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[Counter Future Release] Glimpse Probes
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Celestarias
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2014-05-08 18:29:08 UTC
HTC NecoSino wrote:
Quote:
1aa. YES: This is occupied!
1ab. NO: This is probably yet another abandoned system. Consider rolling it immediately.
1b. NO: This is probably empty. Contemplate rolling it if they don't have a decent number of holes for moving around.


We want this probe and historical data because, due to the sheer nature of WH space, very few entities have pilots online through all time-zones. If I am a US pilot and I find a system with towers, and those towers belong to an AU/RU corp, or even 50% of EU corps, guess what? It may as well be empty to me.

Or it could simply be a weekender farming corp that only has a handful of pilots log in for a few hours each week. Again, might as well be empty.

The glimpse probe would allow us to quickly gather a rough idea regarding the times when there are active pilots in this system.


This is why you're looking for forcefields, not for Towers alone.

People don't live in towers without forcefields. If there's a forcefield, it's being fueled, which means someone lives there.

Stalk your prey from there out. Why /must/ you know historical data about NPC kills? Scout your targets like everyone else who wants a juicy kill.
HTC NecoSino
Suddenly Carebears
#22 - 2014-05-08 19:12:23 UTC
Celestarias wrote:
This is why you're looking for forcefields, not for Towers alone. People don't live in towers without forcefields. If there's a forcefield, it's being fueled, which means someone lives there.

Stalk your prey from there out. Why /must/ you know historical data about NPC kills? Scout your targets like everyone else who wants a juicy kill.


Again, a tower does not imply active. There are corps that are only active 3-5 hours/week, an online tower wouldn't tell me this, historical data might. The part you forget is that a connection is never open >24 hours. If I want pew, I'm not going to seed alts into every system just for the off chance that there might be something there someday! Oh, and there could still be activity when I'm not online, and I wouldn't even know!

Cassini Valentine wrote:
Just to clarify, the debris that is being discussed is left over from sleeper sites/pewpew can be detected after wrecks have been salvaged?


From any pew, anything destroyed, be it a ship, sleeper, pod, POS, POS mod, etc. It's indiscernible what it is, only that it's there and it's (approximately) xx hours old.
unimatrix0030
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2014-05-09 10:58:39 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
I live in w-space so I fully understand the challenges once the API data has gone. But to be fair its pretty easy to work out whether a system is occupied or not from eve-kill.net (and aggregation services like wormhole.es and its successor).

If you want to work out the daily ratting times of w-space carebears then I think it's only fair that you (and I) are forced to watch them physically

In my view w-space is far too advantageous to the aggressor. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy having the advantages but I think we have had such an advantage for so long that we have driven most of the carebears back to k-space.

A few years ago you only had to roll a few holes to find a blinged-up solo ratting tengu in an anomaly. These days it can take all night!

I'd rather have more opportunity because of increased players in w-space, at the expense of having to physically observe a system (which I do anyway).


With this post you admit that there is no way to get the data the api now gives .
Because no one can be online and scouting for 48hours.

No local in null sec would fix everything!
Cassini Valentine
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2014-05-09 12:08:37 UTC
unimatrix0030 wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
I live in w-space so I fully understand the challenges once the API data has gone. But to be fair its pretty easy to work out whether a system is occupied or not from eve-kill.net (and aggregation services like wormhole.es and its successor).

If you want to work out the daily ratting times of w-space carebears then I think it's only fair that you (and I) are forced to watch them physically

In my view w-space is far too advantageous to the aggressor. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy having the advantages but I think we have had such an advantage for so long that we have driven most of the carebears back to k-space.

A few years ago you only had to roll a few holes to find a blinged-up solo ratting tengu in an anomaly. These days it can take all night!

I'd rather have more opportunity because of increased players in w-space, at the expense of having to physically observe a system (which I do anyway).


With this post you admit that there is no way to get the data the api now gives .
Because no one can be online and scouting for 48hours.



I think the glimse probes idea comes to a good compromise, that you can't have the data from a full 48hours ago but rather 12 hours ago or less could be sufficient and that the accuracy in pinpointing the time the last sleepers/stuff got pewed could be so crude that you would have to do manual scouting anyway to determine exact hours of activity.

