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[Kronos] Mining Barges and Exhumers

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Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#601 - 2014-05-07 10:10:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Kitty Bear
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
How about reducing all barge tanks abck down to sensible levels again, like you know when eve was good and not this brainless dross? Where going afk, botting or ISboxing was frowned upon and punished hard. You really are just milking this game dry now.


I'm sorry for your loss.

You want a skiff dead, take a Battlecruiser
Risk something worthwhile (of equivalent ISK value) for your pvp rewards.

the old system your bemoaning the loss of, was a riskless activity.
And no, concord blowing up a 'gank catalyst' does not count as risk.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#602 - 2014-05-07 10:30:22 UTC
Xearal wrote:
Ok, this post isn't about the exhumers or mining barges, but it's related.

Instead it's a little thing about the new T2 venture, the prospector.

While the ship is nicely thought out, you missed out on a small detail regarding the cloak.

Gas harvesters only have a range of 1500 meters, however in order to be able to cloak you need to be
at least 2000 meters away from anything. As such, a gas mining prospector will not be able to cloak up
as easily as compared to an ore mining one which can remain far enough away from rocks to be able
to cloak up as soon as somebody comes in.

So I propose to either increase the range of gas harvesters to 4-5km or give the prospector a role
bonus to it's gas harvesting range so it will be able to remain outside of the 2000 meter zone around
a gas cloud.


I'm afraid the law of unintended consequences would come into play and work against you.

At the moment, a bomber/scout can't get close to a venture in a gas site without becoming decloaked - the venture sits in the gas and the bomber is de-cloaked as soon as it gets within 2km of the gas cloud edge.

If you park your T2 venture 6km from the edge of the gas cloud, the bomber could just sidle up to you and decloak 2km from you. At this point you'd be unable to cloak because the attacker is within your cloak disruption range.

In any case, when I destroy ventures for fun in gas sites, I use a dual-scram interceptor with a scout to guide him in. Honestly, your only means of safety is to have scouts on system entrances.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Aureus Ahishatsu
Deadspace Knights
#603 - 2014-05-07 13:29:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Aureus Ahishatsu
Paikis wrote:
Aureus Ahishatsu wrote:
Currently as it stands a pilot with exhumers 5 fills the hulk bay over 75% in a single cycle. At that rate you would need to empty the ore bay every single cycle. Couple an orca and/or a rorqual ad this becomes an extreme micromanage ship (one of the reasons i don't mine).


That's kind of the point. If you want to AFK mine, use a Mackinaw.

I ran my mining fleet for a couple hours a day over the weekend. 4 Covetors, 3 Hulks, an Orca to boost and a Miasmos to haul the rocks (in LOW SEC). I had absolutely no problem emptying the ore holds every cycle, and I did it with 2 screens and good old alt+tab. No ISBoxer, and I only had to warp off once when someone jumped into local. Turns out it was a Black Frog shipment on the way through and I didn't actually have to leave.

Now if I can do that without ISBoxer, why can't you?


Extending the ore bay to give two cycle times is by no means AFK. I remember when i mined a lot with bonuses a hulk would need to be emptied almost every 120 seconds. that's not a whole lot of time and all it takes its to get caught up reading an article and then 2/3 your lasers shut off cause they're overloading. This is going to get amplified after the patch as now all bonuses will be applied to cycle time rather than amount. Reminds me of the ridiculously annoying days of the mining frigs that would fill their bay every 45 seconds or something ridiculous like that.. nobody wants that level of micro management. i would hardly consider extending it to a 4 min bay fill time as AFK. Compare that to a mack that takes over 20 min to fill the bay.
Aureus Ahishatsu
Deadspace Knights
#604 - 2014-05-07 17:10:10 UTC
Phoenix22 wrote:
Aureus Ahishatsu wrote:
Phoenix22 wrote:
Hulk need more cargo space with 2x t2 rig 8.500 m3 it to low for the hulk it does not match when mackinaw has 28.000 m3 with lvl 5 skills 35.000 m3 when hulk has 8.500 m3 + maybe some Role Bonus as well.


