risk, especially when the decisions regarding the risk:reward of those efforts were made on the basis of such a long-standing game mechanic.


Risk versus reward in highsec has been considerably out of whack for many, many years. If you took advantage of that then more power to you, but you should have also factored into your decisions that eventually things would start getting fixed.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff

Arronicus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#24 - 2014-05-11 07:43:03 UTC
Hold on, almost, so close.... nope. Don't have even 1 tear to shed. Things change. Business opportunities arise, business opportunities dry up. There's no need for compensation here, because you're not being denied anything that you paid for. You've made a lot of money off the efforts you made, not just limited to the money you got paid for doing the missions. In addition to the continuous benefits you have, like better refine rates, clone accessibility, etc.
Rhadnan Yvormes
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2014-05-11 22:30:17 UTC
admiral root wrote:
We all know (or should know) that everything in the game is subject to change at any time. Your number happens to be up this time - adapt and overcome.


Yes, things are of course subject to change, and with perhaps most things that's not particularly distressing. Removing all requirement of investment of time and effort, however, strays into different territory. Changing the risk:reward considerations of a hisec pos would be reasonable, but this is not merely changing the risk:reward calculation, it is directly invalidating an earned advantage. It's rather legitimate to be upset about that.

admiral root wrote:
As long as they have the capabiity to defend one in highsec they should be fine.


Not necessarily, as the removal of the time and effort requirement substantially alters the pool of potential enemies against whom need to defend one may arise. There are, for example, likely to be many corps with far more firepower than such a small corp can defend against. I'll wager, though, that many such corps would not be willing to invest the time and effort currently required to anchor a POS in hisec, and thus the small corp that has a POS and sells research slots isn't a particularly attractive target. Removing the standing requirement very dramatically alters the criteria for what makes an appealing target, and by extension, the caliber and scale of opposition with which one is apt to be confronted.

admiral root wrote:
Assumes facts not in evidence.


That much I will concede. Though it not yet being in evidence in no way invalidates the argument, though imperfectly worded, against the change. The risk, whether or not it materializes, is expanded from those who have a mind to take the location you have staked out AND have invested the effort to obtain the standings required in order to benefit from having it, to pretty much anybody who wants to be where you are.

admiral root wrote:
As good as it would be for the game if this change caused a massive increase in wardecs to kill POSes (with all the ship explosions that would hopefully accompany it), my guess is that there'll actually be little to no change.

Risk versus reward in highsec has been considerably out of whack for many, many years. If you took advantage of that then more power to you, but you should have also factored into your decisions that eventually things would start getting fixed.


You could be right. But personally I don't necessarily agree that much more destruction in hisec would be good for the game. And risk vs reward in hisec being out of whack is rather a matter of perspective. From mine, the rewards available in hisec are pretty crappy, and that's the tradeoff I make for being more secure. What this change does is introduce, potentially, much greater competition for the already crappy rewards available in hisec, while simultaneously potentially making one much less secure in reaping them.

I thank and salute you though, for the tactful presentation of your rebuttals.
Civilized discourse seems rather lacking on the boards and in this game so much of the time.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#26 - 2014-05-11 22:36:03 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Seriously, nobody has linked CCP Guard's HTFU videos yet? I'm appalled.

As an industrialist, I have no idea what is going to happen come June 3rd. I'm pretty sure it will be chaos for several months. I don't expect to earning anything, and I might even be taking-down my POSes. There might not even be a point for me to remain in industry.

Despite all that, I've had a good run, and I can't wait to see what happens. I'm looking forward to the chaos.



FTFU, Tau.

Reading through posts, will reply with something that makes sense later.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2014-05-11 23:01:22 UTC
Deal with it.

CCP didn't give people running the old VG's compensation when they were nerfed from ~300m/hr to ~120m/h.. They didn't give people back time trained when they changed the requirements for an Orca, or a Carrier after the fact.

