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25% dps drop for Gecko in Kronos

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James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#101 - 2014-05-08 20:39:56 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
An item does not have to be changed in order to be nerfed.

yes it does; that's the entire point.

No it doesn't and restricting the definition of nerf in this way is unhelpful.

i'm not restricting the definition.

My definition:
Nerf - A change made to a game that reduces the effectiveness or desirability of something in the game.
Your definition:
A change made to something in a game that reduces the effectiveness or desirability of that something.

Yours is more restrictive. So yes, you are restricting it.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#102 - 2014-05-08 20:41:33 UTC
Tippia by your logic all drones besides the Gecko are getting a buff due to their stats being increased in compensation for the changes to Drone Interfacing.
Which is blatantly false.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#103 - 2014-05-08 20:43:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Tippia by your logic all drones besides the Gecko are getting a buff due to their stats being increased in compensation for the changes to Drone Interfacing.
Which is blatantly false.
No, it is pretty much exactly what is happening.
The Gecko got the exact same increase, by the way — it just got it before all other drones.
Dave Stark
#104 - 2014-05-08 20:43:33 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
An item does not have to be changed in order to be nerfed.

yes it does; that's the entire point.

No it doesn't and restricting the definition of nerf in this way is unhelpful.

i'm not restricting the definition.

My definition:
Nerf - A change made to a game that reduces the effectiveness or desirability of something in the game.
Your definition:
A change made to something in a game that reduces the effectiveness or desirability of that something.

Yours is more restrictive. So yes, you are restricting it.

making up your own definitions for words doesn't give you credibility, it removes it.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#105 - 2014-05-08 20:44:27 UTC
Tippia wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Tippia by your logic all drones besides the Gecko are getting a buff due to their stats being increased in compensation for the changes to Drone Interfacing.
Which is blatantly false.
No, it is pretty much exactly what is happening.
The Gecko got the exact same increase — it just got it before all other drones.

The Gecko should not have been released pre-Kronos with post-Kronos stats.
It should have had its damage on delivery pre-nerfed and then adjusted in Kronos along with every other drone.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#106 - 2014-05-08 20:45:13 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
making up your own definitions for words doesn't give you credibility, it removes it.

So you have no credibility then. Glad we cleared that up.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#107 - 2014-05-08 20:46:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
The Gecko should not have been released pre-Kronos with post-Kronos stats.
That's lazy devs for you (assuming we accept that “should”, which is debatable).

Regardless, it still got its buff, same as the rest, and it still isn't being nerfed — it is just part of the general drone class that gets affected by the DI nerf, same as all other (non-capital) drones.
Dave Stark
#108 - 2014-05-08 20:46:28 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
making up your own definitions for words doesn't give you credibility, it removes it.

So you have no credibility then. Glad we cleared that up.

good job my credibility has no bearing on facts, they exist regardless of my credibility.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#109 - 2014-05-08 20:46:52 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Dave Stark wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
making up your own definitions for words doesn't give you credibility, it removes it.

So you have no credibility then. Glad we cleared that up.

good job my credibility has no bearing on facts, they exist regardless of my credibility.

Your "fact" is something you've never supported beyond "this is true because I said so."
If this is some well-established definition, then whose is it and where did it come from?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#110 - 2014-05-08 20:47:15 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Quote:
Eliminating the controlled burst skill would be a nerf to Lasers and to a lesser degree hybrid weapons, or so I would reason, but I take it you would disagree?
It would be a nerf to cap-based turrets as a class just like the DI nerf is a nerf to drones as a class. It would not be a nerf to Megapulse Lasers just like how the DI nerf is not a nerf to Geckos — it's a nerf to DI.
A nerf to lasers IS a nerf to Megapulse II so I guess I'm still missing you there.

But I think I understand where the issue lies. Personally, I would consider the analysis of a single element without consideration of any contributing or detracting factors to be entirely useless. Thus looking at the base stats of any item in isolation would be equally useless. That being the case, the fact that the gecko's base stats didn't change isn't relevant. what is relevant is the cumulative effect on that drone and the effects on it's peers.

When making that comparison there is a clear difference. Hence the conclusion of a nerf. While I understand your position, as stated before it seems like a rather useless metric and a poor basis for comparison, and as such I will have to agree to disagree.
Dominus Tempus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#111 - 2014-05-08 20:48:31 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
making up your own definitions for words doesn't give you credibility, it removes it.

So you have no credibility then. Glad we cleared that up.

good job my credibility has no bearing on facts, they exist regardless of my credibility.

Your "fact" is something you've never supported beyond "this is true because I said so."
If this is some well-established definition, then whose is it and where did it come from?

Pulled straight from his ass, I imagine.
Pubbie Spy
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#112 - 2014-05-08 20:50:50 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
remind me what changes are being done to the gecko?

It's losing 50% of the drone interface bonus June 3.
But you're right, I must be imagining that it could possible have an effect...


Good god this is dumb.

Who in their right mind thought that the heavy drone newly that is literally better than a fighter and was introduced literally weeks before a drone rebalance patch is going to stay that overpowered relative to everything else?

What did you smoke and where can I get some?
Dave Stark
#113 - 2014-05-08 20:51:20 UTC
Dominus Tempus wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
making up your own definitions for words doesn't give you credibility, it removes it.

So you have no credibility then. Glad we cleared that up.

good job my credibility has no bearing on facts, they exist regardless of my credibility.

Your "fact" is something you've never supported beyond "this is true because I said so."
If this is some well-established definition, then whose is it and where did it come from?