If the hulk had the same capacity as the mackinaw there would be NO REASON to ever use the mackinaw. However I agree there should be some boost to the hulk ore bay. Currently as it stands a pilot with exhumers 5 fills the hulk bay over 75% in a single cycle. At that rate you would need to empty the ore bay every single cycle. Couple an orca and/or a rorqual ad this becomes an extreme micromanage ship (one of the reasons i don't mine). This should be increased to the point I feel that you should be able to get at least 2 cycles before filling it even at max skill.

wheel i didn't mine to say same cargo cap but a little more will be grate maybe 15.000 m3 will do + I think that Ice harvest duration is useless because there is no more ice belts is it is Crap on that ship and no one mine ice with hulk but with mackinaw.
mackinaw has that bonus on that ship but on hulk useless.
hulk shot have ore ming harvest bonus not ice


So this is rather broken but i think you're a little confused about some things. first off the mack is no longer the only ice bonusing ship. that changed with the last patch to exhumers. Also I don't know what you mean there is no more ice belts? There are a lot you just need to know where they are. 15000m3 is what i was thinking as well for the hulk or maybe 16000 either way enough that you can get at least 2 cycles before you fill the hold up. but still no where close to the monster 35,000m3 of the mackinaw.

The only thing i have to say about the hulk for ice harvesting is that it gets screwed when mining ice sometimes due to it having the longest laser cycle time and as anyone knows who has mined ice when you get down to the last little bit of those icebergs it's all about cycle time. There could be another 10+ units left on an ice rock but since the lasers on a hulk take so long people with skiffs and macks will suck all 10 of those right out from under you since you don't get anything untill the cycle completes. While i understand this makes ice mining different from regular it is rather counter intuitive as i have seen people with orca's bring skiffs along with them so that when rocks get low they switch all their miners out to get the most out of the last little bits. Idk if this is what CCP wanted but it seems rather counter intuitive. I don't know what the solution to this is other than making ice mine like ore by cubic meters.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#605 - 2014-05-08 15:26:06 UTC
When are CCP going to wake up to the fact that mining is the most boring profession in eve and little tweaks like this won't change that?

During this years fanfest, CCP announced a mining ship that can fit a covert ops cloak and jump through black ops bridge. Now what they could have done was give this ability to all (or just the hulk) the T2 mining ships, which would instantly make the mining profession a lot more interesting.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Erutpar Ambient
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#606 - 2014-05-09 05:35:20 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
When are CCP going to wake up to the fact that mining is the most boring profession in eve and little tweaks like this won't change that?

During this years fanfest, CCP announced a mining ship that can fit a covert ops cloak and jump through black ops bridge. Now what they could have done was give this ability to all (or just the hulk) the T2 mining ships, which would instantly make the mining profession a lot more interesting.


What they need to do is the thing i talked about, giving a mining fleet some teeth.

Just buffing the Skiff's defensive capabilities doesn't really help anything else. There needs to be a dynamic system between each barge, exhumer, command ship (maybe ventures too?) and each other that increases their defensive capabilities exponentially in relation to each other.

This would solve the problem with not having dedicated PVP players, and in fact would bolster any PVP ships above their solo abilities in concert with a mining fleet. However solo miners should not be given the same benefits. All of these should come from being in the fleet.

My examples where this:
Skiff: Drone damage bonus (already happening). (The teeth)
Mackinaw: Repair drone bonus. (Fleet support)
Hulk: Increased EHP, drone bay removed. (survivability required for fleet activities, solo ability reduced dramatically)
Rorqual: In Siege Mode: Extra long range reps, increased EHP for on grid barges, local cyno inhibitor (maybe?), same self bonuses as Siege mode Dread and Triage Carrier. (immune to ewar/support, massively increased self rep) (basically a triage carrier for mining fleets.)

