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WH Specific Race or Ship Line
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ARMED1
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2014-05-10 16:19:10 UTC  |  Edited by: ARMED1
Hello fellow WH pilots.

So, I have been thinking about life in WHs. As can be seen by the upcoming release of the new COVOPs capable mining frigate - CCP is gradually recognizing and reacting to the fact that WH pilots are in need of certain capabilities in the ships they fly. Up until now, we have been utilizing existing ship hulls and fitting them specifically for WH use. This is great but there is still room for improvement and following the current push for more deep space exploration and colonization I think there are some great possibilities.

If you follow EVE backstory we have the different races and shipbuilders. However, in RL the free markets react to and fill the needs of the marketplace. In this futuristic universe of EVE, where the science of transporting pilot consciousness into clones has been mastered, wouldnt it make sense that somewhere in a dark corner of this vast galaxy a shipbuilder would have recognized and filled the need for WH specific ship hulls?

So, I pose this question for forum discussion...

Why dont we have a WH specific ship line? If we did what would that line of ships look like? What skills would they use? Theoretically what kinds of ships would be included and what would their capabilities be? How would this line of ships be balanced in game? Maybe these ship hulls would work only in WH space and thus not upset the current balance of ships in the rest of EVE. Possibly the ships are somehow symbiotic to the effects of WHs and, outside of WH space, their special attributes would not function? This would keep the game and existing ships balanced.

Discuss...
ExookiZ
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#2 - 2014-05-10 16:48:47 UTC
i dont think the prospect is aimed at us TBH, while Im not opposed to your idea im always game for new ships but I think your optimistic about thinking CCP was thinking of us.

Event Organizer of EVE North East
calaretu
Honestly We didnt know
#3 - 2014-05-10 16:51:08 UTC
Yeah the new mining frigs seem specialized for ninja mining in null

~Bringer of happiness

http://collapsedbehind.blogspot.no/
Ahost Gceo
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2014-05-10 16:51:46 UTC
The only big difference that w-space has versus k-space are wormholes themselves, entrances that are never permanent and have mass limitations.

That said, the only thing I could see being tailored specifically for w-space as a ship role bonus is mass reduction.
We don't need "w-space specific ships".

What really needs to happen is a pass on T3s. There need to be more subsystems to give them more combinations and variety, and there also need to be some fixes on existing subsystems as well. For example, the drone subsystem for Proteus still makes it inferior to an Ishtar because it can't field 5 heavies/sentries. That's pretty stupid when technically a T2 should not be better than a T3. Making T3s superior to T2s with comparable roles will increase their demand, thus shifting the market to make them more expensive.

I could delve into how this would affect wormholers overall, but that is not the point of this thread.

TL:DR, we don't need w-space specific ships. Just improved and expanded T3 options.

CCP ignore me please, I make too much sense.
ARMED1
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2014-05-10 18:09:28 UTC  |  Edited by: ARMED1
Ahost Gceo wrote:
The only big difference that w-space has versus k-space are wormholes themselves, entrances that are never permanent and have mass limitations.

That said, the only thing I could see being tailored specifically for w-space as a ship role bonus is mass reduction.
We don't need "w-space specific ships".

What really needs to happen is a pass on T3s. There need to be more subsystems to give them more combinations and variety, and there also need to be some fixes on existing subsystems as well. For example, the drone subsystem for Proteus still makes it inferior to an Ishtar because it can't field 5 heavies/sentries. That's pretty stupid when technically a T2 should not be better than a T3. Making T3s superior to T2s with comparable roles will increase their demand, thus shifting the market to make them more expensive.

I could delve into how this would affect wormholers overall, but that is not the point of this thread.

TL:DR, we don't need w-space specific ships. Just improved and expanded T3 options.



I dont agree that there isnt a need for WH specific ships. Yes CCP may not be likely to offer them, but this thread is intended as a "what if" type of thread. Something to get the creative wheels spinning. Speaking specifically to your post above, there is another major difference in WH space aside from the temporary and mass limited nature of the WHs themselves. You are forgetting to mention that each type of WH has drastically different effects. Ships tailored to better exploit these effects could drive more variety in WH fleets and thus more player interest.

Also, while I am totally on board with expanded T3 options via subsystems etc I disagree that this is the ONLY thing that could be tailored to WH when it comes to ship hulls. Again I am opening a discussion of the "what if". For example, I think it would be great to have a COVOPS Interceptor! Something that, like the current Intys, was immune to bubbles but that also had additional capability. These ships could be COVOPS cloak capable, but also have scan bonuses for probing along with a zero recalibration delay and a zero recloaking delay. This would allow them to function better in the role of advance scouts for PVP. Not only could they probe and scout chains, but they would also have combat capbility where they could tackle and kill other small cloakys. It would be nice to have a ship to scout but also one capable of killing enemy scouts - kind of like the anti scout scouter.

Right now there isnt a combat ship specific for this role. You can put a point and a gun on a Cheetah (or other COVOPS) but thats not so spiffy. You could use an Astero but then you still have a longer recloaking delay and a recalibration delay. You can scan in a T3 but as advance scouts they are still kinda big and slow and have the other delay drawbacks not to mention a much greater ISK loss if you happen to lose one.

Also, WH ship options do not have to be limited to PVP ships. What about other functions within the WHs. Mining, gassing, PI, indutry and production? I see a lot of options left untouched. It is all very exciting and, while it may not be likely that we will see these ships created by CCP, it is still fun to dream. Maybe CCP will read this thread and then who knows what might happen...
ARMED1
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2014-05-10 18:14:07 UTC
ExookiZ wrote:
i dont think the prospect is aimed at us TBH, while Im not opposed to your idea im always game for new ships but I think your optimistic about thinking CCP was thinking of us.


You may be right that this ship isnt a CCP response aimed specifically at WHs. But, I do think that the ship was created to be used in both null and WH space. To say it was aimed solely at Null isn't right because Null isnt the only place where ninja gassing/mining takes place. I ninja gas in WHS all the time. Even when I am gassing a cleared site in a WH the Prophecy would outperform a Venture in every way. Not to mention that I gas outside my home system so a cloak is great for gassing hostile holes or traversing the chain. The expanded hold also means less trips back and forth and more time deployed making ISK!
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2014-05-10 19:11:56 UTC
I'm confused.

T3's were introduced with Wormholes
T3's are built from stuff collected in wormholes
T3's seem purpose built to excel in WH space due to their cruiser mass and ability to tank and punch a bit above their weight.

Seems like a ship line pretty specific to wormholes?
Kirasten
Perkone
Caldari State
#8 - 2014-05-10 19:23:02 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
I'm confused.

T3's were introduced with Wormholes
T3's are built from stuff collected in wormholes
T3's seem purpose built to excel in WH space due to their cruiser mass and ability to tank and punch a bit above their weight.

Seems like a ship line pretty specific to wormholes?



This.

I have been reading this thread thinking this exactly. T3 boats ARE boats specific to w-space. And they don't need fixed. There is an old phrase. "If it isn't broken, don't fix it." I am afraid of CCP even looking at them. Just leave w-space and our ships alone.
Tetsuo Tsukaya
Perkone
Caldari State
#9 - 2014-05-10 19:32:36 UTC
WHs already have plenty of options and in particular the scout role is nicely covered.

Need probe bonuses, tank and nullification? T3s are great for that.

Need instant lock ability? Bombers are great for that but the trade off is lower probe strength.

Need great probing ability and excellent on grid mobility? Covops fill that role perfectly, the trade off is less tank.

Want a covops with some survivability? Astero is great in that role and the trade off is very slightly lowered probe strength.

Need instant tackle that can race through bubbles? Interceptor fits that role great and the trade off is you need a scout to provide a warp in.


The idea of making trade offs to fly what you really need is what makes this an interesting choice. Making some kind of cloaked inty with no targeting delay and bonused probes is stupid because it would be the best ship for the job every time.

So, no.
ARMED1
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2014-05-10 19:56:03 UTC
Kirasten wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
I'm confused.

T3's were introduced with Wormholes
T3's are built from stuff collected in wormholes
T3's seem purpose built to excel in WH space due to their cruiser mass and ability to tank and punch a bit above their weight.

Seems like a ship line pretty specific to wormholes?



This.

I have been reading this thread thinking this exactly. T3 boats ARE boats specific to w-space. And they don't need fixed. There is an old phrase. "If it isn't broken, don't fix it." I am afraid of CCP even looking at them. Just leave w-space and our ships alone.



SIgh...

I think you are both missing the point of this thread. It is to discuss and imagine options outside of and beyond the current ships in game. Of course this is an open forum and everyone is and should be free to state their point of view so I am not discounting either of yours. Instead I am trying to nudge you in the direction of the intent of this post. To imagine what might be...

That being said, I also have to disagree with you on the above posts... Yes, T3s were released for WHs as you have mentioned, but T3s do not comprise and entire line of ships merely one category. To say that T3s wouldnt benefit from expanded options related to subsystems etc seems somewhat narrow minded as does saying that CCP shouldnt change them in any way. The latter seems inevitable given the imbalance in the current T3s. It is also inevitable that they will be changed in some ways given that all ship classes are being rebalanced over time. Adding additional subs etc would also open up more exciting possibilities for an already awesome category of ships!

Addressing for T3s themselves - they are not ideally suited for every aspect of life within WHs. There are many facets and functions of WH life that could be better served by having additional WH specific ships.

Lastly, I do not want to limit this discussion thread to debating the merits or drawbacks solely of T3s. There are many other threads already dedicated to that topic. Instead, I am encouraging outside the box thinking as it relates to the broader subject of ships or fitting options that do not currently exist in game.

As I stated in an earlier post, this thread is intended to be a fun exercise is the "what if". So in that vein of thinking I will offer another "what if" to hopefully encourage other posters to respond with their own original ideas...

What if we had ships designed specifically for closing WHS? I live in a C6 and we currently use multiple ships to roll the hole depending on mass. It would be very cool if there was a ship specifically designed for the utility of closing holes. No I am not talking about closing HICs. They are only useful right at the very end of mass... I am thinking of a ship that would work in any class WH. Say you are in a Class 4 WH and you want to close the hole... You jump in this ship - maybe it is fitted with a mod specific to the size of the WH you are trying to close. You warp to the hole and engage your mod - maybe there is a spooling up or charging period. After this period the ship is ready to close the hole. You activate the mod and jump though and then back. Pop - the hole is closed! Very cool!
ARMED1
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2014-05-10 20:08:59 UTC
Tetsuo Tsukaya wrote:
WHs already have plenty of options and in particular the scout role is nicely covered.

Need probe bonuses, tank and nullification? T3s are great for that.

Need instant lock ability? Bombers are great for that but the trade off is lower probe strength.

Need great probing ability and excellent on grid mobility? Covops fill that role perfectly, the trade off is less tank.

Want a covops with some survivability? Astero is great in that role and the trade off is very slightly lowered probe strength.

Need instant tackle that can race through bubbles? Interceptor fits that role great and the trade off is you need a scout to provide a warp in.


The idea of making trade offs to fly what you really need is what makes this an interesting choice. Making some kind of cloaked inty with no targeting delay and bonused probes is stupid because it would be the best ship for the job every time.

So, no.


I wasnt suggesting that there shouldnt be trade offs...

So you dont like the idea of my COVOPS Inty with all those bonuses. Fine maybe it only gets SOME of the bonuses. It would still be cool to just have a COVOPS Inty with no lock delay. But you are also missing the point of the thread. I wasnt trying to suggest a perfect ship. I am instead exploring the realm of what might be. My ideas are just that - ideas - I am offering these examples from my own wandering imagination. They are not meant to be perfect and I am not saying they should or will ever see the vastness of space inside EVE. However, these ideas are offered as a catalyst to start what I hope will be a fun discussion...

SIgh again... Another poster with lots to say but little imagination...
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2014-05-10 20:18:38 UTC
Sigh,

Then you failed with your OP.

Re-read it if you must.

When you put in lines such as

"Why dont we have a WH specific ship line?"

Without even mentioning or acknowledging T3's at all, it gives the distinct impression that you are coming from a position not understanding the T3 roots.

Had you simply addressed the existence of T3's in your OP, all of that could have been avoided. I for example would not have made my post at all

I agree it would be cool to see some sort of additional ships to come from the depths of wormhole space in addition to T3's. I'd have to give some thought as to what they would be like however.
ARMED1
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2014-05-10 20:58:23 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Sigh,

Then you failed with your OP.

Re-read it if you must.

When you put in lines such as

"Why dont we have a WH specific ship line?"

Without even mentioning or acknowledging T3's at all, it gives the distinct impression that you are coming from a position not understanding the T3 roots.

Had you simply addressed the existence of T3's in your OP, all of that could have been avoided. I for example would not have made my post at all

I agree it would be cool to see some sort of additional ships to come from the depths of wormhole space in addition to T3's. I'd have to give some thought as to what they would be like however.



Ok ok ok...

I thought the original post is fine given that I am starting a thread about the ships or options that dont already exist in game. I posed the idea of a new "line" of ships. Maybe I used the wrong wording here...

To mitigate future trolling I apologize to anyone who may have been offended that I didnt pay homage to T3s specifically being created from WHs. Yes I do know that backstory and had I known it would cause such a stir I might have worded things differently. When I typed the OP I was taking for granted that T3s already existed in game. Also, in my defense, when I wrote the phrase "line of ships" I was referring to a whole host of ship classes not just one specific class.

That brings me to another idea. This is an idea I just had for a ship. It would be a ship that you could get into and it would immediately warp you across the universe to any WH where there was a forum troll. Then this new ship would instapop the troll followed by a nice podding. The bonus of this ship? It would be on constant stand by. It would notify you and it would only work when the troll had a full slave set installed and a non updated clone :)

OK just kidding. And no offense on me calling you all on the trolling. It is expected - after all this is an EVE forum lol! But seriously - my bad for not being more specific to mention the T3s heritage! Now that I have made it right I would appreciate if we could get on with it.
Erica Dusette
Division 13
#14 - 2014-05-10 21:52:41 UTC
I'll support this idea so long as the new race is playable and has tentacles.

Shocked

Jack Miton > you be nice or you're sleeping on the couch again!

Part-Time Wormhole Pirate ツ Full-Time Supermodel

▷ worмнole dιary + cнaracтer вιoѕ ▷ вσss
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2014-05-10 22:07:09 UTC
ARMED1 wrote:

To mitigate future trolling I apologize to anyone who may have been offended that I didnt pay homage to T3s specifically being created from WHs.


Except those posts (including mine) weren't trolls. Mine was a sincere "umm did you forget about T3's?" reply as you made no mention as if you were ignorant of them. You don't have to pay homage to them.

Kupena
Xenophobics Asylum
#16 - 2014-05-10 22:54:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Kupena
ARMED1 wrote:

What if we had ships designed specifically for closing WHS? I live in a C6 and we currently use multiple ships to roll the hole depending on mass.[...]


I feel like this is working as intended. Lore-wise wh dwellers would probably make something of their own to collapse wormholes, some sort of mining barge with added hull-extensions or whatever to match the mass and collapse with ease but balance wise this would remove the various plays and counter-plays to wh collapsing.

Closing a wormhole has it's dangers. They should not be removed or the process made easy with a ship that can do it in one or two runs. Or done solo without it taking any more effort and time. Having a specialized ship for that would just remove content from the game. The custom kind of content Twisted.

By no means am I saying that we shouldn't have more wh-specialized ships. WH collapsing ship just seems anti-climatic to me. If anything - I don't think that wh-specific ships should make WH life safer or easier. It should be something for the hunt, for pvp, fights. Something that makes living in a wh more dangerous.
ARMED1
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2014-05-10 23:13:58 UTC
Kupena wrote:
ARMED1 wrote:

What if we had ships designed specifically for closing WHS? I live in a C6 and we currently use multiple ships to roll the hole depending on mass.[...]


I feel like this is working as intended. Lore-wise wh dwellers would probably make something of their own to collapse wormholes, some sort of mining barge with added hull-extensions or whatever to match the mass and collapse with ease but balance wise this would remove the various plays and counter-plays to wh collapsing.

Closing a wormhole has it's dangers. They should not be removed or the process made easy with a ship that can do it in one or two runs. Or done solo without it taking any more effort and time. Having a specialized ship for that would just remove content from the game. The custom kind of content Twisted.

By no means am I saying that we shouldn't have more wh-specialized ships. WH collapsing ship just seems anti-climatic to me. If anything - I don't think that wh-specific ships should make WH life safer or easier. It should be something for the hunt, for pvp, fights. Something that makes living in a wh more dangerous.


Good point on game content and WH safety! We must not do anything to make life safer in the WHS! Moar targets!!! Also good point about the lore of WHS - maybe instead of a ready made ship we could have more T3 style hull options on different scales. Then we could create and recreate our ships - piecing them together as we see fit!

Perhaps along these lines we could have T3 style frigates!!! Frigs with subsystems!!! Oh yes - now this I like!!!
AssassinationsdoneWrong
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#18 - 2014-05-10 23:14:40 UTC
Kirasten wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
I'm confused.

T3's were introduced with Wormholes
T3's are built from stuff collected in wormholes
T3's seem purpose built to excel in WH space due to their cruiser mass and ability to tank and punch a bit above their weight.

Seems like a ship line pretty specific to wormholes?



This.

I have been reading this thread thinking this exactly. T3 boats ARE boats specific to w-space. And they don't need fixed. There is an old phrase. "If it isn't broken, don't fix it." I am afraid of CCP even looking at them. Just leave w-space and our ships alone.


Agreed except for " T3's not-broken". There are so many subs combos not used just because they are just bad so the subs DO need a revamp. But yes, T3's ARE WH specific so I don't really see the point of this thread when there are larger fixes needed more than greater ship choice.

The Nexus 7's

What we fall short of in numbers we more than make up for in stupidity
ARMED1
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2014-05-10 23:36:19 UTC
AssassinationsdoneWrong wrote:
Kirasten wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
I'm confused.

T3's were introduced with Wormholes
T3's are built from stuff collected in wormholes
T3's seem purpose built to excel in WH space due to their cruiser mass and ability to tank and punch a bit above their weight.

Seems like a ship line pretty specific to wormholes?



This.

I have been reading this thread thinking this exactly. T3 boats ARE boats specific to w-space. And they don't need fixed. There is an old phrase. "If it isn't broken, don't fix it." I am afraid of CCP even looking at them. Just leave w-space and our ships alone.


Agreed except for " T3's not-broken". There are so many subs combos not used just because they are just bad so the subs DO need a revamp. But yes, T3's ARE WH specific so I don't really see the point of this thread when there are larger fixes needed more than greater ship choice.


Wow... T3s again... OK so if you think subs could be revamped offer some ideas THAT is the point of this thread.
ARMED1
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2014-05-10 23:45:03 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
ARMED1 wrote:

To mitigate future trolling I apologize to anyone who may have been offended that I didnt pay homage to T3s specifically being created from WHs.


Except those posts (including mine) weren't trolls. Mine was a sincere "umm did you forget about T3's?" reply as you made no mention as if you were ignorant of them. You don't have to pay homage to them.



Your sincerity is much appreciated as, I am sure, is my sarcasm.
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