Pulled straight from his ass, I imagine.

still a more accurate source than the one cited for the gecko's nerf since it isn't being changed, and all.
Josef Djugashvilis
#114 - 2014-05-08 20:53:40 UTC
Pubbie Spy wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
remind me what changes are being done to the gecko?

It's losing 50% of the drone interface bonus June 3.
But you're right, I must be imagining that it could possible have an effect...


Good god this is dumb.

Who in their right mind thought that the heavy drone newly that is literally better than a fighter and was introduced literally weeks before a drone rebalance patch is going to stay that overpowered relative to everything else?

What did you smoke and where can I get some?


Sorry, it is illegal to sell smokes to under 16s. Smile

This is not a signature.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#115 - 2014-05-08 20:57:45 UTC
Pubbie Spy wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
remind me what changes are being done to the gecko?

It's losing 50% of the drone interface bonus June 3.
But you're right, I must be imagining that it could possible have an effect...


Good god this is dumb.

Who in their right mind thought that the heavy drone newly that is literally better than a fighter and was introduced literally weeks before a drone rebalance patch is going to stay that overpowered relative to everything else?

What did you smoke and where can I get some?

I didn't think it was overpowered.
50 mbps bandwidth seemed to be a pretty good balancing factor.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#116 - 2014-05-08 21:36:04 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
still a more accurate source than the one cited for the gecko's nerf since it isn't being changed, and all.
I am curious though, where is your definition of nerf stated and by what authority is it deemed official? Wouldn't any claim to legitimacy in your argument need to not only prove your definition correct, but also explicitly deny any alternate definition including the definition stated by James?

That seems a tall order.
Octoven
Stellar Production
#117 - 2014-05-08 21:47:36 UTC
Quote:
We will be minimizing this problem by reducing the bonus from the Drone Interfacing skill to 10% per level, and building the extra damage into the base stats of the drones. That means that on average, all drones will be gaining about 33% more base damage and a character with Drone Interfacing trained to level 5 will see their damage remain constant (ignoring for a moment all the other drone changes being made in this release)


Skill really doesn't matter at this point, all they did was shift the bonus from being purely skills to being skills and drones. ALL drones will be gaining 33% more damage. The Gecko will not since it has already been modified. This does not nerf the Gecko in anyway, it just buffs already existing drones. Yes, there will not be a larger gap between the two but that in no way constitutes a nerf. If you only use the Gecko all the time every time, you will still be getting the same damage, they same HP, and performance as you are now, that is not changing in any way. The only thing this change is affecting is other drones and thus you will get buffs to help be more competitive with the Gecko.

To say that this effectively kills the Gecko's usage is a bit shortsighted if you ask me. The Gecko is getting no loss in DPS, it just appears that way if you are using other heavies because the gap is smaller.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#118 - 2014-05-08 21:51:24 UTC
Octoven wrote:
Quote:
We will be minimizing this problem by reducing the bonus from the Drone Interfacing skill to 10% per level, and building the extra damage into the base stats of the drones. That means that on average, all drones will be gaining about 33% more base damage and a character with Drone Interfacing trained to level 5 will see their damage remain constant (ignoring for a moment all the other drone changes being made in this release)


Skill really doesn't matter at this point, all they did was shift the bonus from being purely skills to being skills and drones. ALL drones will be gaining 33% more damage. The Gecko will not since it has already been modified. This does not nerf the Gecko in anyway, it just buffs already existing drones. Yes, there will not be a larger gap between the two but that in no way constitutes a nerf. If you only use the Gecko all the time every time, you will still be getting the same damage, they same HP, and performance as you are now, that is not changing in any way. The only thing this change is affecting is other drones and thus you will get buffs to help be more competitive with the Gecko.

To say that this effectively kills the Gecko's usage is a bit shortsighted if you ask me. The Gecko is getting no loss in DPS, it just appears that way if you are using other heavies because the gap is smaller.

Uh no.
Other drones aren't gaining damage (assuming DI 5). The Gecko is losing damage.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#119 - 2014-05-08 21:51:41 UTC
Octoven wrote:
Quote:
We will be minimizing this problem by reducing the bonus from the Drone Interfacing skill to 10% per level, and building the extra damage into the base stats of the drones. That means that on average, all drones will be gaining about 33% more base damage and a character with Drone Interfacing trained to level 5 will see their damage remain constant (ignoring for a moment all the other drone changes being made in this release)


Skill really doesn't matter at this point, all they did was shift the bonus from being purely skills to being skills and drones. ALL drones will be gaining 33% more damage. The Gecko will not since it has already been modified. This does not nerf the Gecko in anyway, it just buffs already existing drones. Yes, there will not be a larger gap between the two but that in no way constitutes a nerf. If you only use the Gecko all the time every time, you will still be getting the same damage, they same HP, and performance as you are now, that is not changing in any way. The only thing this change is affecting is other drones and thus you will get buffs to help be more competitive with the Gecko.

To say that this effectively kills the Gecko's usage is a bit shortsighted if you ask me. The Gecko is getting no loss in DPS, it just appears that way if you are using other heavies because the gap is smaller.

No, this is incorrect. If you put a gecko in a ship with a particular fit today, it will do more damage than the same ship and fit after the changes.

It is actually the heavies which will not be changing at max skills (+/- changes involving getting the drones properly in line with each other). The Gecko is coming down to meet them.
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#120 - 2014-05-08 21:52:41 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

The Gecko should not have been released pre-Kronos with post-Kronos stats.
It should have had its damage on delivery pre-nerfed and then adjusted in Kronos along with every other drone.

Why?