So the role of these ships in concert with each other increases greatly and the spread of ships in a fleet would also see much greater diversity. However for solo activity the ships would be for the greatest part unchanged. Skiff will be tough nut with teeth, and mackinaw will be large ore bay with minimal drone support. The Hulk will have more survivability but will have no defenses alone and would be most beneficial in a mining fleet. Not sure what to do with an orca or venture.

There will be times when things are boring just like all other activities in EVE. But there will be the occasional excitement to be had for miners with this system instead of just being fish in a barrel.

CCP we neeeeeeeeeeed this!!!!
Dave Stark
#607 - 2014-05-09 06:16:36 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Now what they could have done was give this ability to all (or just the hulk) the T2 mining ships, which would instantly make the mining profession a lot more interesting.

no it wouldn't.
you're still going to target an asteroid, hit f1, and wait until it pops or your cargo is full. gimmicks like cov-ops cloaks and bridges don't make mining more fun.
not to mention just because ~you~ don't find it fun, doesn't mean it's not actually fun or in need of a change.
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
#608 - 2014-05-09 13:14:12 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
IIRC the Hulk can now hold 2 full cycles in it's hold now, effectively doubling it's "convenience" score.
No matter how large or small Hulk cargohold becomes, the isk (read very few cheap ships) required to defeat a Hulk's tank is entirely too low. Removing grav sites has not helped the situation either.

The only thing a small cargohold does is reduce yield for solo Hulk pilots, since fleet use assumes a hauler/orca/indy moving the ore. Give me a reason to fly my hulk solo again.
Atum
Eclipse Industrials
Quantum Forge
#609 - 2014-05-09 15:45:03 UTC
DetKhord Saisio wrote:
]No matter how large or small Hulk cargohold becomes, the isk (read very few cheap ships) required to defeat a Hulk's tank is entirely too low. Removing grav sites has not helped the situation either.

Agreed, and so true it's not even funny... the 'ceptor changes only make things worse... blasted things can be on top of and tackling you before your gate's bubble camp can warn you they've entered the system. Warp entry/speed/exit changes are one thing, but giving them bubble immunity obliterates one of the things that made T3 cruisers special.
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
#610 - 2014-05-09 15:47:49 UTC
Erutpar Ambient wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
When are CCP going to wake up to the fact that mining is the most boring profession in eve and little tweaks like this won't change that?

During this years fanfest, CCP announced a mining ship that can fit a covert ops cloak and jump through black ops bridge. Now what they could have done was give this ability to all (or just the hulk) the T2 mining ships, which would instantly make the mining profession a lot more interesting.


What they need to do is the thing i talked about, giving a mining fleet some teeth.

Just buffing the Skiff's defensive capabilities doesn't really help anything else. There needs to be a dynamic system between each barge, exhumer, command ship (maybe ventures too?) and each other that increases their defensive capabilities exponentially in relation to each other.

This would solve the problem with not having dedicated PVP players, and in fact would bolster any PVP ships above their solo abilities in concert with a mining fleet. However solo miners should not be given the same benefits. All of these should come from being in the fleet.

My examples where this:
Skiff: Drone damage bonus (already happening). (The teeth)
Mackinaw: Repair drone bonus. (Fleet support)
Hulk: Increased EHP, drone bay removed. (survivability required for fleet activities, solo ability reduced dramatically)
Rorqual: In Siege Mode: Extra long range reps, increased EHP for on grid barges, local cyno inhibitor (maybe?), same self bonuses as Siege mode Dread and Triage Carrier. (immune to ewar/support, massively increased self rep) (basically a triage carrier for mining fleets.)

So the role of these ships in concert with each other increases greatly and the spread of ships in a fleet would also see much greater diversity. However for solo activity the ships would be for the greatest part unchanged. Skiff will be tough nut with teeth, and mackinaw will be large ore bay with minimal drone support. The Hulk will have more survivability but will have no defenses alone and would be most beneficial in a mining fleet. Not sure what to do with an orca or venture.

There will be times when things are boring just like all other activities in EVE. But there will be the occasional excitement to be had for miners with this system instead of just being fish in a barrel.

