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[Kronos] Factional Warfare Complex Improvements

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Author
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#81 - 2014-05-09 15:27:31 UTC
Nyjil Lizaru wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Nyjil Lizaru wrote:



Also, I don't mind my falling sec status too much, but I wouldn't mind it falling a bit slower - especially for fighting in a plex.

Join a FW corp or alliance, then your sec status only drops when fighting non members of FW.

I don't see why non FW members think they are entitled to Pvp free of penalties for fighting in plexes - It's not like it has anything to do with FW. Your only there for lowsec Pvp. Which has sec status penalties attached to it.

Ummm... I *am* in FW, and I wonder what the logic is for my losing sec status while fighting pirates in a FW plex.

You're shooting neutral pilots who aren't at war with you. Sec status is a CONCORD thing, not an empire / faction thing. Different rules apply.

Though I'd love to see folks get a suspect timer on entering a FW plex, that'd go a long way to making it easier to maintain sec status in FW.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."

Leslie Aucie
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#82 - 2014-05-09 15:31:05 UTC
Do you think instead of allowing any size of ship to enter into any size of complex, we could restrict upper movement and rebalance the rewards to compensate for this? Battlecruisers and above for large, but a higher reward/risk because of what you're flying?
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
Villore Accords
#83 - 2014-05-09 15:32:16 UTC
Marcel Devereux wrote:


The after downtime spawning advantage needs to be addressed with these changes too. Can you put a delay in the spawning of the plexes after down time?


+1
Fisty The Gesticulate Bushmaster
Goryn Clade
#84 - 2014-05-09 15:40:34 UTC
Why not just make it so that if you are cloaked or leave the plex then the plex you were running counts down at double or triple the speed? Why not just make it reset to 0 automatically? This would make it far from beneficial to cloaking up and avoiding fights.
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
Villore Accords
#85 - 2014-05-09 15:42:26 UTC
Fisty The Gesticulate Bushmaster wrote:
Why not just make it so that if you are cloaked or leave the plex then the plex you were running counts down at double or triple the speed? Why not just make it reset to 0 automatically? This would make it far from beneficial to cloaking up and avoiding fights.


They stated that they can't get timer rollbacks/dual timers in on this patch.

Resetting to zero is too big of a hit considering how often people will blob plexes and push you out.
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#86 - 2014-05-09 15:44:42 UTC
can we pls have neutrals getting a suspect flag or limited engagment when they enter the plex?

they are there to shoot me. if i shoot first i take sec status hitz.

unfair ccp
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#87 - 2014-05-09 15:44:53 UTC
Maybe replace the orbiting mechanic with a deployable you need to defend? That would render the whole cloaking and warpstabbing obsolete.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#88 - 2014-05-09 15:45:12 UTC
Nyjil Lizaru wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Nyjil Lizaru wrote:



Also, I don't mind my falling sec status too much, but I wouldn't mind it falling a bit slower - especially for fighting in a plex.

Join a FW corp or alliance, then your sec status only drops when fighting non members of FW.

I don't see why non FW members think they are entitled to Pvp free of penalties for fighting in plexes - It's not like it has anything to do with FW. Your only there for lowsec Pvp. Which has sec status penalties attached to it.



Ummm... I *am* in FW, and I wonder what the logic is for my losing sec status while fighting pirates in a FW plex.


Let them fire the 1st shot.. You don't lose sec status (just don't pod)

FW is far from perfect and is very much split between, those who want to be a part of faction warfare and those who want to hunt in FW. Right now the Pvp balance is tilted towards the latter.

Those who simply want to hunt in FW should face normal lowsec penalties for engaging in Pvp.
Those who are members of FW and in a system controlled by their faction should be able to protect that system from anyone who enters it with the intention of engaging in PVP, without loss of Security Status.

Give FW members who want to engage in Pvp a free pass for neutral ship kills. It may just see FW membership increase as it then becomes Lowsec Pvp without consequences.

My opinions are mine.

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It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#89 - 2014-05-09 15:48:22 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Let's make fare not war.

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DJ FunkyBacon
Rabid Ninja Space Monkey Inc.
Monkeys with Guns.
#90 - 2014-05-09 15:54:05 UTC
Large plex change, is awesome.

