These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

The Ultimate Solution to the T2 BPO Problem Announced by CCP

First post
Author
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#61 - 2014-05-03 21:02:59 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
As anyone who was watching the fanfest stream knows, CCP Greyscale today announced that T2 BPOs will be going away in the future: that they've caused problems for the game for years and everyone has felt they'd be going away at some point. That point is apparently coming soon. The discussion indicated that they would not simply be deleted but that there would be a phasing out plan (presumably, the often-considered replacement with BPCs with a large number of copies).

Interestingly, CCP thought that people buying and selling T2 BPOs should have been taking this risk into account. As every bpo sells for something like 7-10 years profit at this point, players clearly did not have that sort of foresight or common sense, so we can expect the price to plummet dramatically.

What are people's thoughts on finally eradicating T2 BPOs to secure a future for invention as the only means of producing T2 bpos, and what do people think will happen in the interim between now and their eventual demise? What sorts of outrage do we expect from current T2 BPO holders who see large parts of their investment wiped out? Should they be compensated, or should we realize that buying a product that clearly was bad for the game and paying a decade's worth of profit was the sort of "sure, let me lend a million dollars to this strawberry picker for a mortgage on a mansion worth more than he'll make in his lifetime" financial decision that deserves the loss that everyone but they saw coming? When it comes to the plan to bail out T2 bpo holders with BPCs, how much is enough/too much? What sort of prices do we think we'll see people bailing out of their T2 BPO investments at, or do you think they'll hang onto them hoping that if they post loudly enough, they'll change CCP's mind?


I know you are wanting to prise as many T2 BPOs from any industrialists cold dead hands, but sinking to this level... *slowly shakes head*

Heh wonder if anyone was actually dumb enough to fall for this and sold their T2 BPO.
Revman Zim
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#62 - 2014-05-03 21:06:23 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
mkint wrote:

Invention can never match a BPO. Production from a T2 BPO less than half as much build materials as an invention build, not even counting the cost of doing the invention itself. That sucks. But where it's completely broken is where a single T2 BPO can completely shut down all invention for a particular item, if you've got the right BPO. That's just not acceptable, no matter how much you paid for that BPO.


Exactly how many T2 BPOs do you believe there are in game, and which ones exactly can shut down all invention?

If a single BPO can shut down all invention, what does it tell you about demand for that particular item?

Have you actually done invention? A T2 BPO owner is limited on how many items he can make in a given time period. Inventors can create virtually unlimited runs that can be built simultaneously.

If there is a lot of demand for Ishtars (for instance) an you build Ishtars is it more advantageous to be able to manufacture them using 1 manufacturing slot, or 10 at once?

"That Sucks" sounds a lot like jealousy to me.



Making copies of a T2 BPO means the only limitation of items to be made is based on the number of manufacturing jobs you and your alts have skills for.

It is an unfair game mechanic. You are on the other side of course, because you are benefiting from the imbalance. Congrats. CCP is going to fix it. Great.
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#63 - 2014-05-03 21:15:40 UTC
Revman Zim wrote:


Making copies of a T2 BPO means the only limitation of items to be made is based on the number of manufacturing jobs you and your alts have skills for.

It is an unfair game mechanic. You are on the other side of course, because you are benefiting from the imbalance. Congrats. CCP is going to fix it. Great.


Making copies takes longer per run than manufacturing. How does that disadvantage create an advantage?

You keep saying it's unfair, but you have not demonstrated how. See jealousy.

How do I benefit when I no longer own a T2 BPO and have not for many years?

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#64 - 2014-05-03 21:24:10 UTC
Revman Zim wrote:


Making copies of a T2 BPO means the only limitation of items to be made is based on the number of manufacturing jobs you and your alts have skills for.

It is an unfair game mechanic. You are on the other side of course, because you are benefiting from the imbalance. Congrats. CCP is going to fix it. Great.


I don't have one. I just have a problem with CCP vaporizing player's assets to make up for their own past mistakes.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Revman Zim
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#65 - 2014-05-03 21:29:40 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
Revman Zim wrote:


Making copies of a T2 BPO means the only limitation of items to be made is based on the number of manufacturing jobs you and your alts have skills for.

It is an unfair game mechanic. You are on the other side of course, because you are benefiting from the imbalance. Congrats. CCP is going to fix it. Great.


Making copies takes longer per run than manufacturing. How does that disadvantage create an advantage?

You keep saying it's unfair, but you have not demonstrated how. See jealousy.

How do I benefit when I no longer own a T2 BPO and have not for many years?



I am not jealous. I don't do T2 manufacturing. You trying to derail the conversation with personal attacks is juvenile.