CCP we neeeeeeeeeeed this!!!!


While you are at it:
Faction mining implant that also adds shield harmonizing bonus (like the other faction mind link implants)
Shield gang link bonus to the newly announced versions of mining command ships
Strot Harn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#611 - 2014-05-10 05:09:48 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
During this years fanfest, CCP announced a mining ship that can fit a covert ops cloak and jump through black ops bridge. Now what they could have done was give this ability to all (or just the hulk) the T2 mining ships, which would instantly make the mining profession a lot more interesting.


[Coffee spew!]

I found this thread in order to suggest this very thing. Namely, a mining vessel that can ride a cov-ops cyno. One that can fit a cov-ops cloak is more than I could have hoped for.

In order of preference:
1) mining vessel that can ride a cov-ops cyno
2) mining vessel with a utility high for a cloak
3) mining vessel that can fit a cov-ops cloak

That CCP is already planning to give us this, is a testament to the fact that the changes they are making are in the right direction.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#612 - 2014-05-10 12:27:18 UTC
Strot Harn wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
During this years fanfest, CCP announced a mining ship that can fit a covert ops cloak and jump through black ops bridge. Now what they could have done was give this ability to all (or just the hulk) the T2 mining ships, which would instantly make the mining profession a lot more interesting.


[Coffee spew!]

I found this thread in order to suggest this very thing. Namely, a mining vessel that can ride a cov-ops cyno. One that can fit a cov-ops cloak is more than I could have hoped for.

In order of preference:
1) mining vessel that can ride a cov-ops cyno
2) mining vessel with a utility high for a cloak
3) mining vessel that can fit a cov-ops cloak

That CCP is already planning to give us this, is a testament to the fact that the changes they are making are in the right direction.



Welcome to the Prospect. A T2 version of the venture, with a 10k cargo hold.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#613 - 2014-05-10 13:52:08 UTC
Between the new Skiff & Procurer's fighting ability, and the Prospect with it's promise of ninja mining potential, I feel very positive about mining after this expansion.

I will specifically enjoy seeing player adaption and emergent play, where that cloaked dweller is not so much trying to hot drop PvE players.... but scare them away from the ore so he can mine it himself.

They will expect he is active, because he keeps popping in and out of the system to unload his ore bay....
And every 5th run he will show up in a cyno equipped covert boat to do the feared hot drop.

I truly feel joy.... we will play at long last in an area too long disregarded for stalemates.

Twisted

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#614 - 2014-05-10 15:22:43 UTC
DetKhord Saisio wrote:
Give me a reason to fly my hulk solo again.


CCP have said that the Hulk is designed to be used in a fleet. You're not supposed to fly the Hulk solo. If you're solo, use a Mackinaw.
Vladd Talltos
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#615 - 2014-05-11 17:34:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Vladd Talltos
While I understand your need to balance the ships and delineate their roles in mining, the 8500 m3 ore hold is useless on the hulk. That is the main reason miners have moved so significantly to the mackinaw. Currently, there is a small loss to mining yield wit the ease of transporting ore to the POS or station with the skiff and mack. Using the hulk, you are still relegated to jet can mining or wasting a lot of time.

You would be better off making more of difference in the skill requirements for flying each of these ships. Give them all ore bays that are really useful...35K.

Make the Procurer / Skiff the only ships capable of fitting the deep core strip miners and restrict them to this role. These will be the only barges / exhumers used to mine Mercoxit. You could also change Arkonor and Bistot so they can only be mined with deep core mining lasers. Make a T1 variant of the Modulated Deep Core Strip Miner that players can use until they can use the T2 variant.

Make the Retriever / Mackinaw the only ships capable of fitting ice harvesters and restricted to harvesting ice.

Give the Covetor / Hulk better range, yield and cycle time for regular ores. Make them incapable of fitting Deep Core Strip Miners and Ice Harvesters.

Miners who want to mine everything will need to train for all of these and maintain them all. Let the ships be used for their intended purpose rather than be used interchangeably.