NPC respawn I have mixed feelings on, especially if the respawns will interfere with PVP.

The cloak change solves no issue that we have, and actually kills one of the most reliable ways to hunt stabbed farmers, to say nothing for the baited ambush tactic using cov ops type ships to set traps. I think this change hurts more than it helps.

Cloaky farmers tend to be at their keyboards and checking d-scan so they can cloak before you are on grid or can get a target lock on them. Now all they need to do is sit 29,500 meters off the button and move for 2 seconds before they can cloak up. The only difference between a cloaking farmer and one that will otherwise run is that the cloaky farmer does not need to warp off/warp back.

I think many people in the FW community are more concerned with the AFK plexers running multi stabbed frigs that are able to plex with minimized clients, using an audio cue to let them know when to maximize and warp off. The respawn change may do something to cause them to come back to the keys every few minutes, but the jury is still out on whether the respawn will tip the balance in what would otherwise be an extremely close 1v1 PVP fight. I've personally been in many fights where even a couple hundred damage would tip the balance.

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Joccob
#91 - 2014-05-09 15:57:27 UTC
Kale Freeman wrote:
Cloak up or leave grid, countdown resets.


Add another vote for this. Let the boredom commence...
Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#92 - 2014-05-09 16:01:23 UTC
Abrazzar wrote:
Maybe replace the orbiting mechanic with a deployable you need to defend? That would render the whole cloaking and warpstabbing obsolete.


That's brilliant. Abandon a site you are trying to capture and your deployable gets shot out from under you. Adds a real cost to running away. Also gives more incentive to chase down farmers; at least you'd get a KM for the deployable even if you can't catch the little stabbed @$%&@ers.

Even better, different size deployables for the different size plexes.. make the deployable for the large sites take up 250m3 or so in cargo. Just one more roadblock for people trying to farm medium/larges in quiet systems with stabbed frigates. Sure, it's not that hard to circumvent, but still, pushes the balance towards people using larger ships for larger sites and then sticking around to defend it.
Nick Starkey
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#93 - 2014-05-09 16:08:14 UTC
Berluth Luthian wrote:

How would you design a system that makes fighting more profitable than 'farming'? I can't imagine that this wouldn't quickly be abused by people just burning ships.

To say that it isn't the cloaks/stabs that is the problem isn't really thinking it through. You need a resource that's worth fighting over in order to generate fights. To suggest that you could make a system that is purely PvP would be silly.

Part of what FW is, is a labor pool of work hours that converts time spent plexing into LP, which converts ships and modules and other goods into better ships/modules/implants/decryptors that wouldn't otherwise exist. It effectively becomes specialized labor, so at its root it provides a core economic product to the community. To make the warzone entirely about PvP would be to overlook this.


Nobody is saying we need a system that rewards and forces people to PVP. That is unrealistic and open to abuse. But a system where it's much more impractical to passively farm with absolutely no investment is very easy to achieve, and that's all that's needed. Dual timers, timer rollbacks, dynamic complex spawn rates? We've all heard about those by now for years.

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Juin Tsukaya
Perkone
Caldari State
#94 - 2014-05-09 16:12:27 UTC

old saying, 2 parts to a fight, knowing when TO fight, and knowing when TO RUN. Stabs aren't an invalid option.
Caval Marten
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#95 - 2014-05-09 16:15:12 UTC
DJ FunkyBacon wrote:
Large plex change, is awesome.

NPC respawn I have mixed feelings on, especially if the respawns will interfere with PVP.

The cloak change solves no issue that we have, and actually kills one of the most reliable ways to hunt stabbed farmers, to say nothing for the baited ambush tactic using cov ops type ships to set traps. I think this change hurts more than it helps.

Cloaky farmers tend to be at their keyboards and checking d-scan so they can cloak before you are on grid or can get a target lock on them. Now all they need to do is sit 29,500 meters off the button and move for 2 seconds before they can cloak up. The only difference between a cloaking farmer and one that will otherwise run is that the cloaky farmer does not need to warp off/warp back.

I think many people in the FW community are more concerned with the AFK plexers running multi stabbed frigs that are able to plex with minimized clients, using an audio cue to let them know when to maximize and warp off. The respawn change may do something to cause them to come back to the keys every few minutes, but the jury is still out on whether the respawn will tip the balance in what would otherwise be an extremely close 1v1 PVP fight. I've personally been in many fights where even a couple hundred damage would tip the balance.


