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Amarr needs overhaul

Author
Opertone
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#61 - 2011-12-02 16:58:38 UTC
Amarr is pvp goodness. In hands of capable pilot amarr BS outperforms many other ships.

Amarr HACs are second to none, amarr Command are very good.

Before patch eagle sucks, deimos sucks, astrate, eos - waste of time, vulture sucks, vagabond and munin are situational.

All caldari ships suck in PvP, all except falcon, which doesn't suck because of cloak. Drake is semi decent PvP slowboat, suitable for outliving the enemy. That's it.

Abaddon is the shining glory of all PvP fleets.

This post sums up why the 'best' work with DCM inc.

WARP DRIVE makes eve boring

really - add warping align time 300% on gun aggression and eve becomes great again

Cloora
APEX Unlimited
APEX Conglomerate
#62 - 2011-12-02 16:59:41 UTC
Hellen STFU if you dont know most PVP Canes are shield tanked kiting setups.

OMG you are spewing crap.

Canes with nuets are armor brawlers they need to get within 12 km to use med nuets. Those will present problems for a Harbys if they get close enough. A shield cane will get eaten by a harby as they both fight in the same range and the harby does more DPS at that range and better tank

http://www.altaholics.blogspot.com

Hellen Kurvora
HC - Degc
#63 - 2011-12-02 17:01:03 UTC
Liam Mirren wrote:
You can't have it all, Amarr does fantastic in fleet pvp and some of them do good in gangs/solo. In pve they are still very good but run into damage type issues. Thing is that the abaddon/paladin solve that with massive dps (if people would just stop fitting like crap, abaddon does 800 dps at 60km and over 1100 dps at 25km).

Other races also have issues apart from... Minmatar. Thing is that Amarr has less issues than Gallente and Caldari and while I agree that some ships in the Amarr line feel weak, the same goes for other races. Only thing I'd change is make the prophecy and maller missile ships and all would be fine.

TL;DR yes you point out issues Amarr has but somehow you forget that other races also have issues, different issues ofcourse but still. So, deal with it.

I agree that other races have issues too, but in general, I think Minmatar is so vastly more powerful than everthing else, that it makes playing amarr feel especially weak. Just about everyone in pvp flys minmatar, which speaks volumes.

That being said, several of the top tier t1 ships within the amarr lineup struggle against all races, not just minnies. A harby will never beat a well fit myrm and a maller will never beat a well fit thorax.
Hellen Kurvora
HC - Degc
#64 - 2011-12-02 17:05:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Hellen Kurvora
Cloora wrote:
Hellen STFU if you dont know most PVP Canes are shield tanked kiting setups.

OMG you are spewing crap.

Canes with nuets are armor brawlers they need to get within 12 km to use med nuets. Those will present problems for a Harbys if they get close enough. A shield cane will get eaten by a harby as they both fight in the same range and the harby does more DPS at that range and better tank


How old are you 12? You sound ridiculous with all your "omfg hasfiubfgjasf basfb" nonsense. WoW forums are that way.

That being said, ALL canes are not kiting shield tankers. In fact, MOST pvp canes are armor tanked, simply because of the fact that that amarr eats up shield tank minnies. Speed tanked and kitting canes are far more rare than armor tanked ones. Like I said, pvp more then come "omfghsbdshdsh" me
HevyDevy
#65 - 2011-12-02 17:09:06 UTC
1. I fully agree here, though this has been said countless times before. Other weapons systems get bonuses to enhance them, amarr get bonuses to make the weapons viable, this is not right.

2. Being limited to em/thermal damage is fine imo. The ratio between the two types needs some slight tweaking on some crystals however (slightly more thermal, slightly less em to compensate).

3. Cap use can be annoying, but it used to be balanced since lasers were so powerful. Minor tweaking here as well, nothing major needed.

4. No comment here, as everyone knows this already.

Let's talk about their strengths.

1. My opinion of scorch is this, lasers with scorch are good. Lasers without scorch, are just decent. Take what you will from that.

2. This goes back to one of your previous points, about wasted ship bonuses to reduce laser cap use. Simply tweaking cap use and changing amarr ships to have a second *real* bonus would add a huge amount of needed variety. Yes please.