One other thing...give them all teeth. The PVPers who come to blow them up have a variety of ships and fits to use in this endeavor. Beef all the mining ships up so it isn't so easy for the PVPer. The EHP should have a 35K / 50K base for the mining barges / exhumers respectfully. Since their only offense is drones, they should be able to carry more drones...currently, they are relegated to 5 medium drones max. A solo miner will be lucky if they can even survive a triple BS NPC spawn. If they lose one drone, they can't even break the tank on the NPC BS.

Give us a reason to keep flying these ships.

Just my thoughts....but I see the problem as having different ships that are suppose to have different roles being used for roles they really weren't designed for.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#616 - 2014-05-11 17:55:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Vladd Talltos wrote:


Just my thoughts....but I see the problem as having different ships that are suppose to have different roles being used for roles they really weren't designed for.


so u want them all to do everything at once, except the mack which only mines ice? yeah because this was not changed for a good reason at all LolLolLol

they are designed differently now, and they fill their roles pretty well. even the hulk, we use them in fleets. they are great.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
#617 - 2014-05-11 19:08:59 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Vladd Talltos wrote:


Just my thoughts....but I see the problem as having different ships that are suppose to have different roles being used for roles they really weren't designed for.


so u want them all to do everything at once, except the mack which only mines ice? yeah because this was not changed for a good reason at all LolLolLol

they are designed differently now, and they fill their roles pretty well. even the hulk, we use them in fleets. they are great.
Based on your reply, you can not read or are trolling. Try again.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#618 - 2014-05-11 21:17:12 UTC
hmm..

Lets make all barges pvp viable

Bastion for everything.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#619 - 2014-05-11 22:33:41 UTC
DetKhord Saisio wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Vladd Talltos wrote:


Just my thoughts....but I see the problem as having different ships that are suppose to have different roles being used for roles they really weren't designed for.


so u want them all to do everything at once, except the mack which only mines ice? yeah because this was not changed for a good reason at all LolLolLol

they are designed differently now, and they fill their roles pretty well. even the hulk, we use them in fleets. they are great.
Based on your reply, you can not read or are trolling. Try again.

I agree with Daichi Yamato's perspective.

I am not interested in seeing all of these equally valued for solo / small group play.

I feel that we have enough of a challenge getting a ship to meet our overall playstyle, (solo / group / under threat),
rather than a secondary interest such as ice mining or mercoxit the way it used to be.

It sounds like Vladd wants the barges to resume their original roles, while all becoming good at hauling and fighting.
I believe that goes against the best interests of this being a game, with having costs and trade offs to balance each playstyle.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Aureus Ahishatsu
Deadspace Knights
#620 - 2014-05-12 14:09:25 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
DetKhord Saisio wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Vladd Talltos wrote:


Just my thoughts....but I see the problem as having different ships that are suppose to have different roles being used for roles they really weren't designed for.


so u want them all to do everything at once, except the mack which only mines ice? yeah because this was not changed for a good reason at all LolLolLol

they are designed differently now, and they fill their roles pretty well. even the hulk, we use them in fleets. they are great.
Based on your reply, you can not read or are trolling. Try again.

I agree with Daichi Yamato's perspective.

I am not interested in seeing all of these equally valued for solo / small group play.

I feel that we have enough of a challenge getting a ship to meet our overall playstyle, (solo / group / under threat),
rather than a secondary interest such as ice mining or mercoxit the way it used to be.

It sounds like Vladd wants the barges to resume their original roles, while all becoming good at hauling and fighting.
I believe that goes against the best interests of this being a game, with having costs and trade offs to balance each playstyle.


Not to mention the fact that this would significantly affect ship prices as there are few people that ice mine compared to regular mining. So the regular mining ships would be purchase all over while the ice mining one sits and has a much lower turn over. EVEN LESS people ever that get the opportunity to mine mercox so that ship would barely get sold at all which was the entire reason CCP moved away from that model in the first place.