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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Time to extend the skill queue

First post
Author
Habris
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#81 - 2014-05-05 09:31:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Habris
Mag's wrote:
I also have to say no.

This is one of the few games that allows character training offline, most other MMOs require grind to gain SP/XP. Therefore it stands to reason there would be a limit on just how long offline one would be able to train. CCP want people logging in and it was their main reason for the 24 hour limit. As well as char farming and I'm sure other unforeseen issues.

The queue's primary design, was to remove the need for 3 am alarm clock changes and the need to stay online for those short skill changes.
It wasn't ever about extending the time you could be away from the game, which some seem to be losing sight of.

Now Crest may provide us with new avenues in the future, but only time and CCP will tell. One route I would be fine with, is a limited change ability via the web, Say 10 changes per year. Rather than the queue being extended.

More Queue Queue.

Comments on the More Queue Queue blog.

Now there was talk back then that one of the reasons for the queues introduction, was due to the removal of ghost training back in 2008. But I have my doubts, although do remember posts on that subject.

This is after all, CCPs game. They decided and with justification, that the queue was going to be 24 hours. Sure there may be pilots who find themselves unable to log in, to change a skill within that 24 hour time frame. But that's neither CCPs problem, or one that should be resolved through massive increases in the queue length.

Like I said, I'm all for a limited allowance through the crest or a web based system. But I'm against changes to the queue and any ideas for introducing skills to increase it's length.


wow 2008 for ghost queue removal and 2009 for skill queue implementation. .. my memory was way off.

Well there you have it boys and girls, lots of sense and devblog's to back it up. Another veteran pilot informing you lot of the origins of the queue mechanic and why it hasnt changed. CREST is probably your only hope.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#82 - 2014-05-05 13:48:26 UTC
Habris wrote:
I do believe you have the terms designed and intended confused.

Works as designed: functions properly according to the mechanics.

Works as intended: functions properly according to the concept.

Not at all, 'intended' is a subjective term, relative to the context.

The concept that was intended, at the time, was to remove player frustration at the lack of a queue's existence, which resulted in the alarm clock skill setting.
The context that they had, was that no queue existed, so ANY change was a great potential improvement.
Don't let the desire for the perfect block the use of the good.

Logging into the game to get the books, and plug them in as needed, that is believed to be intended.
Access to the skill set is earned within the game itself.
(Is it necessary? This is a different discussion, but a much better argument can be made to support it than the queue's limit)

Now, with the player base having adapted to the queue's existence, we realize it was not enough to solve all the issues, just the loudest ones from that period.
The problem was never completely solved.

We can define, with certainty, whether this problem is solved using the same criteria as the original had for it's creation.
Player demand.

And not just vocalized or on forums, but implied demand.
This means, the feature not existing could be too often responsible for players simply leaving the game due to inconvenience.

Can't get to a PC due to repair needs, vacation, job or family issues?
Hop onto a web browser, and get satisfaction.

Satisfaction can take one of two forms, in this context:
1. I can't play right now, but someday I might return, so my character's gradual improvement feels worth my continued payment. I can grab my most interesting skill and slot it from this web page, so I am at least getting a return on my gaming investment.

2. I can't play right now, and I see from my smartphone app that my queue is expiring in three days. I know, due to circumstances, that I won't have access to an EVE client for far longer than this. But, I can log into this web browser and cancel the account.
Who knows? I might come back someday, and start it again. But, with no smartphone app to remind me my character is improving for future play, added to the burden of restarting payment itself, only those lonely emails from CCP asking me to come back will remind me now.

The more people, in my opinion, who pick option number 1, the better it is for CCP.
There are tangible benefits, as described above. The downside? Some players have the impression of possible harm, but nothing more specific that I have seen.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#83 - 2014-05-05 14:31:20 UTC
Mag's wrote:
I also have to say no.

This is one of the few games that allows character training offline, most other MMOs require grind to gain SP/XP. Therefore it stands to reason there would be a limit on just how long offline one would be able to train. CCP want people logging in and it was their main reason for the 24 hour limit. As well as char farming and I'm sure other unforeseen issues.

The queue's primary design, was to remove the need for 3 am alarm clock changes and the need to stay online for those short skill changes.
It wasn't ever about extending the time you could be away from the game, which some seem to be losing sight of.