Everything you did up until this point, offered you something up until this point. Now you just need to find a way to adapt, or die.
Darin Vanar
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2014-05-11 23:16:28 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
CRAZYCAJUN wrote:
Salpad wrote:
He does have a point.

CCP could give a 1% job cost discount per 0.5 faction standing above 5.0, to reward high-standing players. It seem as if faction standing won't matter at all any more, to industry, and that is detrimental to those players who worked hard for theirs.



definitely like where this is going, assuming corporation standing would be applied if personal standing isn't up to par I'd be happy with something like that

>Complains about the game catering to people who dont want to work now
>Has made a living selling his standings to corps so they can place their POSs without putting in work

Your entire arguement is invalid.


People who don't want to work, should pay more for the convenience of said work being brought to them. I don't see how this makes his argument invalid.
Darin Vanar
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2014-05-11 23:23:56 UTC
Rhadnan Yvormes wrote:
Kate Blaze wrote:
Keep crying. You had your meadow till now. That is your compensation.


+1 for asshattery.

A market position obtained through the investment of a great deal of time and effort is not a meadow.
It's an earned privilege.

Yeah, he has already managed to make some isk by leveraging the facilities afforded him by his hard work, but that doesn't make it acceptable to obliterate the value of that work. And what about those of us who have invested the time and effort to obtain this privilege but have just recently reached that point, and have yet to benefit from the work we put in? What about the corps that have invested the effort to be able to deploy a POS in hisec because they don't have the resources or combat capability to defend one in LS/NS?

Now they're going to have a flood of competition and aggro from much more powerful corps who previously wouldn't have bothered to mess with them, because they weren't willing to invest the effort required to earn the privilege of putting up a POS in hisec. Not only does a market advantage that took a great deal of effort to earn just disappear, but suddenly the risk to the investment in the POS and the assets of everyone involved in running it increases exponentially.

It's one thing for a ship one spent a lot of time training for to be made more or less powerful. It's another thing entirely for everything one spent years building to be put at tremendous risk, especially when the decisions regarding the risk:reward of those efforts were made on the basis of such a long-standing game mechanic. Changing how hard it is to earn this privilege would be one thing. Removing the requirement TO earn it is another thing entirely.

I have to concur that this is a monumentally ill-conceived plan.


They are only removing the standings anyway, because they expect POS usage to go down, and they don't want to completely destroy the ice market. Removal of standings, plus the increased consumption of Isotope fuel, is just their insurance against the removal of slots.
Adunh Slavy
#30 - 2014-05-11 23:38:40 UTC
The Compensation is less restrictions on what we can do.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#31 - 2014-05-12 00:49:11 UTC
CCP can change things as needed not giving "compensation" for it. When they swtiched data cores to be FW favored core farmers in empire got nothing for example. For some like me, work was put into this. Getting alts ground up to level 4 agents was a bit of time. KNow what I said when this happened....oh well, lost a decent easy isk source. Not the first CCP took away, not the last either.



Standings still have use. Some may not like the remaining uses but thats on them really.
CRAZYCAJUN
Mandingo's Minions
#32 - 2014-05-12 03:35:58 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:
CCP can change things as needed not giving "compensation" for it. When they swtiched data cores to be FW favored core farmers in empire got nothing for example. For some like me, work was put into this. Getting alts ground up to level 4 agents was a bit of time. KNow what I said when this happened....oh well, lost a decent easy isk source. Not the first CCP took away, not the last either.



Standings still have use. Some may not like the remaining uses but thats on them really.



I lost a huge amount of income through that patch as well, I had taken a break from eve at the time so I wasn't around to know it was happening. Doesn't make it right and definitely should have been looked at to make it right for those who worked their asses off for it.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#33 - 2014-05-12 04:34:43 UTC
CRAZYCAJUN wrote:
Doesn't make it right and definitely should have been looked at to make it right for those who worked their asses off for it.

