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[Proposal] WiS reenacted: duels to death.
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Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2014-05-08 01:07:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Ray Kyonhe
Let's get straight to the point. Why cruel and indifferent world of New Eden strips capsuleers of native right to end their miserable lives for some honourable (or simply insanely profitable) cause.. or end a miserable life of some other fellow capsuleer? Or just cripple him to find solace in his sufferings? It's hard to achive by simply burning him hundred times in a nuclear inferno, but could become true if both of you intend to resolve it, now and for all.

One of the most anticipated idea for hypothetical WiS content is gambling. Gambling with ingame tools in place which will secure and enforce change of ownership of any property used as a bid (from isk to ships to colonies and giant anchorable structures). But why should inhabitants of such harsh place as New Eden restrict itself only to money and material property while making bids? Why can't one bid its own life (or part of his mental health) if other players are okay with that? The exact mechanics are still uncertain. Should the winner aquire the character of a loser, or should loser just be biomassed? Or should he be given some grace period to garther enough money to repay his debt, and only if he hadn't succeed he would meet his dire end - lets leave those questions unanswered for now.

What will be our main topic of interest is the case when two capsuleers hate each other so deeply (or found themselves in a pinch from where only one can walk out with immeasurable profit) that either of them don't mind to risk his life if it will end the existence of other.

Yes, one can say "This is a sandbox, just talk over the details, find a credible mediator and make this happen; with some third party tools, perhaps" But in case of affairs of such intricate matter that just won't work as well. You can't force your opponent to follow an agreement without help of some ingame mechanics. What kind of duel this will become if your fallen foe just refuse to die? And can those third party tools be fully trusted in such case of crucial importance? And by handing out credentials for your account to the mediator (what is mandatory to finalize a death contract) you are breaking the EULA.
Thats why we need a new type of a contract and ingame tools to resolve such disputes. A contract which obliges signatories to accept immidiate and final death, or some kind of mutilation, or substantial lose of material wealth, as soon as one of them lost in a duel of any chosen type to another and tools that transform the resolution process into a form entertaining to the general public ready to greedily absorb every single second of it.

Now in following posts let's look at each aspect in detail.

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Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2014-05-08 01:08:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Ray Kyonhe
1) The theory behind (by lore).

AFAIK, Chronicles teach us little about what happens if for some reason results of pre-death brain scan won't reach its target clone (which can easly happen as those transmitted over the standart FTL channels and so pass through routers which supervised by special department of Concord; anything could happen here). From some bits of information it seems there are means to make backup copies of itself preliminarily, not just at the time of death. But official articles on cloning state that capsuleers have to rely on emergency brain scan while on the verge of death, without options.
So, by creating a contract with some unprejudiced third party which has enough authority to unsubscribe losing side from clone services (or interfere with/block communications in such manner that it will harm the loser's mind while it's being transmitted in digital form) participants will achieve their goal.

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Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2014-05-08 01:09:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Ray Kyonhe
2) The contract.

Because Concord serves as a supervisor to all cloning and consciousness transplantation affairs (and as it readily allows a small private war in empire space for a lump sum of money), it is a no brainer to chose it as a mediator and issuer of contract of needed type.

The process of signing a duel contract goes as follows:

