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A possible buff to Tech 2 BPOs

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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#21 - 2014-05-04 04:52:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Bad Bobby
Bad Bobby wrote:
MailDeadDrop wrote:
will allow T2 BPO holders to produce more items at zero risk than they do presently.
At present a T2 BPO holder that chooses to efficiently produce at zero risk to their BPO will use a single manufacturing slot in a POS array to produce their product. This will yield a 33% increase in yield (0.75 time) over a current station slot and give them control over slot availability and pricing.

With the first draft changes in place (the ones that will not be shipping, but are all we have to look at) that T2 BPO holder will copy their T2 BPO in station at basic speed, which can then be enhanced by implants (5% max), teams (10% max) and whatever fundamental copy time improvement CCP leave in (6.25% now, likely to be nothing at best on release). All of these bonuses come with a bundle of additional costs and problems.

I'm not sure how the maths actually shakes out on the first draft changes. I don't want to get too much into it, as it's rather pointless, but if it works like this:

0.95 x 0.90 x 0.9375 = 0.8015

Then it's a significant nerf when compared to this:

0.75 = 0.75

EDIT:

I think it works more like this:

0.75 (skill) x 0.95 (best implant) x 0.90 (best team) = 0.64125

0.80 (skill) x 0.96 (best implant) x 0.75 (POS array) = 0.576
Big Lynx
#22 - 2014-05-07 21:15:18 UTC
I like the changes.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#23 - 2014-05-08 16:35:10 UTC
Just an FYI, T2 BPOs are going to die. A lot. True story.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#24 - 2014-05-08 17:00:03 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Just an FYI, T2 BPOs are going to die. A lot. True story.

Nothing new there then.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#25 - 2014-05-08 18:25:38 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Just an FYI, T2 BPOs are going to die. A lot. True story.
Nothing new there then.
:p The new part is that CCP themselves have now stated this. Essentially they think that the prices for T2 BPOs are artificially inflated as they are more collectibles than anything else, and the actual profit should be pushed more into the invention side. They did suggest that there would likely be a full removal at some point, but no solid info on when. The amount of sad from the T2 BPO owners in the industry panel was high.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
350125GO
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2014-05-08 18:43:53 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
The new part is that CCP themselves have now stated this. Essentially they think that the prices for T2 BPOs are artificially inflated as they are more collectibles than anything else, and the actual profit should be pushed more into the invention side. They did suggest that there would likely be a full removal at some point, but no solid info on when. The amount of sad from the T2 BPO owners in the industry panel was high.


What you say in this is contradictory and not based on anything that's verified. Why would CCP care if T2 BPOs are overvalued if they don't have a major impact on the economy. If that's the case they're more of an isk sink than anything and the game needs those to fight inflation. What one Dev said is there are a select number of T2 ships that are underutilized by players and that those markets are somewhat controlled by the T2 BPO owners, but aside from that the BPOs don't really impact the economy or profitability.

One Dev supposedly stated that they "would eventually lose all value" but it was somewhat vague and seemed more in relation to one player's whinging than any actual upcoming changes.

Regardless, they're not going anywhere in the near future, and they're not stomping out competition. I really wish the T2 BPOs are unfair crowd would speak with something other than emotion to try to prove their point.

The person that owns a BPO isn't your biggest competitor since there's likely 30 other manufacturers placing orders on the market. Call it what it is. People complain about T2 BPOs because they think it's unfair that someone can have a slightly higher profit margin than they can.

If someone wants to spend 29B on a missile blueprint and they have the money to do it, let them. It's not going to crash the profitability of the missile market.

You're young, you'll adjust. I'm old, I'll get used to it.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#27 - 2014-05-08 19:42:47 UTC
350125GO wrote:
they're more of an isk sink than anything
No, T2 BPOs are not an isk sink in the sense you mean. The isk just passes from player to player and doesn't get removed from the game.

350125GO wrote:
and the game needs those to fight inflation.
Yes, but fortunately we have enough isk sinks already that inflation isn't a problem. It also appears that CCP aren't shy of adding more.

350125GO wrote:
What one Dev said is
It must be said that the Devs have yet to prove themselves to be subject matter experts on these things.