They are making it right, that's why you're suffering. It's so others get a fair chance and you don't deserve any compensation for that. You ran missions and you were rewarded for running those missions. No compensation needed.
Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
#34 - 2014-05-12 08:11:26 UTC
CRAZYCAJUN wrote:

My question is how are you guys planning on compensating people for all the work they did to gain serious faction standing being completely wasted?


By your own post you've been making 1Bil a month based on those standings. Why should CCP give you any more?



Things change, what once was a viable business, becomes worthless due to changes in technology, fashion, peoples habits...

The sign of a good businessman is that he adapts to meet these changes.

Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

Mag's
Azn Empire
#35 - 2014-05-12 08:18:07 UTC
CRAZYCAJUN wrote:
I've literally spent years getting my standing where it is now, and have been using them to make a pretty good living in eve over the past few months.

After the summer patch my business will literally be wiped out due to standings not being required for pos anchoring.

My question is how are you guys planning on compensating people for all the work they did to gain serious faction standing being completely wasted?

I'm losing a 1bil per month income after the patch.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way. This game used to be about working hard for what you have and its becoming a carebear community.
And you had the advantage that those of us who didn't do that for the past few months.

I on the other hand, purchased a corp with high standing already years ago. Was able to gain lots of jump clones with that char and was able to put up a POS.

In both cases we had use of the system and benefited from it. So no, you shouldn't get ANY compensation.

Also, great change is great. But you will still need those high standings for clones, so stop moaning.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Samillian
Angry Mustellid
Lost Obsession
#36 - 2014-05-12 08:19:47 UTC
OP, your not the first nor are you going to be the last to have a revenue stream closed by changes to this game.

Its happened to me more than once and while I can understand its frustrating it does teach you to diversify and not keep all your eggs in one basket.

Roll with the punch and move on.

NBSI shall be the whole of the Law

Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2014-05-12 16:32:59 UTC
Samillian wrote:
OP, your not the first nor are you going to be the last to have a revenue stream closed by changes to this game.

Its happened to me more than once and while I can understand its frustrating it does teach you to diversify and not keep all your eggs in one basket.

Roll with the punch and move on.

Or be like a normal person and go on into industry, all it needs is roughly 100bil startup and you can beon your way to mogulhood in as little as 15-16 months, provided you find a nice quiet spot in need of a market.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#38 - 2014-05-12 16:42:20 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Also, great change is great. But you will still need those high standings for clones, so stop moaning.


Wait, they're moving clones to faction standing instead of station-owning corp standing?

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Samillian
Angry Mustellid
Lost Obsession
#39 - 2014-05-12 16:52:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Samillian
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Samillian wrote:
OP, your not the first nor are you going to be the last to have a revenue stream closed by changes to this game.

Its happened to me more than once and while I can understand its frustrating it does teach you to diversify and not keep all your eggs in one basket.

Roll with the punch and move on.

Or be like a normal person and go on into industry, all it needs is roughly 100bil startup and you can beon your way to mogulhood in as little as 15-16 months, provided you find a nice quiet spot in need of a market.


You obviously went into building supercaps or bought yourself a couple of T2 BPOs then. Startup is considerably cheaper for T2 manufacturing and well within the OP's price range if as he stated he was making a billion a month. Although I will admit that the margins will be somewhat reduced after the patch but still look worthwhile on a wide range of products.

If your referring to market trading then initial investment need not be on that level and the returns can be good to excellent all depending on your willingness to find an appropriate market to stock.

NBSI shall be the whole of the Law

Batelle
Filthy Peasants
#40 - 2014-05-12 17:16:34 UTC
CRAZYCAJUN wrote:

My question is how are you guys planning on compensating people for all the work they did to gain serious faction standing being completely wasted?


Maybe standings will count for something else in the future. Maybe not. But you're certainly not owed anything. Requiring corp standings for pos anchoring was broken in many ways. Decoupling them is an acceptable solution.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

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