  • a) Contract's issuing is initiated simultaneously by both sides
  • b) If requests made by both sides on step (a) within 5 minutes of each other include proper name of their intended opponent, they are paired together and agreement phase sets off
  • c) In agreement phase both sides are presented with dueling contract dialog where they should set intended consequences which will befall them in case of defeat and specify means to resolve their dispute ("Weapon of choice"), as well as schedule of duel attempts and possible number of sessions (they could decide to fight five "battles" and determine the winner by number of points accumulated, and set the daily schedule for a whole week with battle sessions at specific time), what will happen in case someone won't attend to fight within the specified period and in a case of draw (should the contract just be terminated, or both participants should perish, or another battle will has to enshue, and than again until clear resolution?) In case of duel to death/severe mental traumas additionally lower limit of sp can be set to enshure that using a low sp alt won't be possible.
    • As for intended consequences for the loser, those can vary greatly (any suggestions are welcomed). Note that it isn't mandatory for both sides to set identical stakes, as long as they both agree, it perfectly acceptale to bid your life vs money, or your position as a CEO vs severe "mind burn" resulting in losing random skill. So, as for now, they are: lose your life, lose some random skill/skill levels, hand over your (or your corp's or alliance's, if you have authorizations needed) property (this includes POSes and outposts, and planet colonies, and claimed regions of nullsec space (as proposed by Little Dragon Khamez - tnx a lot) if game's engine can be tuned to do the trick), hand over your position within corporate hierarchy, hand over the full api to your character/corp that last for specifed amount of time and can't be deleted via web interface. Or prize for the winner can be set by some third party. Basically, it can be anything both sides are ready to accept.
  • d) After setting all the intended options both will press the "Sign here" button which will send their "contract page" to opponent for verification. At this point the system checks both capsuleers' skill point ammounts and (probably) its distribution over different skill groups and in a case gap between them is too large both presented with each other skill roster for assesment (it's unfair to duel to a death with 50kk sp character against someone having only 10kk, at least without knowing it). After verifying each other's "stakes" and settings (UI should clearly highlight any discrepancies in it to draw their attention) they press "Sign here again" button accepting terms of the contract. After reaching this stage the contract is irreversible.
  • f) Contracts are resolved automatically and immideately upon the moment winner is decided.

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Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2014-05-08 01:10:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Ray Kyonhe
3) The means.

Capsuleers are definetly not birds of a feather. Different backgrounds, different motivations, different interests in different activites. This won't be a big suprise to find out that some of them are quite proficient with edged weapons or firearms, and others tend to have more prudent and wary behavior.

With emerging of DUST mercs and (hypothetical) WiS project restarting, we live in anticipation of a new scientific discovery which will allow reliable out-of-the-egg memory transplantation. What that means is that even by choosing a sword duel and losing, capsuleer won't lose his life.. until he is helped by someone pretty powerfull to tamper with clonning facilities. That makes such duels pretty acceptable even for most paranoid types. And those prefering more intellectual ways to compete could as easly choose a game of cards as means for resolving a dispute (as long as opponent agrees with that) - this doesnt really matters as any harm that will enshue will be totally unrelated to the weapons or tools used. It's all just a matter of good thrilling show, or of a habit.

As for possible contests, there are stringent requirements they must meet:

  • a) It should as little as possible be affected by contenders' internet connection's quality. Ideally it shouldn't at all. In any case it must offer chance to reconnect to the ongoing duel if connection was lost for a brief moment.
  • b) As a consequence of the (a) it must not be a test for reflexes, speed and accuracy of cursor positioning and the like. Yes, no real time brawling or draw duels, at least not as the main methods of disputes' resolving.
  • c) It should introduce participants to some unpredictable (or even better, highly fluctuating) environment and press them to make quick decisions (to prevent using some unfair technical assistance in finding the solution - and this is another reason why it has to be implemented within game client, too). Better still, it should be made in such a way that it would be hard to assume outcome of a contest at any moment while it lasts.

For now I've been able to come up with 2 solid options:

  1. Sword duel with the solid and time-tested mechanics of web browser based mmorpgs of particular sort.
  2. Any type of logical games (card games, chess, even pool will do) suited for two players, in blitz mode (means with short turn timeout). The more it resistable for external (unfair) machine analysis - the better.

As for sword battle mechanics I suggest to use the one borrowed from browser mmorpgs of dueling type. It's so simple and transparent that could be described just in one paragraph. It's also unpredictable enough to make almost any analysis meaningless:

  • a) Let's assume the base damage is equal to x and HP amount of each combatant is y*x (where y and x are some intergers)
  • b) There are 4 target zones (head, chest, abdomen, legs) and 4 blocking zones (head+chest, chest+abdomen, abdomen+legs, legs+head)
  • c) Both combatants choose one target zone (where to hit their enemy) and one blocking zone (which region of their own body they will try to protect) each turn
  • d) Strikes are resolved simultaneously. Blocks negate strikes compelely. If strike hits area unprotected by block, it either does base damage, or some additional checks can be made (like, for dodging/parrying/critical hit; those could easly be given constant probability rates, with parrying having some chance to disarm your opponent and criticals doing twice the base damage).

That's about it. All the rest is a work for 3D modellers and animators who have to present this in some spectacular form that will attract general public. Beside that, some means for it to be streamed over the internet are needed (twitch tv?).