I just want the mechanics of EVE to be equal for all. This is an instance where it is NOT.

Note, I said MECHANICS. Not skills, not experience... etc. So don't try to derail and turn this into "making EVE easier".
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#66 - 2014-05-03 21:40:09 UTC
Revman Zim wrote:

I don't do T2 manufacturing.

I just want the mechanics of EVE to be equal for all. This is an instance where it is NOT.

Note, I said MECHANICS. Not skills, not experience... etc. So don't try to derail and turn this into "making EVE easier".


O.K. You admittedly don't do T2 manufacturing so you have no idea what you are talking about and have never done the math because you'd know that invention is more lucrative.

Just because you *believe* something is bad due to simple ignorance or because someone else told you to believe so is not a good reason for CCP to take something away from another player because you can't have it too.

Gotcha. All is clear now. Original synopsis affirmed.

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.

Prince Kobol
#67 - 2014-05-03 21:40:19 UTC
Goons want your T2 BPO'S

Goons sperg post to create panic that they all going to get removed and your going to be holding nothing.

Stupid people rush to sell their T2 BPO's for next to nothing.

Goons buy lots of T2 BPO's very cheap and laugh at how stupid people are.

CCP announce they will do something to T2 BPO's in soon..

x number of years later T2 BPO's still exist in their current form.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#68 - 2014-05-03 21:44:36 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Goons want your T2 BPO'S

Goons sperg post to create panic that they all going to get removed and your going to be holding nothing.

Stupid people rush to sell their T2 BPO's for next to nothing.

Goons buy lots of T2 BPO's very cheap and laugh at how stupid people are.

CCP announce they will do something to T2 BPO's in soon..

x number of years later T2 BPO's still exist in their current form.

There's no need to take my word for it: anyone who watched the panel (or paid for HD and can rewatch) can confirm. I realize that denial is the first stage of grief but you're going to need to work harder on it.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#69 - 2014-05-03 21:47:17 UTC
Buying T2 BPOs is pretty stupid anyway.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Zakarumit CZ
Zakarum Industries
Forgers United
#70 - 2014-05-03 21:47:27 UTC
Revman Zim wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
Revman Zim wrote:


Making copies of a T2 BPO means the only limitation of items to be made is based on the number of manufacturing jobs you and your alts have skills for.

It is an unfair game mechanic. You are on the other side of course, because you are benefiting from the imbalance. Congrats. CCP is going to fix it. Great.


Making copies takes longer per run than manufacturing. How does that disadvantage create an advantage?

You keep saying it's unfair, but you have not demonstrated how. See jealousy.

How do I benefit when I no longer own a T2 BPO and have not for many years?



I am not jealous. I don't do T2 manufacturing. You trying to derail the conversation with personal attacks is juvenile.

I just want the mechanics of EVE to be equal for all. This is an instance where it is NOT.

Note, I said MECHANICS. Not skills, not experience... etc. So don't try to derail and turn this into "making EVE easier".


...you realise noone is stopping anyone from buying T2 BPOs? They are not limited to current owners as for example high sec capital ships. There are dozens of them for sale on contracts and another dozens on forum auctions. So yes, if you want to, you can get one. Its equal for everybody. Evem a newbie can buy one, if he is willing to spend ISK.
Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#71 - 2014-05-03 21:48:53 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Revman Zim wrote:


Making copies of a T2 BPO means the only limitation of items to be made is based on the number of manufacturing jobs you and your alts have skills for.

It is an unfair game mechanic. You are on the other side of course, because you are benefiting from the imbalance. Congrats. CCP is going to fix it. Great.


I don't have one. I just have a problem with CCP vaporizing player's assets to make up for their own past mistakes.


Thankfully CCP has shown the strength to do this before!

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them

Revman Zim
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#72 - 2014-05-03 21:49:13 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
Revman Zim wrote:

I don't do T2 manufacturing.

I just want the mechanics of EVE to be equal for all. This is an instance where it is NOT.

Note, I said MECHANICS. Not skills, not experience... etc. So don't try to derail and turn this into "making EVE easier".


O.K. You admittedly don't do T2 manufacturing so you have no idea what you are talking about and have never done the math because you'd know that invention is more lucrative.

Just because you *believe* something is bad due to simple ignorance or because someone else told you to believe so is not a good reason for CCP to take something away from another player because you can't have it too.

Gotcha. All is clear now. Original synopsis affirmed.



Just because I don't do T2 manufacturing NOW. Does not mean i have NEVER done it. I have. I understand the mechanics and have done it all. I used to make T2 100mn ABs and MWDs on another toon.