As far as i'm aware the only way to logoffski is to scout a system over 23.5 hours to keep an eye on ship composiition, pilots, play times, alts, Sleeper site strategy etc. The probe idea shouldn't make this any easier but should give an indication of whether or not a WH is active with players interacting with the environment or each other so you as to stick around to observe.
HTC NecoSino
Suddenly Carebears
#25 - 2014-05-09 15:02:20 UTC
Cassini Valentine wrote:

I think the glimse probes idea comes to a good compromise, that you can't have the data from a full 48hours ago but rather 12 hours ago or less could be sufficient and that the accuracy in pinpointing the time the last sleepers/stuff got pewed could be so crude that you would have to do manual scouting anyway to determine exact hours of activity.

As far as i'm aware the only way to logoffski is to scout a system over 23.5 hours to keep an eye on ship composiition, pilots, play times, alts, Sleeper site strategy etc. The probe idea shouldn't make this any easier but should give an indication of whether or not a WH is active with players interacting with the environment or each other so you as to stick around to observe.


I'd still like to see 36 hrs+, but the idea is to be a compromise. The probes wouldn't return exact times, only rough estimates that could be used to gauge overall activity levels, not pinpoint when farmers will be on next (unless you stick in a scout).
HTC NecoSino
Suddenly Carebears
#26 - 2014-05-11 01:11:36 UTC
Why hasn't his been done yet!?
HTC NecoSino
Suddenly Carebears
#27 - 2014-05-12 16:38:34 UTC
Any feedback? Would love to hear a dev's thoughts on this, especially FoxFour
Alundil
Rolled Out
#28 - 2014-05-12 19:02:26 UTC
A bump, as well as a reference to an alternate proposal that could address the same lost functionality

System Occupancy Surveillance

I'm right behind you
HTC NecoSino
Suddenly Carebears
#29 - 2014-05-12 19:13:01 UTC
I, personally, don't like the idea of an anchorable structure for this, simply because it goes too much against the whole "free intel without being present" idea. Plus, how would these things report the data back to you? Surely not through a wormhole.

Although, a giant, shootable probe launched into space for 5 minutes is pretty much the same thing I suppose, lol. I just prefer the probe idea since:

1: that's what it is doing, probing.
2: Only the pilot that launches it gets the intel, not everyone
3: It's active, and requires pilot interaction to get data
4: It makes the pilot vulnerable by screaming "I'm here, I'm looking for farmers to kill"
Alundil
Rolled Out
#30 - 2014-05-12 19:24:45 UTC
HTC NecoSino wrote:
I, personally, don't like the idea of an anchorable structure for this, simply because it goes too much against the whole "free intel without being present" idea. Plus, how would these things report the data back to you? Surely not through a wormhole.

Although, a giant, shootable probe launched into space for 5 minutes is pretty much the same thing I suppose, lol. I just prefer the probe idea since:

1: that's what it is doing, probing.
2: Only the pilot that launches it gets the intel, not everyone
3: It's active, and requires pilot interaction to get data
4: It makes the pilot vulnerable by screaming "I'm here, I'm looking for farmers to kill"


To your points.

The data is no longer "free" if effort and expense must be taken to receive the benefit. There is also a very hard counter to this form of intel gathering - simply kill it. Unlike probes that can move around very very quickly and can be recalled instantly from anywhere in the system.
1. Data would/could be reported back via a "remote data feed" visible in the scanner window. Remote viewing of data is already ingame in mechanics like PI
2. In the case of the SOS, I'm open to either option. Launch for self only. Launch for self/corp, either is fine by me.
3. Dropping the SOS in a manner that would make detection (and subsequent destruction) difficult would be equally active and potentially more dangerous than decloaking for 3 seconds to drop probes.
4. Combat probing does/declares the very same things. Though I'd hardly call combat probing a "vulnerable" job since it is rarely done uncloaked.

