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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Battleships

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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2001 - 2014-05-04 02:24:20 UTC
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
Don't worry, Eve:The 3rd Decade is less than a decade away so maybe they'll do a big release of an active, mid slot, 1-per ship ballistic enhancer. Big smile

Assuming the zombie apocalypse hasn't consumed us all by then...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#2002 - 2014-05-04 02:30:01 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
What is everyone leaning towards for the Rattlesnake? Rapid heavy launchers or cruise? (assuming torpedoes are out)

Drones with either Cruise+T1 ammo. Currently with 3xCN BCU and 3xDDAs, we're looking at:
* 797 DPS with Fury,
* 751 DPS with Gardes.


[list]I'm leaning towards cruise with T1 ammo, due to
  • RHML range limitations,
  • DPS loss to RHML's ~3 second RoF (I'm not going to count Rapid volleys) and
  • T1 explosion radius/speed of T1 cruise + rigors is better than HM Fury (using speed rigs instead of rigors.)
  • no looooooooooooooooooooooooooong reload timers

    • So your looking at Cruise with T1 ammo then quote, Fury Dps
    Your comparing T1 Cruise with damage application rigs to RHML with velocity rigs. Compare both with the same rigs, you have a comparison.
    What you did was pick the best outcome for 1 and compared it to worst outcome for the other.

    In pretty much all situations I will take damage application over range.
    If you are able to hit your target reliably with good application of damage, range becomes secondary. If spawn range is an issue, MJD + Good close / mid range damage application = win win.

    Sorry but about the only thing you got right here is - no long reload timers. (and the garde Dps)

    My opinions are mine.

      If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

    It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
    Arthur Aihaken
    CODE.d
    #2003 - 2014-05-04 02:52:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
    There's only one thing one needs to know about rapid launchers: assuming your OCD is working overtime and you don't miss any volleys, they are effective to 65% of stated dps. So if it says you're getting 1000 dps - you're actually getting 650 dps when you factor in reload times. The one thing rapid launchers do have the potential for is to reduce incoming dps by eliminating targets more quickly. This is only to a point, however. You often need full rigors, flares and T2 Fury ammunition to accomplish this.

    Incidentally, the reason many of us aren't fans of the rapid launchers (despite numerous efforts) is that we basically saw a decent PvE-PvP system turned into PvP only.

    I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
    stoicfaux
    #2004 - 2014-05-04 03:03:48 UTC
    Sgt Ocker wrote:

    So your looking at Cruise with T1 ammo then quote, Fury Dps
    Your comparing T1 Cruise with damage application rigs to RHML with velocity rigs. Compare both with the same rigs, you have a comparison.
    What you did was pick the best outcome for 1 and compared it to worst outcome for the other.

    In pretty much all situations I will take damage application over range.
    If you are able to hit your target reliably with good application of damage, range becomes secondary. If spawn range is an issue, MJD + Good close / mid range damage application = win win.

    Sorry but about the only thing you got right here is - no long reload timers. (and the garde Dps)

    My bad for not making my initial point clear. If you start by maxing DPS, you get 797 DPS with Fury cruise and 751 DPS with Gardes. Which means neither system is overtly "better" or dominant over the other. Unlike, say, a Dominix, where the hybrid DPS is obviously secondary to drone DPS.

    Thus my point is that instead of assuming the missile DPS is "primary" on a Rattlesnake, I would make drone DPS the primary weapon system whenever there was a need to choose between the two (such as when trying to fit it, or deciding which modules to pimp out with faction.) Then I list the concerns and drawbacks of the RS's missiles to justify relegating missile DPS as a secondary consideration.

    As for damage application, the RS's missile damage application is subpar to the drone DPS application, IMHO. Fitting a MJD prevents you from maxing both missile and drone DPS, so you have to choose which one to diminish.

    Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
    KaDa en Bauldry
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #2005 - 2014-05-04 06:27:03 UTC
    Sgt Ocker wrote:
    Role Bonuses;
    150% to Drone Damage and Hitpoints - 100m Drone Bandwidth 200m Drone Bay - Can only launch 2 of any specific drone size or type at a time.
    And now your bonused drones are doing as much damage, as a full flight of unbonused ones. Roll

    You can't really have 100 Bandwidth and max 2 drone in space at the same time with one drone damage bonus applying to all, and call it balanced (for all of them).
    Unless you are aiming at a super-Gecko-carrier.

    Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.
    Sgt Ocker
    What Corp is it
    #2006 - 2014-05-04 07:01:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
    KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
    Sgt Ocker wrote:
    Role Bonuses;
    150% to Drone Damage and Hitpoints - 100m Drone Bandwidth 200m Drone Bay - Can only launch 2 of any specific drone size or type at a time.
    And now your bonused drones are doing as much damage, as a full flight of unbonused ones. Roll

    You can't really have 100 Bandwidth and max 2 drone in space at the same time with one drone damage bonus applying to all, and call it balanced (for all of them).
    Unless you are aiming at a super-Gecko-carrier.


    Gecko's and RHML. Was my thinking.
    The alternative as currently proposed - 1 Gecko with 275% bonus or 3 & 3/4 Geckos.
    So yes if we are to have a super drone Pirate Battleship why not give it a special bonus to the Best Faction Super Drone available.

    Call it a Super-Gecko-Carrier -- wish I had thought of that name Blink

    The ship will not have a bonus to light or medium drones with current balancing.
    What I did was give light and medium drones a hitpoint bonus.. 2 light or medium drones with the Dps & HP of 5.
    Fielding T2 Heavy Drones would be the only place you lose a little Dps but why would you want to field T2 Heavies when you can field 2 Geckos (Fighters in all but name) that are nearly twice as fast and have double the HP and Dps..

    Sorry but I don't see a downside here.

    Unless cost is an issue (Geckos are likely to cost a bit more), in which case - buy a Domi or Ishtar, both of which by the way have better drone bonuses than the Snake.

    My opinions are mine.

      If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

    It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
    baltec1
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #2007 - 2014-05-04 07:07:28 UTC
    Arthur Aihaken wrote:
    What is everyone leaning towards for the Rattlesnake? Rapid heavy launchers or cruise? (assuming torpedoes are out)


    All the missiles are fair game for me.
    Sniper Smith
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #2008 - 2014-05-04 07:22:26 UTC
    With the Gecko being the new Guistras "Drone".. with I hope faction versions of the Medium and Light drones as well.. I have a suggestion for the whole line..

    Change it to 4 drones, half the bonuses.. This way I RS could launch 2 of the new "super" done, or 4 normal ones. Likewise of the smaller ships. And has the added bonus of adding back some of the lost drone utility from the various ships that were lost by the limited bandwidth.

    Would be rather epic.
    Arthur Aihaken
    CODE.d
    #2009 - 2014-05-04 07:47:09 UTC
    Sniper Smith wrote:
    Would be rather epic.

    It would. Probably why we won't get it...

    I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
    Mournful Conciousness
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #2010 - 2014-05-04 10:03:30 UTC
    Am I missing something about these gecko drones? Isn't the best place to put them on a carrier?

    Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
    epicurus ataraxia
    Illusion of Solitude.
    Illusion of Solitude
    #2011 - 2014-05-04 10:07:16 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
    Sniper Smith wrote:
    With the Gecko being the new Guistras "Drone".. with I hope faction versions of the Medium and Light drones as well.. I have a suggestion for the whole line..

    Change it to 4 drones, half the bonuses.. This way I RS could launch 2 of the new "super" done, or 4 normal ones. Likewise of the smaller ships. And has the added bonus of adding back some of the lost drone utility from the various ships that were lost by the limited bandwidth.

    Would be rather epic.



    Just having ANY drone system that retains capability at all target sizes, as previously existed, will not then consistute a degradation of drone capability and will be very pleasant. (Unnerf dronesRoll)
    With the missile changes, The rattlesnake would then have received an overall rebalance that will have improved it . the focus on damage type for bonus and the reduction of range provide balancing factors .
    It would still lack that special something that makes for a pirate boat, but something around geckos may be that answer.

    There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
    epicurus ataraxia
    Illusion of Solitude.
    Illusion of Solitude
    #2012 - 2014-05-04 10:11:28 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
    Arthur Aihaken wrote:
    Sniper Smith wrote:
    Would be rather epic.

    It would. Probably why we won't get it...


    So THAT is why we cannot have anything nice?Roll

    Being as it seems that the role may be one focused on shooting people in the face, can it please focus on that and do it really really well?
    It has great potential, but honestly, up close and personal, on a ship that cannot handle all target classes with sentries, heavies, and missiles? Seriously?
    We have a ship that clearly is being brought into fighting at closer range, so in mid ranges one will swap sentries like a six handed monkey,to make sure absolutely nothing smaller than a battlecruiser remains alive, while pumping out missiles that get their best at close range, heavies, will still need to be up close and personal with webbed targets.