Once again, you are trying to negate my observations, not with anything valuable, but with more attacks.


mechtech
Ice Liberation Army
#73 - 2014-05-03 21:57:12 UTC  |  Edited by: mechtech
I think that if T2 BPOs are a problem, they should be nerfed, but not removed or replaced with BPCs.

A suitable nerf would be to lock them at ME/TE -1or something along those lines.

If there is a way to preserve the status of T2 BPOs while further reducing their impact on the market, that might be the best course of action for CCP to take. IMO T2 BPOs serve an important function of parking wealth for the super-rich. They sort of underpin the Eve economy in this way.

Either way I won't be shedding a tear, but I vote for keeping T2 BPOs unique and functional while greatly reducing their power (through production speed or efficiency reductions). I would certainly hope CCP is weighing this option along with the others.
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#74 - 2014-05-03 22:02:26 UTC
Compensation for T2 BPO holders?

We really want to start setting a precedent every time someone loses investment on a nerf?

Will I be able to get compensated when I lose my investment in something non-T2-BPO-related nerfed? Or is this just something for T2 BPO holders?

My thoughts are, just like everyone else has had to suck up investment losses on everything that has ever gotten nerfed, T2 BPO holders shall do the same. But that's just what I think.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.

Antihrist Pripravnik
Cultural Enrichment and Synergy of Diversity
Stain Neurodiverse Democracy
#75 - 2014-05-03 22:12:35 UTC
Finally.

An outdated game mechanic that was discontinued more than 5 years back is getting removed.

Good riddance.
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#76 - 2014-05-03 22:12:48 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Here's how CCP's probably going to do it, if they're smart.

First, in one of the point releases after kronos, they're going to nerf T2 BPOs across the board as part of an industry re-balance. Just like ships can be overpowered, so too can certain industry assets. They will be nerfed to the point where producing with T2 bpos will be completely non-competitive compared to invention.

About six months to a year after that change, they're going to replace all T2 BPO's with a 5000 run copy of a max invention blueprint, and, at that time, you are going to thank them.

And it's about time too. Cool
handbanana
State War Academy
Caldari State
#77 - 2014-05-03 22:12:48 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Goons want your T2 BPO'S

Goons sperg post to create panic that they all going to get removed and your going to be holding nothing.

Stupid people rush to sell their T2 BPO's for next to nothing.

Goons buy lots of T2 BPO's very cheap and laugh at how stupid people are.

CCP announce they will do something to T2 BPO's in soon..

x number of years later T2 BPO's still exist in their current form.

There's no need to take my word for it: anyone who watched the panel (or paid for HD and can rewatch) can confirm. I realize that denial is the first stage of grief but you're going to need to work harder on it.


Except nowhere in the panel did they say T2 bpos would be removed or that CCP had any kind of a solution.

Typical goons trying to leverage the meta game.

“It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man.”    -Jack Handy

mkint
#78 - 2014-05-03 22:49:15 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
mkint wrote:

Invention can never match a BPO. Production from a T2 BPO less than half as much build materials as an invention build, not even counting the cost of doing the invention itself. That sucks. But where it's completely broken is where a single T2 BPO can completely shut down all invention for a particular item, if you've got the right BPO. That's just not acceptable, no matter how much you paid for that BPO.


Exactly how many T2 BPOs do you believe there are in game, and which ones exactly can shut down all invention?

If a single BPO can shut down all invention, what does it tell you about demand for that particular item?

Have you actually done invention? A T2 BPO owner is limited on how many items he can make in a given time period. Inventors can create virtually unlimited runs that can be built simultaneously.

If there is a lot of demand for Ishtars (for instance) an you build Ishtars is it more advantageous to be able to manufacture them using 1 manufacturing slot, or 10 at once?

"That Sucks" sounds a lot like jealousy to me.

No, "that sucks" goes a long way to making invention even worse. And yes, there are definitely items where invention is not a thing because of the BPOs... devs have talked about it before, most recently in some of the industry threads. If you've got the right T2 BPO it will dominate that market to the point where it is literally impossible to profit from invention. In those particular cases, the production capabilities of the BPO outpace demand, apparently by a wide enough margin that normal playerbase growth will never offset it. I believe it's some certain ships... like the HACs or something. Or at least it used to be. I honestly don't know all the economic details of which ones, I just know what's shown up in devblogs, dev posts, and to a lesser extent what some of the players have said on the forums.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Dave Stark
#79 - 2014-05-03 22:50:11 UTC
eve isn't fair, just make them vanish in to thin air one day.
esquimo leviticus
ACE Trucking Co.
#80 - 2014-05-03 22:56:10 UTC
Obvious troll is obvious. Roll