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Warfare & Tactics

 
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[Fanfest 2014] Factional Warfare, round table.
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X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#81 - 2014-05-05 14:29:32 UTC
King Fu Hostile wrote:
And what's wrong with that? Why would the defender need to sit 19 minutes in a novice for no LP after the "attacker" has been driven off? What purpose does this serve, is it compelling and exciting gameplay?
It serves as a punishment for winning the engagement! How dare you run them out??!!
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#82 - 2014-05-05 14:31:08 UTC
King Fu Hostile wrote:


And what's wrong with that? Why would the defender need to sit 19 minutes in a novice for no LP after the "attacker" has been driven off? What purpose does this serve, is it compelling and exciting gameplay?

Note that timer rollback does not mean the plex despawns, it just means that both parties start at 0 when the opponent has been booted out. To deny the offenders the plex, defenders still need to cap it. It also works both ways.


No. that is timer reset. not rollback

Timer reset: plex resets to zero
Timer rollback: the plex ticks backwards.

timer reset has no place in this game as it is opened for abuse by defending players

timer rollback actually has a place in eve.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#83 - 2014-05-05 14:35:43 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
Noone in FW lowsec would ever consider AFK ratting in a carrier or Ishtar, for example.


Of course they wouldn't ...why would they if you can just fit a condor with t1 cloak and t1 stabs and make more than triple times the income in the same time.

I don't think the non-cloak zone or nerfing of wcs's in plexes is going to help. In its simpliest form farming is this: If enemy is on supershort scan, warp away, avoid conflict, go to another plex even...and come back when enemy is gone. You don't really need to commit to your plex to capture it.

If there was a fast rollback feature (timers running 5x faster to reset to initial state) however, the enemy would just spend 1-2 minutes inside to reset the timer to its original state, undoing all the progress of the farmer.

At that point farmer would have to choose: Do I commit, stay and fight for my plex, or do I watch the enemy reset my timer.
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#84 - 2014-05-05 14:41:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Flyinghotpocket
Veskrashen wrote:
Deerin wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
..primarily because they view FW space as the riskiest at the moment,...


uhm...apparently they really don't understand it.

Low sec, and particularly FW low sec, is far more dangerous than operating in sov null these days. Some things are out of whack - stabbed plexers, bombers in L4 missions - but in general I feel CCP has it right with that opinion. Noone in FW lowsec would ever consider AFK ratting in a carrier or Ishtar, for example.

back in the days or major unrestricted complexe's we used to run them with archons. just sayin. these things did happen.

and that WAS how some of us made our isk. through collecting minmatar dog tag's which were very profitable

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Rahelis
Doomheim
#85 - 2014-05-05 15:22:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Rahelis
Frist I want to thank Veskrashen for his sharing of much appreciated Information.

Surly CCP is fighting a multifornt war at this time, doing much stuff to get their game running for the next 2 or 3 years - with much more competition in their nice of the market.

Closing the world of darkness mmo is also something that will benefit us eve players.

So we FW guys have to be patient - as always.

I am glad to see that ppl like Veskrashen are present at the round table and heared at all. It is nice to have enemies like this guy!

I would also like to see full scale war in the empire, every faction against every faction. Cross faction farming is of no use.


@ pockets - get back into the game, bro, amarr needs ya!
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#86 - 2014-05-05 16:00:47 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
it isn't really a pvp vs pve topic IMO. Its rather the fact that if you are after LP, running is more efficient then fighting. Thats a major flaw in the core design of plexing. Timer resets would make running or hiding inefficient, but you can and should still be able to run or hide if your really want.. its a sandbox after all....


I think you are right on this. But I do think it is a pve versus pvp issue. Ultimately the question is are you going to make the most progress for your faction by typically staying and fighting: pvp or are you going to make the most progress by avoiding other players: pve.

FW has always been about pve. CCP never implemented the mechanics that would make it more efficient to stay and rather than just run to another system and plex there.