    That is just not doing it well at all!
    You have two weapons systems with different profiles. Like mounted cavalry that instead of fighting with a sword and lance, then relies on throwing spears and a sniper rifle too..

    Sure you CAN kill stuff, but can you before you get hilariously whelped?

    There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
    epicurus ataraxia
    Illusion of Solitude.
    Illusion of Solitude
    #2013 - 2014-05-04 10:28:04 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
    Sgt Ocker wrote:
    KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
    Sgt Ocker wrote:
    Role Bonuses;
    150% to Drone Damage and Hitpoints - 100m Drone Bandwidth 200m Drone Bay - Can only launch 2 of any specific drone size or type at a time.
    And now your bonused drones are doing as much damage, as a full flight of unbonused ones. Roll

    You can't really have 100 Bandwidth and max 2 drone in space at the same time with one drone damage bonus applying to all, and call it balanced (for all of them).
    Unless you are aiming at a super-Gecko-carrier.


    Gecko's and RHML. Was my thinking.
    The alternative as currently proposed - 1 Gecko with 275% bonus or 3 & 3/4 Geckos.
    So yes if we are to have a super drone Pirate Battleship why not give it a special bonus to the Best Faction Super Drone available.

    Call it a Super-Gecko-Carrier -- wish I had thought of that name Blink

    The ship will not have a bonus to light or medium drones with current balancing.
    What I did was give light and medium drones a hitpoint bonus.. 2 light or medium drones with the Dps & HP of 5.
    Fielding T2 Heavy Drones would be the only place you lose a little Dps but why would you want to field T2 Heavies when you can field 2 Geckos (Fighters in all but name) that are nearly twice as fast and have double the HP and Dps..

    Sorry but I don't see a downside here.

    Unless cost is an issue (Geckos are likely to cost a bit more), in which case - buy a Domi or Ishtar, both of which by the way have better drone bonuses than the Snake.


    A pure carrier focus would also be a very good role for the rattlesnake. The majority of damage from the geckos with light missiles for application of damage to smaller targets. (Or T2 Precision heavies with a standard or rapid launcher) but the Majority of damage from the drones.

    Either that or just as you suggest. that will be a lovely desireable ship. I do still believe that with your suggestion, mediums should also do more damage, as missiles will be doing less due to fitting missiles for smaller targets. Especially as it takes forever to switch ammo. Hence my suggestion of a full flight of Gila superdrones, with the Geckos as the pirate "special sauce"

    I can visualise it as being fitted for precision missiles in rapid heavy or light launchers, and never switching ammo, and Gila or Ghecko , and possibly worm, drones being selected according to threat profile.

    This ship is desperate for focus, almost ANY focus. Please CCP let it do SOMETHING well.

    There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
    KaDa en Bauldry
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #2014 - 2014-05-04 10:50:44 UTC
    epicurus ataraxia wrote:
    It has great potential, but honestly, up close and personal, on a ship that cannot handle all target classes with sentries, heavies, and missiles? Seriously?

    Why would it need to handle all target profiles at the same time with the same fit?

    You choice how to fit it, and against the chosen foe it will be brutal.
    You want to brawl battleships? MWD, Torps, Heavies.
    Frigate mopup? Lights, RLMLs, web.

    I still say that in L4s packing a MJD, you could fly it well at mid-range with RHMLs and Sentry drones and nothing else as weaponry.
    Though I'll try Cruise missiles.

    Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.
    epicurus ataraxia
    Illusion of Solitude.
    Illusion of Solitude
    #2015 - 2014-05-04 10:56:01 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
    KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
    epicurus ataraxia wrote:
    It has great potential, but honestly, up close and personal, on a ship that cannot handle all target classes with sentries, heavies, and missiles? Seriously?

    Why would it need to handle all target profiles at the same time with the same fit?

    You choice how to fit it, and against the chosen foe it will be brutal.
    You want to brawl battleships? MWD, Torps, Heavies.
    Frigate mopup? Lights, RLMLs, web.

    I still say that in L4s packing a MJD, you could fly it well at mid-range with RHMLs and Sentry drones and nothing else as weaponry.
    Though I'll try Cruise missiles.

    Now the rattlesnake has decent missiles, sentries are really, not the ideal mix.
    Works with good cruise improvements, but with reduced control range.
    Does not work very well with the other missiles.
    So if one fits for a different missile than cruise, you want a mid range drone, that does not tie you to one place.
    That is not there in this proposal.
    Unbonused mediums, just will not cut it.
    Hence my suggestions (which I have shamelessly copied from Motie Big smile) For Gila class superdrones for the Rattler.
    As his idea was better than my original idea of retaining the bonuses to smaller drones.

