These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Clarifications and a thread of its own.
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Evi Polevhia
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#21 - 2014-05-05 02:37:49 UTC
N'maro Makari wrote:
Evi Polevhia wrote:
I didn't realize you've spoken with him recently. Or ever.


"Hunted my children", "burn my promised land to ash", none of these ringing a bell?


If I say Caldari Prime was my home world does that mean I'm implying it 100% belonged to me and no one else?
Kei Sparrowhawk
True Ethics
#22 - 2014-05-05 03:03:51 UTC
N'maro Makari wrote:
Evi Polevhia wrote:
I didn't realize you've spoken with him recently. Or ever.


"Hunted my children", "burn my promised land to ash", none of these ringing a bell?


He said "my promise land" because it is his promise land, it is the promise land of all members of Nation. If one day I get accepted into Nation, I will say "my promise land" because it will be my promise land.

I haven't spoken to him, so I can only make a guess about what he meant by "hunted my children". He could have been talking about how the empires attacked and murdered members of Nation that weren't able to defend themselves. These members could have even been children that were born or accepted into Nation. Once again, I haven't spoken to Sansha so this is just a guess.
N'maro Makari
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#23 - 2014-05-05 10:44:59 UTC
I think the word is apologism?

**Vherokior **
Evi Polevhia
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#24 - 2014-05-05 12:38:39 UTC
Still waiting for an answer from Ollie and from N'maro.
Ollie Rundle
#25 - 2014-05-05 15:47:12 UTC
Evi Polevhia wrote:
Still waiting for an answer from Ollie and from N'maro.


My apologies for keeping you waiting. I was busy with something important.

You are not, to my knowledge, a current State loyalist. You have not, to my knowledge, ever made statements trying to defend your loyalty to the State. You have not, to my knowledge, ever stated 'Loyalty is rewarded' by the State. When you satisfy these criteria, they may become relevant to any argument you are making to support them.

You are an admitted loyalist to Sansha Kuvakei, his Nation and a slave to his vision of a universe slaved to his will and whims - so-called 'Unity'. This is one of several plaintive threads you have created or participated in of recent times where you have tried to defend and promote your loyalty to him, his Nation and his vision. You have unequivocally stated he rewards loyalty such as you have shown to him, his Nation and his vision.

His 'reward' for those loyalists who attempt to lend direct aid to his Incursion forces is to lock and fire upon their vessels in an attempt to destroy them and their crews. You have not yet unequivocally demonstrated any other way in which Sansha Kuvakei rewards the loyalty given to him, his Nation or his vision.

All the pretty words and whimsical hopes for a better tomorrow you hold out as promised rewards are but a carrot to the mules that will follow it.

The reality is demonstrably different.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2014-05-05 16:30:30 UTC
The "carrot" for Sansha's Nation is the vague promise of collectivist transhumanism. The "stick," as Citizen Avhar openly expressed on multiple occasions, is that if you don't particularly want to be part of a collectivist transhuman society and don't comply with Kuvakei's demands, you will be rendered into biomass - while fully conscious, because, quote, "deploying anaesthetics at this stage would be a frightfully inefficient use of resources and might taint the output" - and that biomass will be turned into something that will comply.

In my discussions with Citizen Avhar, I repeatedly stated that the incursions were morally indefensible and that the majority of New Eden wanted absolutely nothing to do with Sansha, Sansha's Nation, True Citizens or True Slaves. While most apologists for Nation on the IGS will usually respond with "you don't know that!" or "you can't speak for everyone in the cluster!" or "how would they know? They've never been given the chance!" or a myriad of variants thereof, Avhar gave a surprisingly honest - if subtly terrifying - answer to this statement: "we're very much aware. It is of no particular concern to us."

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
ValentinaDLM
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#27 - 2014-05-05 18:05:18 UTC
Ollie Rundle wrote:
[
His 'reward' for those loyalists who attempt to lend direct aid to his Incursion forces is to lock and fire upon their vessels in an attempt to destroy them and their crews. You have not yet unequivocally demonstrated any other way in which Sansha Kuvakei rewards the loyalty given to him, his Nation or his vision.


How amusing, you just don't seem to understand it do you? The Master doesn't need our assistance in Incursions, if he did he would ask. I fought side by side with the Master in the Promised Land, to help establish the path for those forces; my contribution was minimal for certain, but I go where I am requested. Merely being on grid with the man, let me see I had made the right choice. I am not privy to the strategy behind the current incursions but, this much is clear the Master hasn't asked us to help, and the reasons behind that are moot.

As for rewards, helping the Nation is a reward in itself. The few tangible rewards I have got, are meaningless in the face of that. Why are you so caught up on this? Are you looking to assist the Nation? There are agents available, and they do have their own store for those who help, if all you are concerned about is the tangible gains. If you care about the future of humanity, you wouldn't need a tangible reward though.
DeadRow
State War Academy
Caldari State
#28 - 2014-05-05 21:20:53 UTC
Ollie Rundle wrote:

You are not, to my knowledge, a current State loyalist. You have not, to my knowledge, ever made statements trying to defend your loyalty to the State. You have not, to my knowledge, ever stated 'Loyalty is rewarded' by the State. When you satisfy these criteria, they may become relevant to any argument you are making to support them.

You are an admitted loyalist to Sansha Kuvakei, his Nation and a slave to his vision of a universe slaved to his will and whims - so-called 'Unity'. This is one of several plaintive threads you have created or participated in of recent times where you have tried to defend and promote your loyalty to him, his Nation and his vision. You have unequivocally stated he rewards loyalty such as you have shown to him, his Nation and his vision.