BTW station lockouts also make it less efficient to stay and fight. If you could dock anywhere then you could stay and fight and even if you lose you could get back into the action right away. But now if you lose you may need to go several jumps just to reship losing even more time for your faction. Hence you are going to be more effective in the plexing war if you just avoid combat.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#87 - 2014-05-05 16:01:05 UTC
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
King Fu Hostile wrote:


And what's wrong with that? Why would the defender need to sit 19 minutes in a novice for no LP after the "attacker" has been driven off? What purpose does this serve, is it compelling and exciting gameplay?

Note that timer rollback does not mean the plex despawns, it just means that both parties start at 0 when the opponent has been booted out. To deny the offenders the plex, defenders still need to cap it. It also works both ways.


No. that is timer reset. not rollback

Timer reset: plex resets to zero
Timer rollback: the plex ticks backwards.

timer reset has no place in this game as it is opened for abuse by defending players

timer rollback actually has a place in eve.


Ok, reset then.

Rollback has zero effect on the issue of farming, which is what people are trying to fix. Farmer warps back immediately after the PVP pilot leaves, making it essentially exactly the same as current situation.

Timer reset sets a price for being driven out of the plex.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#88 - 2014-05-05 16:25:48 UTC
King Fu Hostile wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
King Fu Hostile wrote:


And what's wrong with that? Why would the defender need to sit 19 minutes in a novice for no LP after the "attacker" has been driven off? What purpose does this serve, is it compelling and exciting gameplay?

Note that timer rollback does not mean the plex despawns, it just means that both parties start at 0 when the opponent has been booted out. To deny the offenders the plex, defenders still need to cap it. It also works both ways.


No. that is timer reset. not rollback

Timer reset: plex resets to zero
Timer rollback: the plex ticks backwards.

timer reset has no place in this game as it is opened for abuse by defending players

timer rollback actually has a place in eve.


Ok, reset then.

Rollback has zero effect on the issue of farming, which is what people are trying to fix. Farmer warps back immediately after the PVP pilot leaves, making it essentially exactly the same as current situation.

Timer reset sets a price for being driven out of the plex.



CCP has many options here. resets, rollbacks, fast rollbacks, rollbacks only if enemy or neutral is in system or on grid or on grid with accell gate (allows fw pvpers to chase farmers out and not lose time in their own plex) dual timers and any of the various combinations of these. For example if you warp out with an enemy or neutral on grid its reset. If you warp out with an enemy/neutral in system it would just rollback. If you warp out with no enemy or neutral in system then your time stays. Nothing needs to be that complicated either. They just need to start implementing this. And honestly there is no reason they didn't do this right away in 2012 instead of messing with all the tiers and lp. By now they should be in the 2nd or 3rd iteration of how the plex timers work. In 2012 I believe they said they would do this and this was part of the plan. Now we are left wondering why the whole idea was apparently dropped.

But any of these ideas is are clearly going in the right direction they just need to start implementing them. Very few people care about occupancy in 99% of the systems now anyway so its not like anyone will be horribly upset if the first implementation of rollbacks doesn't work out perfectly.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#89 - 2014-05-05 16:30:51 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Cearain wrote:
I think you are right on this. But I do think it is a pve versus pvp issue. Ultimately the question is are you going to make the most progress for your faction by typically staying and fighting: pvp or are you going to make the most progress by avoiding other players: pve.

As a guy who has been in FW for a long time - the answer is fighting. For example: More was done to secure the warzone by recently beating the Caldari in Oicx, Enaluri, Innia, and Deven than by any number of afk plex farmers running stuff in backwater systems.

The map is not "flat" - it has terrain. And understanding that terrain is a major factor to being successful in FW. (The enemy is not defeated by taking Maintenault - it is defeated by taking Innia.) Of course, "defeat" is temporary since the Caldari can and will respawn in due time (due to FW mechanics, and willpower of the Caldari), but their recent losses have greatly affected the warzone.