350125GO wrote:
I really wish the T2 BPOs are unfair crowd would speak with something other than emotion to try to prove their point.
The T2 BPO supporting crowd are just as guilty of terrible posting.

I have to agree with you though that there is little good debate to be found on the subject of T2 BPOs. Most of what we do have has the air of monkeys throwing feces at eachother.

The comments at fanfest are no indication that anything will happen. Just like anything else that is said at fanfest, only some of it will ever see the light of day. Moreso, these comments were vague, non-committal and without any reference to any timescale whatsoever.

Personally, I'd like to see both invention and T2 BPOs iterated upon. I don't feel either should be removed, but I feel both could and should be far better than they are. Of the two, I think invention is the worse feature with one of it's few merits being that it made T2 BPOs work better.
Big Lynx
#28 - 2014-05-08 20:11:49 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Just an FYI, T2 BPOs are going to die. A lot. True story.


And eve is dying. Lucas a bit jelly?
Mr LaboratoryRat
Confederation of DuckTape Lovers
#29 - 2014-05-08 20:37:54 UTC
About the T2 removal subject.... what if someone helds a 10 yr, eve life long collection of T2 bpo's. Valued a tens of trils... would that be fair?

And dont start with the "lottery argument" as most T2 bpo's have swapped ownership by now.
Money Makin Mitch
Paid in Full
#30 - 2014-05-09 04:19:01 UTC
Mr LaboratoryRat wrote:
About the T2 removal subject.... what if someone helds a 10 yr, eve life long collection of T2 bpo's. Valued a tens of trils... would that be fair?

And dont start with the "lottery argument" as most T2 bpo's have swapped ownership by now.

fair's got nothing to do with it Twisted
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
Nornir Empire
#31 - 2014-05-09 04:26:36 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
The amount of sad from the T2 BPO owners in the industry panel was high.


Are you referring to this person?

http://themittani.com/news/fanfest-industry-panel-discussion

Quote:
A player told the panel that he had no idea about the upcoming changes when he paid for a particular T2 BPO for 90 billion isk. With the new ME changes, the BPO's value would be 18 billion isk less. In addition, because of the cost of this BPO, it would take him years to pay for it with the profit from it.


Because that sounds like another attempt to make people sell their T2 BPOs cheap by spreading panic, it also makes no sense.

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Nanny State
Doomheim
#32 - 2014-05-09 04:41:38 UTC
350125GO wrote:


Regardless, they're not going anywhere in the near future, and they're not stomping out competition. I really wish the T2 BPOs are unfair crowd would speak with something other than emotion to try to prove their point.

The person that owns a BPO isn't your biggest competitor since there's likely 30 other manufacturers placing orders on the market. Call it what it is. People complain about T2 BPOs because they think it's unfair that someone can have a slightly higher profit margin than they can.


says the t2 bpo owner, it's hilarious how entitled you are. i suggest you use an alt to freighter your stuff from now on
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#33 - 2014-05-09 05:56:18 UTC
Mr LaboratoryRat wrote:
About the T2 removal subject.... what if someone helds a 10 yr, eve life long collection of T2 bpo's. Valued a tens of trils... would that be fair?

I have yet to see a good argument for removing T2 BPOs. To me, the idea of removing something that almost works rather than correcting it's failings seems like idiocy.

In my mind all we need to resolve the actual issues are:

1. A simple means to distribute new, missing or destroyed T2 BPOs to active players through the invention mechanic, while keeping them strictly limited in number.

2. A continuation of the balancing effort so that any T2 products that are really unpopular get fixed. This leading to an increase in use and market volume such that their price gets set by invention rather than T2 BPOs.

3. An iteration on invention mechanics to make them less bad.

4. A willingness to politely ignore the complaints of people who are simply bad at the game and are choosing to blame anything other than themselves for their failings.

As far as I can gather, the only one that isn't already on the table is #1. So I would like to see that added to the agenda for the upcomming invention iteration.
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#34 - 2014-05-09 13:36:41 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
1. A simple means to distribute new, missing or destroyed T2 BPOs to active players through the invention mechanic, while keeping them strictly limited in number.

