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25% dps drop for Gecko in Kronos

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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#81 - 2014-05-08 20:21:18 UTC
Tippia wrote:
No. I'm arguing that you got your facts wrong. The Gecko is not getting nerfed — it can't, since it is not being changed in any way whatsoever.

The indisputable fact is that with the release of Kronos, the Gecko will do less damage than players are currently experiencing. It's a valid point to bring up because many players are unaware of the drone changes (since they were buried in a dev blog as opposed to being highlighted as a change in features and ideas), and an equal number are probably operating under the impression that the Gecko was going to get buffed along with the other drones. Fozzie has clarified, I've linked that - and I've indicated what the respective drop from current levels will be (25% overall, 6.3% on bonused hulls).

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2014-05-08 20:21:41 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
So a nerf or buff is not related to performance changes?
Only relative to the item's previous stats, and those stats are pretty much universally going up, except in the case of the Gecko, where they stay the same since they arrive pre-buffed and nothing changes.

So: no change — no nerf.
This is where I am confused, for any pilot with drone interfacing trained the output of the gecko is going down. This is a change, but for some reason, since the change isn't on the base stats of the item itself it doesn't count as a nerf? I can genuinely say that this reasoning doesn't make sense to me. I would expect that if any series of interactions is changed in a way to benefit or harm a single entity, regardless of whether the entity itself was changed, would count as a buff or nerf.

IE: Eliminating the controlled burst skill would be a nerf to Lasers and to a lesser degree hybrid weapons, or so I would reason, but I take it you would disagree?
Dave Stark
#83 - 2014-05-08 20:22:43 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
So a nerf or buff is not related to performance changes?
Only relative to the item's previous stats, and those stats are pretty much universally going up, except in the case of the Gecko, where they stay the same since they arrive pre-buffed and nothing changes.

So: no change — no nerf.
This is where I am confused, for any pilot with drone interfacing trained the output of the gecko is going down. This is a change, but for some reason, since the change isn't on the base stats of the item itself it doesn't count as a nerf? I can genuinely say that this reasoning doesn't make sense to me. I would expect that if any series of interactions is changed in a way to benefit or harm a single entity, regardless of whether the entity itself was changed, would count as a buff or nerf.

IE: Eliminating the controlled burst skill would be a nerf to Lasers and to a lesser degree hybrid weapons, or so I would reason, but I take it you would disagree?


because it's drone interfacing that's being nerfed, not the gecko.
sure the result is the gecko doing less damage - but that's not because the gecko is getting nerfed; drone interfacing is.
Dominus Tempus
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#84 - 2014-05-08 20:25:24 UTC
Indirect or not, anything that has a negative effect on something's potential is a nerf. You don't get to take your own interpretations of the word's meaning and stamp it as fact. Half of you are just vultures that scan through GD occasionally waiting for an excuse to post derogatory remarks or argue for the sake of arguing rather than having anything even remotely resembling an intellectual debate or discussion.

This is worse than semantics.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#85 - 2014-05-08 20:25:36 UTC
I previously championed that line of argument when heavy missiles were nerfed and people were complaining that it was a Tengu nerf.
I distinctly remember saying, often, that it wasn't a nerf because it was heavy missiles that were getting changed, not the Tengu itself.

It's as much pedantry now as it was then. Now it wasn't really a nerf because HAMs were buffed rather significantly at the same time, but their point still stands. If CCP were to reduce the volley damage of large artillery it would be a nerf to the Tornado, despite no stats changing on the ship.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Dave Stark
#86 - 2014-05-08 20:27:08 UTC
Dominus Tempus wrote:
You don't get to take your own interpretations of the word's meaning and stamp it as fact.

exactly, that's why we're correcting them.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#87 - 2014-05-08 20:27:58 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
So a nerf or buff is not related to performance changes?
Only relative to the item's previous stats, and those stats are pretty much universally going up, except in the case of the Gecko, where they stay the same since they arrive pre-buffed and nothing changes.

So: no change — no nerf.
This is where I am confused, for any pilot with drone interfacing trained the output of the gecko is going down. This is a change, but for some reason, since the change isn't on the base stats of the item itself it doesn't count as a nerf? I can genuinely say that this reasoning doesn't make sense to me. I would expect that if any series of interactions is changed in a way to benefit or harm a single entity, regardless of whether the entity itself was changed, would count as a buff or nerf.

IE: Eliminating the controlled burst skill would be a nerf to Lasers and to a lesser degree hybrid weapons, or so I would reason, but I take it you would disagree?


because it's drone interfacing that's being nerfed, not the gecko.
sure the result is the gecko doing less damage - but that's not because the gecko is getting nerfed; drone interfacing is.

At the same time the gecko is the only drone not being compensated. The buff of everything comparable apparently does not equate to a single items nerf to you though, despite having complete effective equivalency. That's what I don't get. That singular cumulative changes somehow don't qualify as nerf or buff because one subset of info wasn't changed.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#88 - 2014-05-08 20:29:10 UTC
Great. Now that we've spent 5 pages "agreeing to disagree" on terminology, I'm going to conclude my participation by simply stating that the rationale for bringing this up was to make people aware of the impact Kronos would have on the Gecko. If someone finds this useful - great. If not, I'm sure there are other threads to peruse...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#89 - 2014-05-08 20:29:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Ramona McCandless
Kronos not released

Therefore nothing has happened

End of transmission

Captain's Log supplimental:

IF this change occurs, it will not effect people who do not possess the skill

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Dave Stark
#90 - 2014-05-08 20:29:31 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
At the same time the gecko is the only drone not being compensated.

the gecko got compensated a month before the other drones.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#91 - 2014-05-08 20:30:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
The indisputable fact is that with the release of Kronos, the Gecko will
…have the exact same stats it has today since it comes pre-buffed to match the Kronos drone balance. It does not change. It is not getting nerfed. This is indeed the indisputable fact.