Now Crest may provide us with new avenues in the future, but only time and CCP will tell. One route I would be fine with, is a limited change ability via the web, Say 10 changes per year. Rather than the queue being extended.

More Queue Queue.

Comments on the More Queue Queue blog.

Now there was talk back then that one of the reasons for the queues introduction, was due to the removal of ghost training back in 2008. But I have my doubts, although do remember posts on that subject.

This is after all, CCPs game. They decided and with justification, that the queue was going to be 24 hours. Sure there may be pilots who find themselves unable to log in, to change a skill within that 24 hour time frame. But that's neither CCPs problem, or one that should be resolved through massive increases in the queue length.

Like I said, I'm all for a limited allowance through the crest or a web based system. But I'm against changes to the queue and any ideas for introducing skills to increase it's length.

Thank you for the historical insight, I appreciate your attention to detail.

It may be worthwhile to consider a compromise.

Skill queue access to be exclusive to logging into the game.
Alarm clock "Next skill ONLY" setting of skills to train: Any web browser / smartphone or tablet app.

Don't let the desire for the perfect block the use of the good.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#84 - 2014-05-05 16:05:36 UTC
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay.
Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!

The Rules:
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.



I mean, come on. It is possible to disagree with someone without resorting to words that let the word filter kick in...Blink

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Titan Andronicus
Rookie Mission Tax Haven
#85 - 2014-05-05 18:30:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Titan Andronicus
Mag's wrote:
I also have to say no.

This is one of the few games that allows character training offline, most other MMOs require grind to gain SP/XP. Therefore it stands to reason there would be a limit on just how long offline one would be able to train. CCP want people logging in and it was their main reason for the 24 hour limit. As well as char farming and I'm sure other unforeseen issues.

The queue's primary design, was to remove the need for 3 am alarm clock changes and the need to stay online for those short skill changes.
It wasn't ever about extending the time you could be away from the game, which some seem to be losing sight of.

Now Crest may provide us with new avenues in the future, but only time and CCP will tell. One route I would be fine with, is a limited change ability via the web, Say 10 changes per year. Rather than the queue being extended.

More Queue Queue.

Comments on the More Queue Queue blog.

Now there was talk back then that one of the reasons for the queues introduction, was due to the removal of ghost training back in 2008. But I have my doubts, although do remember posts on that subject.

This is after all, CCPs game. They decided and with justification, that the queue was going to be 24 hours. Sure there may be pilots who find themselves unable to log in, to change a skill within that 24 hour time frame. But that's neither CCPs problem, or one that should be resolved through massive increases in the queue length.

Like I said, I'm all for a limited allowance through the crest or a web based system. But I'm against changes to the queue and any ideas for introducing skills to increase it's length.


Nikk Narrel, you beat me to it! I also appreciate this post for adding to the debate, and proving a direct link to the dev blog of the time.

I suggest everyone have a read (or re-read) of the blog because it explains the thinking of the developers. It confirms comments made by Habris that CCP's intention is for you to play this very social game. It's far from a killer argument though, more a caution against an indefinite or year long queue.

Quote:
... we did worry that if we introduced a skill queue some players might just set a queue for a year and become less active in EVE.


Quote:
A long abstinence from EVE would ruin this for us.


Quote:
...make the planning of skill training easier by using a queue, but without the risk of people queuing forever and not really being active in the game.


Just as before, I have no objection to that. EVE is a social game, as is the forum, but RL is important too. I'm sure CCP would not condone a total immersion in the game at the expense of RL responsibilities.

It is also true that there is no emerging consensus of how long an extended skill training queue would be. For example 25 hours, or increased by a percentage up to 26.4 hours, 30-days, a year, or indefinite.

It is undeniable that although the intention is for players to play socially with other players, if all they can manage is to log-in and update the skill queue then log-out, they are not playing as intended through no fault of their own. If a third-party interface for updating the skill training queue is provided then a player who is unable to play can still update their skills, but again will not be able to play with others, as intended, and again through no fault of their own. This has also been referred to as the content creation argument put forth, which at the time I did not understand (jargon).

The unsociable argument against a skill queue extension is therefore weakened if third-party tools are supported instead.

We should also remember that this was the position five years ago.