I'm right behind you
HTC NecoSino
Suddenly Carebears
#31 - 2014-05-12 19:32:12 UTC
Alundil wrote:

The data is no longer "free" if effort and expense must be taken to receive the benefit. There is also a very hard counter to this form of intel gathering - simply kill it. Unlike probes that can move around very very quickly and can be recalled instantly from anywhere in the system.
1. Data would/could be reported back via a "remote data feed" visible in the scanner window. Remote viewing of data is already ingame in mechanics like PI
2. In the case of the SOS, I'm open to either option. Launch for self only. Launch for self/corp, either is fine by me.
3. Dropping the SOS in a manner that would make detection (and subsequent destruction) difficult would be equally active and potentially more dangerous than decloaking for 3 seconds to drop probes.
4. Combat probing does/declares the very same things. Though I'd hardly call combat probing a "vulnerable" job since it is rarely done uncloaked.


My glimpse probe lacks a warp drive and would be stationary.
Alright, so while scanning with a glimpse probe, you cannot cloak :D Kind of fits the name, too. You get a glimpse, but so does anyone watching you ;)

Further thoughts: You have to be on-grid from the glimpse probe, decloaked, for it to scan successfully.

Jumping does not recall a glimpse probe that is actively scanning, so it can get popped if someone scans you down and you have to jump/warp
Alundil
Rolled Out
#32 - 2014-05-12 19:57:11 UTC
Your proposal mentions no-warp (sorry I missed that) but no where does it mention preventing the pilot from re-cloaking while the scan happens or requiring the ship to be uncloaked to scan, or the ongrid thing, for that matter. So the glimpse is exactly the same as launching any other kind of probe (ie 2-3 seconds max for the ship to be on scan).

I'm right behind you
HTC NecoSino
Suddenly Carebears
#33 - 2014-05-12 20:08:03 UTC
It's a conversation starter, we converse, come up with ideas, how to improve it, make it balanced, etc.

I like the idea of having to be on-grid, not 100% on being decloaked though.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#34 - 2014-05-27 15:57:15 UTC
“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.”


- Henry Ford



how about we instead think of better ways to produce conflict other than keeping this shady, awkward mechanic alive?

I should buy an Ishtar.
HTC Nex
Suddenly Carebears
#35 - 2014-06-04 00:05:28 UTC
Amazing idea, CCP get this **** done!
Alundil
Rolled Out
#36 - 2014-06-04 00:16:39 UTC
HTC Nex wrote:
Amazing idea, CCP get this **** done!

Alt post spotted?

I'm right behind you
Apelacja
Sad Najwyzszy
#37 - 2014-06-16 22:46:09 UTC
and where is risk with those probes?

make it like FW HUB u are not able to cloack and need to wait 20 min in range otherwise timer will reset. Also beacon of such as probe should be visible in overview.

And now i wait for flames from great PVP`er side : " och no! it will be too risky".
Alundil
Rolled Out
#38 - 2014-06-17 00:31:18 UTC
Apelacja wrote:
and where is risk with those probes?

make it like FW HUB u are not able to cloack and need to wait 20 min in range otherwise timer will reset. Also beacon of such as probe should be visible in overview.

And now i wait for flames from great PVP`er side : " och no! it will be too risky".

Or something like the SoS in my Sig?

I'm right behind you
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#39 - 2014-06-17 02:19:29 UTC
HTC NecoSino wrote:
New Probe:
Glimpse Probes

Scan Time = 300s (5 minutes)
Only 1 would be needed to scan an entire solar system, so maybe have it take up 1/2 or all of the space available in an expanded probe launcher.

What this probe does is scans a system for the dust and debris left behind from battle. Based on the strength/faintness of the signal, the probe can approximate the time frame that the debris was generated (maybe in 2 or 4 hour blocks). It would not be able to differentiate the type of debris (ships, NPC, pods, structures, etc).

Have this probe be lockable, with the same signature of, say, a noob ship, due to it's deep scanning abilities. Thus if someone launches a probe and then cloaks, a hostile could come and pop it. (Make these babies expensive!). The probe would scan from where it is launched, and would not have a warp-drive.


...or...

Just use DotLan maps and work out how many NPC's have been killed from the graph.


MIND. BLOWN.

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