Your entire problem is that you confuse a support skill to be an aspect of the drone. It is not. It is its own separate thing. Drone Interfacing is being nerfed. Geckos remain the same — they are getting neither buffed nor nerfed.

Tyberius Franklin wrote:
This is where I am confused, for any pilot with drone interfacing trained the output of the gecko is going down.
Not quite. For any pilot with Drone Interfacing trained, the bonus from Drone Interfacing is going down. Almost all drones are getting buffed, but the Gecko is not because it was introduced pre-buffed to match the new balance. The Gecko remains the same — neither buffed nor nerfed — and DI is giving it, and every other drone in the game, a smaller bonus than before (well… every other non-capital drone at least).

Quote:
Eliminating the controlled burst skill would be a nerf to Lasers and to a lesser degree hybrid weapons, or so I would reason, but I take it you would disagree?
It would be a nerf to cap-based turrets as a class just like the DI nerf is a nerf to drones as a class. It would not be a nerf to Megapulse Lasers just like how the DI nerf is not a nerf to Geckos — it's a nerf to DI.

Quote:
At the same time the gecko is the only drone not being compensated.
It was compensated before it was even implemented.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#92 - 2014-05-08 20:32:53 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Tippia wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
The indisputable fact is that with the release of Kronos, the Gecko will
…have the exact same stats it has today since it comes pre-buffed to match the Kronos drone balance. It does not change. It is not getting nerfed. This is indeed the indisputable fact.

You're using the wrong definition of the word nerf.
An item does not have to be changed in order to be nerfed. There merely has to be some change made somewhere in the game that reduces its effectiveness or desirability. Indisputably, it's losing 25% DPS. Indisputably, that reduces both its effectiveness and desirability. Indisputably, that makes it a nerf. Saying it's not a nerf because the stats of the drone itself were not changed is pedantry and nothing else.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Josef Djugashvilis
#93 - 2014-05-08 20:33:14 UTC
I don't care if, when Kronos is released Gecko drones do less damage because Fozzie gets his hair cut.

Less damage is not good :(

Yup, I use drones a lot.

This is not a signature.
Dominus Tempus
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#94 - 2014-05-08 20:33:20 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
The indisputable fact is that with the release of Kronos, the Gecko will
…have the exact same stats it has today since it comes pre-buffed to match the Kronos drone balance. It does not change. It is not getting nerfed. This is indeed the indisputable fact.

Your entire problem is that you confuse a support skill to be an aspect of the drone. It is not. It is its own separate thing. Drone Interfacing is being nerfed. Geckos remain the same — they are getting neither buffed nor nerfed.

Tyberius Franklin wrote:
This is where I am confused, for any pilot with drone interfacing trained the output of the gecko is going down.
Not quite. For any pilot with Drone Interfacing trained, the bonus from Drone Interfacing is going down. Almost all drones are getting buffed, but the Gecko is not because it was introduced pre-buffed to match the new balance. The Gecko remains the same — neither buffed nor nerfed — and DI is giving it, and every other drone in the game, a smaller bonus than before (well… every other non-capital drone at least).

Quote:
Eliminating the controlled burst skill would be a nerf to Lasers and to a lesser degree hybrid weapons, or so I would reason, but I take it you would disagree?
It would be a nerf to cap-based turrets as a class just like the DI nerf is a nerf to drones as a class. It would not be a nerf to Megapulse Lasers just like how the DI nerf is not a nerf to Geckos — it's a nerf to DI.

Quote:
At the same time the gecko is the only drone not being compensated.
It was compensated before it was even implemented.

Nice rant post, but that still leaves the fact that an indirect change that affects the effectiveness of a Gecko is still a nerf.
Dave Stark
#95 - 2014-05-08 20:33:56 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
An item does not have to be changed in order to be nerfed.

yes it does; that's the entire point.
Dominus Tempus
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#96 - 2014-05-08 20:35:44 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
An item does not have to be changed in order to be nerfed.

yes it does; that's the entire point.

Actually, it does not. There's the debate, it's not even about the thread topic anymore.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#97 - 2014-05-08 20:35:49 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
An item does not have to be changed in order to be nerfed.

yes it does; that's the entire point.

No it doesn't and restricting the definition of nerf in this way is unhelpful.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Dave Stark
#98 - 2014-05-08 20:37:25 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
An item does not have to be changed in order to be nerfed.

yes it does; that's the entire point.

No it doesn't and restricting the definition of nerf in this way is unhelpful.

i'm not restricting the definition.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2014-05-08 20:39:01 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
... pedantry and nothing else.

in other words: Tippia's style

nothing new actually
except that is't Dave Stark who does it What?

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#100 - 2014-05-08 20:39:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
An item does not have to be changed in order to be nerfed.
Sure it does. If nothing changes, nothing changes, so there is no nerf or buff.

Again, the nerf here is to drone interfacing, and it affects drones as a class. The indirect nerf here is to all drones, since the change is something that applies to… (drumroll)… all drones.

Dominus Tempus wrote:
Nice rant post, but that still leaves the fact that an indirect change that affects the effectiveness of a Gecko
…does not nerf the Gecko, specifically, but Drone Interfacing. It is a DI nerf and by extension a nerf to drones as a class, not a nerf to any individual drone.