The same dev blog concludes with a look to the future, and, no offence, but it was disingenuous to overlook this:

Quote:
We are hard at work completing the skill queue and we have left room to develop the way you manage skills further. For example we could add a planning system and maybe even connect skill plans to certificates or modules.


Queuing up a skill plan for training was a suggestion made in the other thread about injecting skill books earlier than currently allowed, and I think it is good one. Such a training plan, for example to train all the skills needed to fly a racial cruiser, or to achieve the first mastery certificate of a Venture, would take longer than 24-hours, so I do not accept that this first feature was ever intended to be the final incarnation.

Based on my own interests as a new player, a 30-day queue would be fine. But I also love the idea of automatically queuing up a series of skills from mastery certs or pre-requisites, and I look forward to official comment!
Habris
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#86 - 2014-05-05 22:24:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Habris
@Nikk Narrel I like how you posted your views speculating on the context CCP had in mind, and then Mag's came in and basically provided the context for you. The queue is meant for short running skills and providing a buffer to login to and set another skill. Again, as of right now it's working as intended. The queue provides MORE than enough for players as it's functioning according to the will and desire of CCP. They don't want players to have a longer queue, they even explained why.

@Titan Andronicus Firstly thanks for recognizing that I wasn't just being an *******, that facts actually turned out to be facts and not just opinions. I do believe you have misinterpreted the future outlook and hopes from the future of the feature.

CCP circa 2009 wrote:
We are hard at work completing the skill queue and we have left room to develop the way you manage skills further. For example we could add a planning system and maybe even connect skill plans to certificates or modules.


This references CCP basically taking EvEmon and injecting it into eve. Not a skill plan that you can then set to train. It was never CCP's intention to do that, but merely provide a tool to manage their skill plan. Only reason why third party tools were even considered was because we were using them anyway guy (specifically EvEmon, EFT, and other tools I can't remember). Yes real life is important but that is the individual players responsibility, not the dev's.

A longer queue is just not going to happen. You want me to dig up my old posts whining about this very same issue? I will if you'd like. I accepted the limitations of the feature and moved on and guess what, in the 5 years since i've had little to no issues at all. The support for a skill queue beyond 24 hours just isn't there. Like Mag's I do not support it nor any skill based solution. However limited browser based skill queuing 5-10 times a year maybe the compromise you're going to get, not the subscription based limit you dream of. Sorry you can't always get what you want... I do believe there is song about that.

Edit: Also just want to point out those are only the reasons CCP will admit to in regards to the skill queue. I'm pretty sure they won't QQ over your lost SP should your training lapse. Probable chances are you won't unsub, you'll just buy another plex.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#87 - 2014-05-06 13:26:57 UTC
Habris wrote:
@Nikk Narrel I like how you posted your views speculating on the context CCP had in mind, and then Mag's came in and basically provided the context for you. The queue is meant for short running skills and providing a buffer to login to and set another skill. Again, as of right now it's working as intended. The queue provides MORE than enough for players as it's functioning according to the will and desire of CCP. They don't want players to have a longer queue, they even explained why.

....
A longer queue is just not going to happen.

...Edit: Also just want to point out those are only the reasons CCP will admit to in regards to the skill queue. I'm pretty sure they won't QQ over your lost SP should your training lapse. Probable chances are you won't unsub, you'll just buy another plex.

I already left the game once.

I came back a couple of years later, found they had installed a skill queue, and thought how nice that was.

But, and this is an important detail, I did not come back because of what EVE did do, or the emails asking me to check out EVE again, etc.
I came back because I got sick of the other games.

I recalled EVE had been interesting with potential, even if it was not enough to keep me at the time I left before.
And while other games were decaying into short term thrills at the cost of long term enjoyment, EVE had actually improved some.

But, as in life, the journey is never complete. More improvements are called for.

Betting against progress is like betting against the calendar. The future will always prove you wrong.
It's just a matter of time.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#88 - 2014-05-06 13:30:26 UTC
Doireen Kaundur wrote:
The skill queue is a peculiar mini game in EVE. What keeps players tied to Eve is that damn skill queue. Even if you dont plan on playing that day or week, you still have to log in just to adjust skills. A feature that should at least have an external way of adjusting. Hell, even allow it to be adjusted via the forum/character profiles.

What the justification for limiting the skill queue is beyond me. How does logging in to adjust it then logging out help the Eve expereince at all?