    Truthfully, what has been gained by removing the bonus to light and medium drones anyway? Was the Rattlesnake regarded as overpowered and a drone murder platform? The one ship that desperately needed a buff got shot in the face with the rebalance , (or was it shot in the foot?)

    There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
    KaDa en Bauldry
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #2016 - 2014-05-04 11:03:36 UTC  |  Edited by: KaDa en Bauldry
    epicurus ataraxia wrote:
    So if one fits for a different missile than cruise, you want a mid range drone, that does not tie you to one place.
    That is not there in this proposal.

    Gardes and the reworked Bouncers will still pulverize everything outside 20km.
    And once they are too close, you just jump to the next point, release drones again.

    The mobility is there, only (since you like to use metaphors) not the usual nomad archer way, but artillery with teleport magic.

    *edit* Mjolnir Fury Heavy Missiles fly almost as fast as standard Cruise, only not that far.

    Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.
    Kaarous Aldurald
    Black Hydra Consortium.
    #2017 - 2014-05-04 11:39:52 UTC
    epicurus ataraxia wrote:

    Truthfully, what has been gained by removing the bonus to light and medium drones anyway? Was the Rattlesnake regarded as overpowered and a drone murder platform? The one ship that desperately needed a buff got shot in the face with the rebalance , (or was it shot in the foot?)


    Today I learned that getting a 50% missile damage bonus counts as "shot in the face".

    It gained double it's present missile dps. That's what has been gained. Crusade all you like, but you are not getting back light or medium drones any more than the Gila is getting back sentries.

    "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

    One of ours, ten of theirs.

    Best Meltdown Ever.
    epicurus ataraxia
    Illusion of Solitude.
    Illusion of Solitude
    #2018 - 2014-05-04 11:44:35 UTC
    Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
    epicurus ataraxia wrote:

    Truthfully, what has been gained by removing the bonus to light and medium drones anyway? Was the Rattlesnake regarded as overpowered and a drone murder platform? The one ship that desperately needed a buff got shot in the face with the rebalance , (or was it shot in the foot?)


    Today I learned that getting a 50% missile damage bonus counts as "shot in the face".

    It gained double it's present missile dps. That's what has been gained. Crusade all you like, but you are not getting back light or medium drones any more than the Gila is getting back sentries.

    Once again, it is unfortunate that one disregards what others say, and picks on a nice soundbyte.
    I will never change your opinion, and am not trying to.

    There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
    Kaarous Aldurald
    Black Hydra Consortium.
    #2019 - 2014-05-04 11:49:50 UTC
    epicurus ataraxia wrote:
    Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
    epicurus ataraxia wrote:

    Truthfully, what has been gained by removing the bonus to light and medium drones anyway? Was the Rattlesnake regarded as overpowered and a drone murder platform? The one ship that desperately needed a buff got shot in the face with the rebalance , (or was it shot in the foot?)


    Today I learned that getting a 50% missile damage bonus counts as "shot in the face".

    It gained double it's present missile dps. That's what has been gained. Crusade all you like, but you are not getting back light or medium drones any more than the Gila is getting back sentries.

    Once again, it is unfortunate that one disregards what others say, and picks on a nice soundbyte.
    I will never change your opinion, and am not trying to.


    You asked a question.

    I answered it.

    What we gained from losing light and medium drones bonuses was a massive increase in missile damage, across any size missiles.

    "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

    One of ours, ten of theirs.

    Best Meltdown Ever.
    epicurus ataraxia
    Illusion of Solitude.
    Illusion of Solitude
    #2020 - 2014-05-04 11:58:03 UTC
    KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
    epicurus ataraxia wrote:
    So if one fits for a different missile than cruise, you want a mid range drone, that does not tie you to one place.
    That is not there in this proposal.

    Gardes and the reworked Bouncers will still pulverize everything outside 20km.
    And once they are too close, you just jump to the next point, release drones again.

    The mobility is there, only (since you like to use metaphors) not the usual nomad archer way, but artillery with teleport magic.
    *checks* Mjolnir Fury Heavy Missiles fly FASTER than T1 Cruise, almost at the speed of bonused Cruise buth with much better Explosion Radius.
    ...
    OK. Rapid Heavy Missiles it is.


    Yes, it does look like heavy missiles will suit this boat best, whether rapid heavy or just heavy will depend on whether one needs to front load damage.

    So we really need to look at how much damage heavy missiles apply, when setting overall balance.

    There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE