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Dev blog: Fortune Favors the Bold

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mkint
#221 - 2014-05-08 01:22:14 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
More on the last post. It takes 5 seconds for said Catalyst to acquire a target lock on the Prospect. (~3.2 if they are able to fit a SeBoII in addition to the tracking computer, 3.3 with a cheap meta one). That sigrad bonus is obscenely powerful.


CCP Fozzie wrote:

Adding an ice mining Expedition Frigate in the future is definitely possible.



The general concept of ninja-mining in unfriendly space would be much more appealing if each anomaly outside highsec spawned with a small amount of very valuable resources that will be quickly depleted (perhaps just three asteroids of 250% density Arkanor in an anomaly where the rest is the standard 100/105/110% density ones). This would create an incentive to look for as-yet untouched anomalies, rewarding people that take the risk of going further afield and making up for the lost time travelling in search of these anomalies.

I think I'd support that if ore sites weren't anoms. But since they are too-easy-to-find anoms, maybe a 10% chance that any particular ore anom might spawn those high density asteroids. I agree with you that ninja mining just doesn't sound very profitable with the current ores in game. There's no way the value of any of the ores can go up enough to justify the risk and time sink of ninja mining and not just joining a low risk nullbear alliance instead, or a more reliable wormhole corp.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#222 - 2014-05-08 01:59:45 UTC
mkint wrote:

I think I'd support that if ore sites weren't anoms. But since they are too-easy-to-find anoms, maybe a 10% chance that any particular ore anom might spawn those high density asteroids. I agree with you that ninja mining just doesn't sound very profitable with the current ores in game. There's no way the value of any of the ores can go up enough to justify the risk and time sink of ninja mining and not just joining a low risk nullbear alliance instead, or a more reliable wormhole corp.


The good thing about anomolies is that not only are they easy for prey (miners) to find, they are also easy for predators to find.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Z1gy
Vindicator Corporation
#223 - 2014-05-08 04:15:02 UTC
@Fozzie, you keep talking about expedition frigates - does that mean we gonna have a new skill that need to be learned/trained to use them?

can we know the requirement ?

is cloaking skills needed as a prereq for this new skill ?

thanks
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#224 - 2014-05-08 08:35:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Adding an ice mining Expedition Frigate in the future is definitely possible.


Why are you obsessed with frigates? A cruiser size hull would be better balanced.

If you're going to create a separate ice mining ship then why aren't you creating separate ships for gas and ore mining? If you're not going to do that then It would make more sense to add an ice mining bonus to this new ship.

...It doesn't sound like you guys have thought this through.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Cydelle Abraham
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#225 - 2014-05-08 09:14:14 UTC
As the Prospect is a T2 frig I would really like to see a specialization towards gas mining. (The Venture already can either gas or ore, so its T2 variant should excel in one of those fields. Preferably gas as there already are specialized ore miner)

Also I'd like to see the prerequisites to fly this ship.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#226 - 2014-05-08 10:15:41 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Quick note: I'm not worried about the Prospect being used for afk FW farming since as of Kronos it will be impossible to cloak within capture range of a FW button.


I've been waiting for this for over a year..

**** yes.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#227 - 2014-05-08 15:41:17 UTC
The more i think about the Prospect, the less i like the thought of it being introduced...

The fact is that this ship is simply not needed. We already have 3 T2 mining ships in the game so why not give one or all of them the ability to use a covert ops cloak and the ability to jump through a covert bridge?

The balance between risk and reward would be a lot better if they did this, as trying to catch a hulk would be a lot easier than trying to can't a frigate.

As others have said, i think the Prospect should get a better gas harvesting yield than the venture, and exhumers should be change as I described above.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#228 - 2014-05-08 17:16:18 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
The more i think about the Prospect, the less i like the thought of it being introduced...

The fact is that this ship is simply not needed. We already have 3 T2 mining ships in the game so why not give one or all of them the ability to use a covert ops cloak and the ability to jump through a covert bridge?

The balance between risk and reward would be a lot better if they did this, as trying to catch a hulk would be a lot easier than trying to can't a frigate.

As others have said, i think the Prospect should get a better gas harvesting yield than the venture, and exhumers should be change as I described above.