I know you don't understand this stuff, but that's fine. You don't participate in FW and will therefore never "get it".
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#90 - 2014-05-05 16:46:35 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:
I think you are right on this. But I do think it is a pve versus pvp issue. Ultimately the question is are you going to make the most progress for your faction by typically staying and fighting: pvp or are you going to make the most progress by avoiding other players: pve.

As a guy who has been in FW for a long time - the answer is fighting. For example: More was done to secure the warzone by recently beating the Caldari in Oicx, Enaluri, Innia, and Deven than by any number of afk plex farmers running stuff in backwater systems.

The map is not "flat" - it has terrain. And understanding that terrain is a major factor to being successful in FW. (The enemy is not defeated by taking Maintenault - it is defeated by taking Innia.) Of course, "defeat" is temporary since the Caldari can and will respawn in due time (due to FW mechanics, and willpower of the Caldari), but their recent losses have greatly affected the warzone.

I know you don't understand this stuff, but that's fine. You don't participate in FW and will therefore never "get it".



Since inferno, Gallente has always had the ability to get the biggest blob to defend your home system. That is why you think that is so wonderful.

You think you are some sort of a military strategist because you figured out that blobbing caldari out of their home bases will be very disruptive to them. But this is just obvious and there really is very little thinking involved.

You can look at the "terrain" all you want. But in the end either you have the blob to force them out of the system or you don't. Opening up the other 95% of systems (what you call back waters) and bringing them into play would make fw much more strategic than it is now.

Station lockouts only decrease the smaller militias options and therefore make fw less strategically interesting.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#91 - 2014-05-05 16:46:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Flyinghotpocket
King Fu Hostile wrote:


Ok, reset then.

Rollback has zero effect on the issue of farming, which is what people are trying to fix. Farmer warps back immediately after the PVP pilot leaves, making it essentially exactly the same as current situation.

Timer reset sets a price for being driven out of the plex.

timer resets will never be instated for the simple reason that a blob can show up and you just got -20 minutes of work.

rollback WILL have a effect on farm as 1 or 2 people will be able to patrol and defend a system instead of having 3.

when you have plexed for years on end you will understand how rollbacks will positively effect the warzone because the stuff that your saying says that you do not know how it will effect the warzone.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#92 - 2014-05-05 17:05:11 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Cearain wrote:
Since inferno, Gallente has always had the ability to get the biggest blob to defend your home system. That is why you think that is so wonderful.
Except when we fought Evoke. and then TEST, and then TEST and almost every Caldari FW corp and alliance. Being outnumbered and fighting against the odds are what makes this game fun. Leave "Eve Gladiator" and "Low Sec Fight Club" to others like yourself.

The rest of your post is nonsense and shows you do not understand anything wrt FW.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#93 - 2014-05-05 17:14:18 UTC
Samuel Reaper wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
it isn't really a pvp vs pve topic IMO. Its rather the fact that if you are after LP, running is more efficient then fighting. Thats a major flaw in the core design of plexing. Timer resets would make running or hiding inefficient, but you can and should still be able to run or hide if your really want.. its a sandbox after all.

Why are there timers in the first place? To force players to stay in space (its just the ultra short version of reinforcement timers), which ends up creating a conflict. Right now you can completely avoid the conflict while making progress.




Resets or rollbacks simply don't achieve the aim you identify here. The defender just drives the aggressor out of the plex and then flies off. He has no motivation to stay in place as the timer will roll back anyway and he can maintain the status quo - which is inherently a defensive victory - without ever capping a plex.


if the agressor flies off a few times he will realize he will have to ship up to plex in this particular system and interesting things will happen. Thats actually exactly how it should be. You are calling it defensive victory, but it also works for offense.

A system which allows to make progress without causing conflict is not the right system for the factional war game. It might be perfect for something else... but not as conflict driver

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
ALUCARD 1208
Digital Ghosts
#94 - 2014-05-05 17:26:38 UTC  |  Edited by: ALUCARD 1208
Cearain wrote:



Since inferno, Gallente has always had the ability to get the biggest blob to defend your home system. That is why you think that is so wonderful.