So with that, I suggest extending the skill queue or allowing players to adjust the current limited queue via an external website.

Good to see you have seen sense and biomassed yourself.
Ryan Paladin
Reckless-Endangerment
Manifesto.
#89 - 2014-05-06 13:40:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Ryan Paladin
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
FireFrenzy wrote:
Just be glad you have a skill que man, i remember…

No one cares… Well, at least no one but bitter old vets. How about this: Anyone paying ($) for their subscription should get an expanded skill queue - no questions asked. Whether those players login every day or only once a month, they're the ones actually generating the revenue for EVE.


See. You are wrong. People buy PLEX to sell on the market. In order to sell these on the market there must be people wanting to buy them. Thats where we come in; we buy them at in game market price. This thus encourages people to continually buy PLEX to sell in game. And at 20 dollars each it's at a higher price than a normal subscription. So when you take the time to understand how a market works, those of use who pay for time in game actually generate more revenue than those who pay for a normal subscription.

In short with a basically if you took time to understand how a market works you would realize you were wrong.

EDIT: Oh and more on point with the topic I couldn't care less about the skill queue extension. I have never had an issue with the current length but I have no doubt an extension would be convenient. So I really don't care.
King Fu Hostile
Shiva Furnace
#90 - 2014-05-06 13:50:08 UTC
Captain Eliiot wrote:
King Fu Hostile wrote:
Extend? No ******* way thank you very much, my skill queue finishes in 52 days, 7 hours, 56 minutes and 2 seconds and most certainly does not need to be extended at all.


I want to believe this a troll post, I really do.
Make the queue the size of eve mon ffs CCP if i wanna plan my skills for the entire year in one seating why cant I? The only logical reason a company would have such a short queue for adding skills in would have to be to keep an image of many players online, or to profit from players unable to feed their queues which is pretty low. But I guess when your CCP and hemorrhage money by abandoning 4 year old MMOs and FPS you need that upper hand.


It is a troll post obv. It does also bring up the point that the skills get very long for middle-aged and older characters, and the 24h queue becomes a non-issue.

I don't see much rational argumentation for the current 24 queue, but it's not a huge problem either. Most players log in every night, or at least several times a week anyway.

I travel regularly on long trips, 3-4 weeks abroad, and have always been able to plan training so that I have a long skill to put in queue for all my characters. Yes, I've "lost" many days of skill training on month-long trips when the level V skill has not been enough, but I don't find that an issue either. Skill points aren't a big deal imho.

Anyway, the queue could be based on number of skills (10? 15?), or CCP could even offer an extended skill queue against PLEX.
Cydelle Abraham
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2014-05-06 14:05:12 UTC
As my skill queue ended roughly 7 hours ago and I'm not able to Change that within the next ~hour there is a definitive +1 from me...
Commander IceQ
Wet Soap Guard
#92 - 2014-05-06 14:32:44 UTC
Curious... I have read this entire thread... everyone (that is for it) is yelling "EXTEND!!" and yet no one has given a number to what to extend to...

The "30 days" option is not good for me. I have a few skills for 30+ days. So how long?

The birth of my Daughter took some priority... so I put in Marauders 5 (36 days), so a little planning goes a long way.

24 hours is fine.

Cydelle Abraham wrote:
As my skill queue ended roughly 7 hours ago and I'm not able to Change that within the next ~hour there is a definitive +1 from me...


And how do you know that it expired 7 hours ago?

There are various smartphone apps that alerts you as soon as you have room available so you could have been notified 31 hours ago. So how would a longer queue have helped?

I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it.

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#93 - 2014-05-06 14:54:17 UTC
Commander IceQ wrote:
Curious... I have read this entire thread... everyone (that is for it) is yelling "EXTEND!!" and yet no one has given a number to what to extend to...

The "30 days" option is not good for me. I have a few skills for 30+ days. So how long?

The birth of my Daughter took some priority... so I put in Marauders 5 (36 days), so a little planning goes a long way.

24 hours is fine.

Cydelle Abraham wrote:
As my skill queue ended roughly 7 hours ago and I'm not able to Change that within the next ~hour there is a definitive +1 from me...


And how do you know that it expired 7 hours ago?