Fixing T2 production issues by making *more* T2 BPOs is going to be a really hard sell.

MDD
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#35 - 2014-05-09 14:09:45 UTC
MailDeadDrop wrote:
Bad Bobby wrote:
1. A simple means to distribute new, missing or destroyed T2 BPOs to active players through the invention mechanic, while keeping them strictly limited in number.

Fixing T2 production issues by making *more* T2 BPOs is going to be a really hard sell.

MDD

Feel free to tell me what those T2 production issues are.
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#36 - 2014-05-09 15:52:22 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
MailDeadDrop wrote:
Bad Bobby wrote:
1. A simple means to distribute new, missing or destroyed T2 BPOs to active players through the invention mechanic, while keeping them strictly limited in number.

Fixing T2 production issues by making *more* T2 BPOs is going to be a really hard sell.

Feel free to tell me what those T2 production issues are.

I didn't mean to imply *I* thought there were problems. I thought that's what you were proposing to fix. So, what "actual issue" are you proposing to fix with that change?

MDD
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#37 - 2014-05-09 16:03:57 UTC
MailDeadDrop wrote:
Bad Bobby wrote:
MailDeadDrop wrote:
Bad Bobby wrote:
1. A simple means to distribute new, missing or destroyed T2 BPOs to active players through the invention mechanic, while keeping them strictly limited in number.

Fixing T2 production issues by making *more* T2 BPOs is going to be a really hard sell.

Feel free to tell me what those T2 production issues are.

I didn't mean to imply *I* thought there were problems. I thought that's what you were proposing to fix. So, what "actual issue" are you proposing to fix with that change?

MDD

For each of those measures:

1. That the T2 BPO feature has lacked ongoing support from CCP and needs some work.

2. That some T2 stuff is bad.

3. That invention is bad.

4. That people complain a lot, because they are bad.

I must admit, that my measure for #4 isn't as comprehensive as I would like.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#38 - 2014-05-09 17:01:38 UTC
350125GO wrote:
I really wish the T2 BPOs are unfair crowd would speak with something other than emotion to try to prove their point.
lol, that's what you think I am? Not even slightly. I don;t much care wat you choose to spend your isk on. I don't think T2 BPOs should exist as a functional object anymore, sure, but I'm in no way a "they are unfair" kind of player.

Mr LaboratoryRat wrote:
About the T2 removal subject.... what if someone helds a 10 yr, eve life long collection of T2 bpo's. Valued a tens of trils... would that be fair?

And dont start with the "lottery argument" as most T2 bpo's have swapped ownership by now.
Valued by who? The value placed on T2 BPOs is not reflective of their true market value anyway, so if their marketable value decreases, their player driven price should be unaffected, surely.

The fact is though that as they iterate through invention, T2 BPOs will be phased out of use, so their actual value, as in the value of them as a usable item, will decrease. Whether or not that affects their collectors value is up to player demand, not based on how long it will take to turn a profit. They certainly shouldn't be specifically kept as a better way to manufacture T2 items just because you choose to value them at a ridiculously high value.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Big Lynx
#39 - 2014-05-10 07:22:13 UTC
Lucas, i like you. You have no idea what you are talking about. However, I like your posts.
Agata Matahari
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2014-05-10 09:26:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Agata Matahari
Ok. I just watched the Industrial Panel from Fanfest. One player payed 90bill for an Acolyte II BPO. Everyone who knows a bit about T2 BPO sell prices knows that this is near a scam. Obv one sold this print to the poor fella who manipulated market before. The poor fella cried about his loss on isk and is scared about a removal. CCP Fozzie gives him hope concerning the patch that T2 BPOs will get a nice benefit over the BPCs with negative ME and CCP Greyscale did not say ANY word of removal or nerf. He only lost some words to the rageing player to sooth him.
All in all T2 bpos will get better. It's about time cause there is a plenty of worthless T2 bpos. Every single player has the tools in hand for making isk and purchase a Tech2 bpo. Those who are not able to are those who are not trying to discuss objectively and rather show envy and rage and crying for removal. so ridiculous kindergarden.
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