You think you are some sort of a military strategist because you figured out that blobbing caldari out of their home bases will be very disruptive to them. But this is just obvious and there really is very little thinking involved.



You do realise that since inferno calmil has been the largest militia in our warzone even sparked numbers over 10k and had numerous null sec blocs come over too?

We take home systems when we need to like say enaluri for instance we had word OMG were moving there to take a gallente home system of hallanen for the level 5 agent. so we stopped them in there tracks and took away there staging system and gave SOTF a home in the process... strategic enough?

BEBOPS ODE TO PERUNGA
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2014-05-05 17:40:04 UTC
Cearain wrote:


Since inferno, Gallente has always had the ability to get the biggest blob to defend your home system. That is why you think that is so wonderful.



No, this is wrong. We simply had the most people that weren't trying to get petty revenge against each other.

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#96 - 2014-05-05 18:05:12 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
FYI: Wall of text incoming.

So I attended the FW Roundtable, and of course was rather involved in the discussions. Here's some points that I recall, and my impressions.

Good Stuff.



Thanks for the details.
Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#97 - 2014-05-05 18:07:27 UTC
No cloaking - good choice. Limits some aspects of fun/lame (depending who you ask) gameplay but should be beneficial overall. Note of sorts: No cloak in cap radius is not enough - it should be reaching farther out as moving 1k in/out of cap radius is still very trivial.

Respawning rats sounds okay as well, it will slow it down, especially for flimsy minimum-dps ships running meds.

And now imagine if WCS would be active modules (debuffs obv. apply while fitted/online) that work with a spool up time, require cap, or similar.


Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.
Samuel Reaper
Conspiracy Theory.
#98 - 2014-05-05 18:19:19 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
King Fu Hostile wrote:
And what's wrong with that? Why would the defender need to sit 19 minutes in a novice for no LP after the "attacker" has been driven off? What purpose does this serve, is it compelling and exciting gameplay?
It serves as a punishment for winning the engagement! How dare you run them out??!!


I too think that one 50mil SP character in a Comet should be able to defend a dozen plexes at a time against low-skilled characters in basic frigates. It is the height of absurdity to ask a pilot with lots of skillpoints to actually sit in a plex and run the timer down if he wants to hold it. He should be able to stop people soloing as many plexes as he can reach without ever having to do the boring scrub work the attackers will have to do to make any progress.

I agree that the current system isn't ideal but the rollback fix is worse. Optimal option is to have two timers and whoever counts down there own one first wins the plex.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#99 - 2014-05-05 18:35:01 UTC
Samuel Reaper wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
King Fu Hostile wrote:
And what's wrong with that? Why would the defender need to sit 19 minutes in a novice for no LP after the "attacker" has been driven off? What purpose does this serve, is it compelling and exciting gameplay?
It serves as a punishment for winning the engagement! How dare you run them out??!!


I too think that one 50mil SP character in a Comet should be able to defend a dozen plexes at a time against low-skilled characters in basic frigates. It is the height of absurdity to ask a pilot with lots of skillpoints to actually sit in a plex and run the timer down if he wants to hold it. He should be able to stop people soloing as many plexes as he can reach without ever having to do the boring scrub work the attackers will have to do to make any progress.

I agree that the current system isn't ideal but the rollback fix is worse. Optimal option is to have two timers and whoever counts down there own one first wins the plex.
Two low-skilled players in hookbills > 1 high skilled player in Comet - if the two low skilled players are competent.
Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#100 - 2014-05-05 18:43:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Rinai Vero
Hyperbole much?

In my opinion pvp pilots who are willing to engage should be able to disrupt the activities of pilots who refuse to do so. Many pilots are motivated by pvp and don't enjoy orbiting buttons, timer rollbacks reward the risk they take in being willing to pvp. This will also reward more teamwork within a coordinated militia. Newer players who are seeking to impact warzone control can run timers, supported by pvp focused players who disrupt the enemy.