Having a frigate sized ship is invaluable for mining in enemy territory. Even if you threw a covert cloak on a procurer, it would be very difficult to break through camps with it due to align times. I think most people are missing how good this ship is for gankers though. I'm going to be training three characters into it.

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

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Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#229 - 2014-05-08 22:25:11 UTC
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:

Having a frigate sized ship is invaluable for mining in enemy territory. Even if you threw a covert cloak on a procurer, it would be very difficult to break through camps with it due to align times.


I don't know about "invaluable", I'd call it a slightly overpowered luxury... Who needs to worry about getting past a gate camp when you can jump to a cyno?

Giving the same ability to the T2 mining barges would instantly revitalize the mining profession! Yes, mining barges are a lot less agile but that is part of the risk vs. reward balancing act. The mass of the ships would need to be adjusted to allow a fleet to be bridged.

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:

I think most people are missing how good this ship is for gankers though.


Better than what we already have?

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#230 - 2014-05-08 23:16:02 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:

I think most people are missing how good this ship is for gankers though.


Better than what we already have?



Under the assumption that my earlier calculations were correct it's practically indestructible when flown well and used in conjunction with external effects that reduce sigrad. And it can cloak and doesn't seem suspicious in a belt. This makes it an incredible tool for scouting.

Unless it is subject to at least one (and probably more) webs and/or target painters, it's just not getting hit by anything.

I will most certainly be training my scout alt into these and I expect a lot of the New Order will do the same.


I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#231 - 2014-05-08 23:20:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
To go with the proposed T2 Covert Mining Ship line;

--- Could call it a T2 Orca.
What I would like to see is an "Ore Compression" module - Can only be fitted to an Orca, uses Heavy Water or Capacitor as fuel.

Attributes;
10,000 m Capacity
30,000 m Fleet Hangar
100,000 m Ore Hold (with max skills and fitting)

Slot Layout;
4 High
4 Mid
2 Low

Role Bonus;
Can jump to Covert Cyno. (via covert jump portal)

Alternatively - 2 new rigs - Rig 1, creates Ore Hold - Rig 2, Ore Compression Module. Can only be fitted to Orca, powered by ships Capacitor.
T1 Ore Hold Rig - 75,000 m ore hold
T2 Ore Hold Rig - 100,000 m ore hold

T1 Ore Compression Module rig - 3 min Cycle time, 600 GJ to activate - Reduces to 1 min 30 sec & 400 GL at level 4
T2 Ore Compression Module, rig - 1 min 30 sec Cycle time 300 GJ activation - Reduced to 1 min cycle time and 200 GJ at level 5.

Ninja Mining could take on a whole new meaning.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Aalysia Valkeiper
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#232 - 2014-05-09 00:21:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Aalysia Valkeiper
Let me see if I understand this correctly

With Kronos Cloaking within range of an FW button will be impossible.

The Venture's saving grace for stabbed farming (its +2 stablized warp core) has been removed from the Prospect, yet the Prospect's correction for this (extra low-power slots) is unusable if the ship has to cross an accelleration gate to get to the location (since WCS aren't allowed to cross acc gates).

At what point is the Prospect supposed to be usefull in FW?

Disclaimer:
Please note I have no idea what FW is about and I am trying to learn. The statement about WCS not crossing acc gates was stated earlier in this thread and it set me to wondering... thus the statement above.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#233 - 2014-05-09 00:57:45 UTC
I wonder if anyone has told the FW farmers about the cloaking change. I don't recall seeing a blog on it yet :P
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#234 - 2014-05-09 02:49:42 UTC
Aalysia Valkeiper wrote:
...since WCS aren't allowed to cross acc gates...

I wish. And wrong thread.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#235 - 2014-05-09 11:17:38 UTC
Ok everyone. I've created the FW complex improvements thread in Features and Ideas with details. Please move the FW discussion over to that thread.

All that matters for this thread is that we are not worried that the Prospect will become a balance issue in FW.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#236 - 2014-05-09 13:04:14 UTC
When will the invention aspects hit Sisi so we can see what's involved in making them?

MDD
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#237 - 2014-05-09 14:42:58 UTC
What kind of resists are we looking at on this ?
Aalysia Valkeiper
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#238 - 2014-05-09 16:48:21 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. Thanks for the feedback so far.