His 'reward' for those loyalists who attempt to lend direct aid to his Incursion forces is to lock and fire upon their vessels in an attempt to destroy them and their crews. You have not yet unequivocally demonstrated any other way in which Sansha Kuvakei rewards the loyalty given to him, his Nation or his vision.


Independant capsuleer loyalists around the cluster experience the same, yet I don't see you using this broken record rhetoric else where. I guess when this is the only way to you try and smear a corporation, you have to use it. I am sure Alpha was more than vindicated in his belief that his corporation's loyalty to Nation was seen and accepted when two Revenants under True Power itself remote transferred shield to his Chimera when his tank was failing during the Return.

The mechanics of all Empires work the same for all of us, strange that hm?

~Hikari
Evi Polevhia
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#29 - 2014-05-06 02:46:23 UTC
Ollie, I will post it a third time. Will you please respond to it?

Evi Polevhia wrote:
Ollie Rundle wrote:

Were you to attempt to demonstrate your expertise in shield transfer arrays to the benefit of Sansha Kuvakei's forces in an incursion zone you would be locked and fired upon by those same forces in short order.


Once again I will state. Take any State loyal Capsuleer, put them in an Osprey, and have them warp into a Caldari Navy secure military operational area. Judge their lifespan in seconds. Once you put away the stop watch and the remnants of the cruiser hull drift apart, I would hear again how Nation is unique in securing their military operational areas from outside interference.


If you having reading comprehension issues please say so. I know many clinics in the State which can assist you with any problems you may be experiencing in that area.

A question, Mister Ixiris. Should I care that a criminal who has broken a law and has been judged to receive the death penalty objects to his sentence?
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2014-05-06 06:05:44 UTC
ValentinaDLM wrote:
If you care about the future of humanity, you wouldn't need a tangible reward though.

Quite so. Destroying Nation ships and ending the suffering of True Slaves is reward enough in itself.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Ollie Rundle
#31 - 2014-05-06 10:50:12 UTC
You've been given the answer, Miss Polehvia. That it is not the answer you wanted to hear as it represents a fact-based reality you are unable to reconcile with your own delusions of how you desperately wish things were is something I have no need to help you with.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2014-05-06 11:57:49 UTC
Evi Polevhia wrote:
A question, Mister Ixiris. Should I care that a criminal who has broken a law and has been judged to receive the death penalty objects to his sentence?

I can't really answer that question, for one of two reasons. Either you're intentionally using an inappropriate comparison, or you genuinely consider being a civilian in one of the empires to be comparable to being a convict of a capital crime.

In the case of the former, you're being intentionally disingenuous and there's little point arguing until you stop. In the case of the latter, you're so toweringly, terrifyingly insane that there's little point arguing with you, full stop.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Evi Polevhia
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#33 - 2014-05-06 14:39:04 UTC
Since it is clear neither of you wish for a discussion and are blatantly ignoring my questions then this conversation serves no purpose. If anyone else has any questions and would actually like to participate in a dialogue I welcome them. Other then that, this is finished.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2014-05-06 14:45:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Andreus Ixiris
Either you think empire civilians are comparable to capital criminals, which is completely insane, or you're knowingly using a faulty comparison.

In that case, let me answer your question with a question - do you believe that civilian citizens of the empires are inherently guilty of some crime that renders a blatant and seemingly callous disregard for their personal preferences ethically justifiable? Oh, and also, just so we can skip the usual textwalls of prevarication and moral comparisons to which Nation apologists are usually prone, let me clarify that a simple "yes" or "no" answer will do.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Evi Polevhia
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#35 - 2014-05-06 14:48:04 UTC
Why should you deserve a simple answer when I can't get a single simple answer out of anyone?
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2014-05-06 14:50:18 UTC
Evi Polevhia wrote:
Why should you deserve a simple answer when I can't get a single simple answer out of anyone?

Because I do not have the unenviable task of having to justify the comparison of civilians to capital criminals.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Evi Polevhia
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#37 - 2014-05-06 14:52:22 UTC
My point with my question was this. What gives the empire cultures the right to inflict unwanted judgement upon people?
N'maro Makari
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#38 - 2014-05-06 14:54:39 UTC
You should get in the habit of finishing what you started.

You know, as opposed to; "You're all ignorant, why won't anyone listen to me!"

I think it's known colloquially as "Doing a Revan Neferis".

**Vherokior **
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2014-05-06 14:55:11 UTC
Evi Polevhia wrote:
What gives the empire cultures the right to inflict unwanted judgement upon people?

... not having abducted vast numbers of unconsenting civilians and performing deeply unethical experiments on them for the purposes of then turning them into an army for use against their own countrymen?

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Evi Polevhia
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#40 - 2014-05-06 15:06:38 UTC
N'maro Makari wrote:
You should get in the habit of finishing what you started.


That cannot happen without effort from both sides of the discussion. I've tried several times to get Ollie to aknowledge that every Navy fires on those loyal to them if they trespass in a military area but he keeps skipping past that point and going "Grr, Nation bad" despite no difference between Nation or the State in this respect. I am not sure if he has some sort of mental block preventing him from acknowledging a point a support of Nation makes or what his issue is.

Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Evi Polevhia wrote:
What gives the empire cultures the right to inflict unwanted judgement upon people?

... not having abducted vast numbers of unconsenting civilians and performing deeply unethical experiments on them for the purposes of then turning them into an army for use against their own countrymen?


So glassing our planets you get a pass on, is that how it works?