There are various smartphone apps that alerts you as soon as you have room available so you could have been notified 31 hours ago. So how would a longer queue have helped?

The assumption that players interested in maintaining a skill queue, are also reliably connected to a PC capable of logging into EVE, is an unsupportable one.

Sure, we can obviously state they intend to play at some point, but that hardly defines a legitimate need for consistent access.
Would we LIKE to see everyone able to play when they prefer? Of course!

But our real lives do not cater to our wishes, at least not for many of us with demands and obligations which need to be met.

The sad truth, is that if we don't have access to a PC in the 24 hours prior to the queue expiring, we begin to be penalized for it.

Penalized in a very real sense, as our characters stop improving their skills, in a game where skill advancement is only permitted by this time sink exclusively.

This time sink, for some players, is the only interaction they can have with the game, for extended periods of time.

Why, in a game that boasts personal choice as defining what a valid play style is, are we telling people that they MUST do this in a certain way?

EVE is all about meta gaming in so many ways, I see no valid reason for this except to filter out players and handicap them if they have real life issues restricting their game access.
Which is also meta gaming, but unlike a sandbox ideal, has no alternatives.
Gawain Edmond
Khanid Bureau of Industry
#94 - 2014-05-06 15:02:06 UTC
You're all wrong.

The skill queue is at minimum 24 hours you can set it as long as atleast 2 months if you don't know if you'll be able to log on within 2 months then the chances are a longer skill queue will not help you.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#95 - 2014-05-06 15:04:18 UTC
Gawain Edmond wrote:
You're all wrong.

The skill queue is at minimum 24 hours you can set it as long as atleast 2 months if you don't know if you'll be able to log on within 2 months then the chances are a longer skill queue will not help you.

No, you can set it only as long as your longest available untrained skill level.

Maybe for YOU, that is 2 months.

Please do not presume to speak for others, as many are not fairly represented by your statement here.
Titan Andronicus
Rookie Mission Tax Haven
#96 - 2014-05-06 15:19:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Titan Andronicus
Commander IceQ wrote:
Curious... I have read this entire thread... everyone (that is for it) is yelling "EXTEND!!" and yet no one has given a number to what to extend to...


I gave a number; surely you read it?

Quote:
The "30 days" option is not good for me.


Ah, there you go. Smile

Let's also assume that where a number was not provided the desire is for an unlimited length. I did note the lack of consensus, and the OP provided different options...

Disclosure: your character is over 6 years, 3 months old. How many short skills do you have left to train?
Gawain Edmond
Khanid Bureau of Industry
#97 - 2014-05-06 15:23:02 UTC
so the longest a queue can get is still atleast 2 months (and for you i'll add this next bit) or as long as your longest skill. Which i'm pretty sure for almost everyone in eve is atleast a couple of days even just because people are unwilling to plan their training time properly dosen't mean ccp should hold their hands. The skill queue is plenty long enough it dosen't need extending next people will be asking for ccp to plan their training for them and to just give everyone all the skills at level 5 straight away because they can't be bothered to train them
Titan Andronicus
Rookie Mission Tax Haven
#98 - 2014-05-06 15:28:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Titan Andronicus
Gawain Edmond wrote:
so the longest a queue can get is still atleast 2 months (and for you i'll add this next bit) or as long as your longest skill. Which i'm pretty sure for almost everyone in eve is atleast a couple of days even just because people are unwilling to plan their training time properly dosen't mean ccp should hold their hands. The skill queue is plenty long enough it dosen't need extending next people will be asking for ccp to plan their training for them and to just give everyone all the skills at level 5 straight away because they can't be bothered to train them


You're not referring to a 'queue'. In your example you can actively train that skill, but you can't add (i.e. 'queue') another skill to train after it, until there is under 24 hours left of skill training remaining.

You can 'queue' your 2-month (i.e. long) skill for training to start after you have finished training other skills totaling under 24 hours.

Edit: removed some rhetoric.
Habris
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#99 - 2014-05-06 20:38:12 UTC
The answer is not a longer queue, but rather the way players can manage it. I'm sorry you cannot realize this.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#100 - 2014-05-06 20:46:45 UTC
Habris wrote:
The answer is not a longer queue, but rather the way players can manage it. I'm sorry you cannot realize this.

Absolutely.

They should be able to manage it from a web browser.