I just got back to work after a bit of post-fanfest death plague recovery. I'm working through a bunch of threads to catch up on what was discussed over Fanfest and the last two days.

I've now caught up on this thread and I'm glad to see how many players are excited by the concept of this ship.

Quick note: I'm not worried about the Prospect being used for afk FW farming since as of Kronos it will be impossible to cloak within capture range of a FW button.

Great change, but does not go far enough. Please continue to make FW mean "Factional Warfare", not "Farming World".

To those who think PvPers have no right to be upset about FW farming: FW is advertised and intended as a semi-organized system for sovereignty-like PvP, with incentives for smaller fights in smaller ships. It's an admirable vision.

It is not what actually happens, though. Instead, who are the biggest "participants"? People who do not fight, and often do not even have the ability to fight. How are they so active in this "war"? By orbiting buttons and running away. Cloaks are part of this, but not the entirety. As long as FW pays out in full to people who refuse to fight, the problem will persist -- regardless of modules or ships.

So I'm just butthurt and like "telling people how to play" right? Wrong. These "farm and run" mechanics are actively hurting PvP in faction warfare. The prevalence of farmers makes looking for a fight a prolonged sequence of chasing red herring after red herring. PvPers use (or, want to use) the complexes as fight "arenas", nexuses for finding fights. We most often have no interest in boring ourselves to death capturing the complex, or in chasing after farmers.

When I'm in a Rifter and see another Rifter on d-scan in a plex, I get excited for a good fight. I warp there, activate the gate, get ready... and he runs away. I go to the next system. Same thing happens there. Next system, again. Then again several times more. This experience makes fighting in a system indended to promote fighting extremely frustrating. Yes, I can fit more scrams to catch farmers, but why would I want to? Those fights are not fun, and using that kind of fit makes many regular fights impossible too. Again, the problem is not that farmers are hard to catch. The problem is that they are there in the first place, providing the illusion of an upcoming fight, leading to an extremely unsatisfying rollercoaster of unfulfilled adrenaline and excitement.

On top of that, "farming" taking center stage in a "warfare" system over "fighting" is just misleading and wrong.

These are not fun mechanics. It's not cloaks or warp core stabilizers or farmers that are broken. It's the whole system. Please rethink it, CCP.

A step in the right direction: the capture meter degrades to "neutral" when nobody from either side is involved, and degrades at a higher rate when there are non-FW people present.


as someone who has no idea what Factional warfare is about, I found your post quite enlightening. The 'automactically-neutral' meter makes a lot of sense to my very limitted knowledge of FW.

I have one question, tho...

how would the system know who is "Non-FW"? I'm not being facetious, I'm actually curious.
Aalysia Valkeiper
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#239 - 2014-05-09 17:04:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Aalysia Valkeiper
Rek Seven wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Adding an ice mining Expedition Frigate in the future is definitely possible.


Why are you obsessed with frigates? A cruiser size hull would be better balanced.

If you're going to create a separate ice mining ship then why aren't you creating separate ships for gas and ore mining? If you're not going to do that then It would make more sense to add an ice mining bonus to this new ship.

...It doesn't sound like you guys have thought this through.


Well, just maybe THIS is the generic prototype for the line and the more specilized ice/gas/rock 'expedition frigates' are the line itself. Prototypes are usually generic 'jacks-of-all-trades' introducing lines of more dedicated 'specialists'.

Look at the new 'super-heavy' Gecko drone CCP introduced foy the 11th year birthday bash. Do you actually think they'd just create a prototype (as the Prospect has been stated to be) and not make other, more specilized 'super-heavy' drones?

As for making cruiser-sized versions... why not test the waters, first? Get an idea of what is needed and what would be excessive. Then decide if the next iteration is needed.
Aalysia Valkeiper
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#240 - 2014-05-09 17:20:00 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Ok everyone. I've created the FW complex improvements thread in Features and Ideas with details. Please move the FW discussion over to that thread.

All that matters for this thread is that we are not worried that the Prospect will become a balance issue in FW.


if my very-limitted understanding of FW is correct, I can see why you're not worried. I'm checking in that other thread in hopes to learn more about FW.