Agree with this 100%

FW plexes are probably the most ideal places in all of Eve for 1v1 combat. Adding even single digit dps to one side of the fight can completely alter the outcome. One possible alternative is make it so that an NPC doesn't respawn if two people from different militias are in the plex.

Cloaking change is less than ideal. Stabs are more of an issue.

And just to reiterate the point many have made before.. the timer should start rolling back once a contesting pilot leaves the capture area. Right now a farmer can happily leave a dangerous situation knowing they can return later to the plex with no timer penalty.
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#96 - 2014-05-09 16:16:10 UTC
DJ FunkyBacon wrote:
NPC respawn I have mixed feelings on, especially if the respawns will interfere with PVP.

They're lowering the rat DPS and increasing active tank, so they should be a non-issue to PvP. In addition, PvP fits will be able to burst through their reps faster and melt them faster. I don't think we've got much to worry about here. Really really close fights are an edge case, and I don't think that building the mechanics around them is the best design decision. Besides, this kind of change means you can't simply clear a system with your main and leisurely roll through in your multistabbed gunless frigate with your alt to cap the plexes.

Quote:
Cloaky farmers tend to be at their keyboards and checking d-scan so they can cloak before you are on grid or can get a target lock on them.

From what I've heard, a good portion are bots. Namely, they cloak when you get on d-scan, but if you enter the plex and cloak up, they immediately decloak to run the timer. No player at the keyboard would do that, since they'd have seen that Astero enter the plex and know not to decloak. Having a change like this will hose those kinds of bots while not penalizing actual players who are actually at the keyboard.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."

Squizz Caphinator
Stribog Clade
#97 - 2014-05-09 16:33:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Squizz Caphinator
Warp core stabs give your ship a penalty when you fit them. Why not extend this penalty?

Just going to toss out some numbers here:
1 warp core stab: increases time on button by 50%
2 warp core stabs increases time on button by 75%
3 warp core stabs increases time on button by 87.5%
etc. etc.

Those numbers might be a bit harsh, but I'm sure they portray the idea.

Edit:

What if more than one ship has stabs? The button will just count the number of stabs on ships within its bubble and the timer will tick down accordingly.

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Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#98 - 2014-05-09 16:38:14 UTC
Squizz Caphinator wrote:
Warp core stabs give your ship a penalty when you fit them. Why not extend this penalty?

Just going to toss out some numbers here:
1 warp core stab: increases time on button by 50%
2 warp core stabs increases time on button by 75%
3 warp core stabs increases time on button by 87.5%
etc. etc.

Those numbers might be a bit harsh, but I'm sure they portray the idea.

Too specific to a single application, FW farming. Granted it's one of the few places where they're so prevalent, but I'd rather see a more general penalty (DPS or tank, preferably DPS if we're targeting FW farming) or a change to plexing mechanics. I feel the current proposal to change the DPS hurdle for the NPCs and cause them to respawn is the first step in changing the plexing mechanics to deal with farmers.

I'd rather see how that plays out rather than try to implement something like the above.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."

Kale Freeman
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2014-05-09 16:44:57 UTC
The combination of WCS reducing DPS and putting in some sort of DPS check into plexing would work.

There should be a neutral NPC in the plex that does not agress you. The timer won't move while the NPC is alive. The NPC does minimal dmg, but has a reasonable tank. The NPC respawns every few minutes.

NPC needs to be removed for offensive and defensive plexing.

DJ FunkyBacon
Rabid Ninja Space Monkey Inc.
Monkeys with Guns.
#100 - 2014-05-09 16:47:19 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:

From what I've heard, a good portion are bots. Namely, they cloak when you get on d-scan, but if you enter the plex and cloak up, they immediately decloak to run the timer. No player at the keyboard would do that, since they'd have seen that Astero enter the plex and know not to decloak. Having a change like this will hose those kinds of bots while not penalizing actual players who are actually at the keyboard.


It's possible to warp into a plex without decloaking at the warp in beacon. It's random chance of course, but happens about half the time.

I also wonder how many of these bots are out there, and are not just dumb players.

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