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Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2014-05-08 01:11:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Ray Kyonhe
4) Insignias.

New tab in the character's info window should be created, which will list all the duels he or she have participated in, showing the name of opponent, duel type (like, to the death/to severe injuries/to light injuries/for the wealth etc), the method of dispute's resolving and the winner. There could even be some unique custom scars (or better still, some unique ritual tattoos) which only winners of sword duels to death/severe injuries can "wear" :)

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Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2014-05-08 01:13:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Ray Kyonhe
5) A work to do.

So, if somebody is intrested in the topic, there are a couple of possible problems waiting to be brainstormed:

  • a) Should we leave the sword's battle combat system at its prestine, original form and let the fate to judge the winner, or may be we should add some stat system and set of implants/equipment to it to make it more entertaining of sort?
    • The possible negative outcome of chosing so will be emerging of bunch of dueling guru with perfect and imbalanced stats builds no one in their right mind would want to try to defeat. As I see this the resolution process should be as less predictable as possible for someone even try to participate in something so outrageous. If outcome is almost clear from the start, no one will bother. But perhaps we could futher subdivide such duels on several "leagues", where duels to a death always take place with all stats set to equal and with standard equipment, while crippling duels can allow for some freedom in stat's distribution and implants/boosters using depending on severity of possible crippling.
    Another difficulty that arises with combat system's overcomplication is it just will take more time to implement and balance (original form doesn't need any balancing at all) from developers.
  • b) What kinds of mutilations (as an option opposed to a death duel) we should come up with?
    • What first comes to mind it is losing random skill's level (or, perhaps all its levels at once?). If we decide to use different stat system, as proposed above, than mutilation could also affect these stats. May be a 3-6 month long coma of sort, with or wihtout ability to train your skills, will do too?
  • c) What other new gameplay forms could emerge if this would find its way into the game?
    • Yes, obviously RP players of any kind will jump over the roof out of happines on aquiring this system. Aside from that, I can imagine a gladiator arena of sort or, even better, a vicious and deadly intragalatic TV-show featuring a bunch of at least one year old characters fighting duels of "rock-paper-scissors" to the death for that one man standing in the end would get some insane amount of cash - crowd founded by bloodthirsty noble audience! Watch it on twitch tv every midnight! And don't forget to bid a million or two! (Welp, those ideas will be probably rendered useless by backscene manupulations with bidding right from the start). Or may be some ritual succession duels where several candidates for CEO position in some hardcore PVP corp have to settle their claims by dueling to the death/severe injuries? Or duels to death where all the assets of a loser turn to be a trophy for the winner?
  • d) Propose some other ways for capsuleers to settle their unsettable disputes, aside from mentioned before.
    • As was stated before, they should be as little affected by lags, pings and human player's inputting abilities and as much by their abilities to judge situation swiftly and make right decisions as possible. At the same time, they should introduce participants to some unpredictable (or even better, highly fluctuating) environment and press them to make quick decisions (to prevent using some unfair technical assistance in finding the solution). Of course, they should go with the game's setting well.
  • f) Possible ways to embed this in the current lore of the game.
    • Capsuleers are depicted as highly paranoid, clinging desperately to their godly "eternal" lives freaks, AFAIR. Can such an abomination be able to risk its life in a batlle to a real, ultimate death and for what reason? Do the Chronicles tell us about such things happening in the past? Could, for example, they battle to severe mind damage just for sheer delirious amusement? Just for the fleeting taste of death they were striped of "forever"?
    Another question is if some particular capsuleer find himself in preparations for sword duel/gunfight, but lacking all the necessary theory and practical skills, is the world of New Eden offer possibilities to aquire all those knowledge in a speed up mode (like injecting all the needed memory and aquired reflexes with help of some kind of a skill book as in case of knowledges on ship steering and operating a shield?)
  • g) I'll readily accept any help with brushing out this wall of text as it's almost about as far my language knowledges extend.

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Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2014-05-08 01:14:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Ray Kyonhe
I want to ask those who are always ready to bicker about how badly designed and deadly poisonous Incarna was and therefore how it is important that WiS were proper buried under a 10m of concrete to never see the daylight again (as if they both tied inextricably like Siamese twins) to refrain from any speculations and flame igniting attempts on how pointless/dangerous such threads are here. Around 5 months ago in an interview to USGamer CCP's Fozzie stated:
Quote:
Walking in stations right now is not the priority for us. We're focused on the space game play in EVE: the core game play. It's definitely something we could return to later, but at this time we're very focused on making EVE the best space game it can be.

I will have to report such posts to moderators as offtopic.

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Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#8 - 2014-05-08 17:31:47 UTC
Very interesting idea, I haven't read everything as it's a wall of text but I like the gist of what I've read so far.

I like the idea of an all out duel to the death, or even via some sort of proxy, the logical extension to this of course is that two alliance leaders may duel to the death over territory when the cost of fighting for it with lots of ships seems pointless or expensive.

Alliances might as well have a champion to settle things.

I'll read the rest of your posts, but in the main I like it.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Srensis
Orange Powers
The Chicken Coop
#9 - 2014-05-08 20:30:36 UTC
Glad to see I can still come to the "Features & Ideas Discussion" of the eve-o forums if I need a good laugh.
Jasmine Assasin
The Holy Rollers
#10 - 2014-05-08 22:26:20 UTC
Is kk like ok? wut

I stopped reading when you put kk instead of m or millions TBH. Sounds like a neat idea in theory but the sheer amount of work to implement it makes it ridiculous.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#11 - 2014-05-08 22:51:19 UTC
Jasmine Assasin wrote:
Is kk like ok? wut

I stopped reading when you put kk instead of m or millions TBH. Sounds like a neat idea in theory but the sheer amount of work to implement it makes it ridiculous.


I've seen a lot of ridiculous things happen in eve in my time.

Some of them deliberate...

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2014-05-09 01:40:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Ray Kyonhe
Little Dragon Khamez, first of all, thank you for your time.

Little Dragon Khamez wrote:

I like the idea of an all out duel to the death, or even via some sort of proxy, the logical extension to this of course is that two alliance leaders may duel to the death over territory when the cost of fighting for it with lots of ships seems pointless or expensive.

This is a very intresting point, I overlooked such an option completely. I'll add it in right away.

But there is more to it now. The new contract type described in my proposal able to do much more than I presumed initially, it seems. I started my introduction by mentioning ingame gambling system as a separate feature. What has become clear to me now is that system isn't needed anymore as mechanics being introduced by this new contract type able to serve needs of gambling minigames too.

Basically what we are looking at here is a formalized wager of sort (I hope I use the right word for it). You and I can lay a wager betting money VS money, or money VS property, or life VS property, etc, and choose any means or conditions to resolve it. Like one of us winning the game of cards, or sword duel minigame, or will be able to correctly guess how much PLEX will cost at the end of the week - it really doesn't matter, this new contract type will be able to serve all these needs.

One could create an open wager contract inviting any capsulleer to lay a wager on the next PvP tournament winner and it would show up like any other contract in corresponding UI window. So duel arrangement or poker session being prepared is just a wager, from this point of view. More to it, any minigame that will be introduced in future that involves placing bids will be easly incorporable in this framework. In fact, we don't even need WiS to start include this in the game as all that minigames these WiS will probably bring with itself (sword duels, gambling, chess, pool, whatever it will be) can be added in later like plug-ins to a browser. We could currently be safe with some rudimentary wages involving some tipical ingame events - tournament winners, claim in a specific region changing hands, fluctuation of prices.

This system has a potential of creating huge player driven ingame totalizator with game mechanics guarding and enforcing process of wage resolution. As duelling will be only a means of wage resolution I should probably start to think how to rephrase all my proposal to reflect this change of perspective.

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Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2014-05-09 01:46:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Ray Kyonhe
Jasmine Assasin wrote:
Is kk like ok?

I don't quite remember where I picked it, but it means "million". I've accustomed to use it like that.

Jasmine Assasin wrote:

but the sheer amount of work to implement it makes it ridiculous.

Which particular part of it? This new contract mechanics have a potential to greatly enrich gameplay regardless of WiS arriving or not in foreseeable future by introducing player defined wages, so it could be worth of all the work. As for dueling and gambling minigames - I don't think those will take too much effort as all the algorithms used here are well known and pretty simple, so they mostly should take efforts from modellers and animators.

Srensis wrote:
Glad to see I can still come to the "Features & Ideas Discussion" of the eve-o forums if I need a good laugh.

You could at least share the joke with others.

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