3. Switching crystals on the fly is very useful, though I would gladly give it up if it meant the other aspects of amarr ships/weapons were made more viable.
Hellen Kurvora
HC - Degc
#66 - 2011-12-02 17:10:22 UTC
Opertone wrote:
Amarr is pvp goodness. In hands of capable pilot amarr BS outperforms many other ships.

Amarr HACs are second to none, amarr Command are very good.

Before patch eagle sucks, deimos sucks, astrate, eos - waste of time, vulture sucks, vagabond and munin are situational.

All caldari ships suck in PvP, all except falcon, which doesn't suck because of cloak. Drake is semi decent PvP slowboat, suitable for outliving the enemy. That's it.

Abaddon is the shining glory of all PvP fleets.

The blackbird, shield moa with blasters, onyx, drake is an awesome pvp boat hence why its the most popular, scorpion, rohk sniper boats and rohk blaster boats are also very good.
Hellen Kurvora
HC - Degc
#67 - 2011-12-02 17:11:54 UTC
HevyDevy wrote:
1. I fully agree here, though this has been said countless times before. Other weapons systems get bonuses to enhance them, amarr get bonuses to make the weapons viable, this is not right.

2. Being limited to em/thermal damage is fine imo. The ratio between the two types needs some slight tweaking on some crystals however (slightly more thermal, slightly less em to compensate).

3. Cap use can be annoying, but it used to be balanced since lasers were so powerful. Minor tweaking here as well, nothing major needed.

4. No comment here, as everyone knows this already.

Let's talk about their strengths.

1. My opinion of scorch is this, lasers with scorch are good. Lasers without scorch, are just decent. Take what you will from that.

2. This goes back to one of your previous points, about wasted ship bonuses to reduce laser cap use. Simply tweaking cap use and changing amarr ships to have a second *real* bonus would add a huge amount of needed variety. Yes please.

3. Switching crystals on the fly is very useful, though I would gladly give it up if it meant the other aspects of amarr ships/weapons were made more viable.

One hundred percent agree with you
Fix My Lasers
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2011-12-02 17:15:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Fix My Lasers
Don't feed the trolls.
If some idiot can't be constructive ignore it!

Amarr is the only race that fit ACs on their ships more then any other race excluding Minnies, that's a fact.
Some newbs whine that ACs are not good and lasers are way better and they would fit lasers if their ships were friendly on equipping them. Like having "reduction in laser capacitor bonus". Well this is a bullsh*t.
I lived in null for like 4-5 years and I know what ships people usually use.
Even when everyone was crying that Hybrids suck there was a lot of Gallente ships flying around with those sucky hybrids.
Moreover 90% of those ships you pop up use hybrids. When you pop up some Amarr ship there is a good chance you will see ACs on it.

Basically statistics speaks for itself and obviously those who say lasers are fine never flown any Amarr ship or just a sucky troll.

Bring back Blaze and Lux crystals! http://eve.battleclinic.com/item/i12812-Blaze-L-details.html http://eve.battleclinic.com/item/i12832-Lux-L-details.html

Liam Mirren
#69 - 2011-12-02 17:17:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Liam Mirren
Hellen Kurvora wrote:
That being said, several of the top tier t1 ships within the amarr lineup struggle against all races, not just minnies. A harby will never beat a well fit myrm and a maller will never beat a well fit thorax.


Read my lips :P

Amarr is Op at FLEET COMBAT, you know that, I know that we all know that. The whole approach amarr has (armor tanked, slowish, ridiculous range and dps) means it's a beast in fleet combat and less good at solo pvp. Again, apart from a very few ships (omen needs PG and as said maller/proph need to be missile based) there is nothing wrong with amarr, just don't try to use them in a scenario that they don't do well in. All races (bar Minnie) have this issue.

There's things Amarr isn't good at, which is GOOD and as it SHOULD be. Go talk to a megathron pilot about how well he does in fleets, or Caldari BS pilot for that matter. Have a look as the dps a caracal does and the limitations the Moa has or how about the Eagle or Cerb. Gallente STILL isn't any good and Amarr is STILL much better in most respects (mostly due to silly range on pulses/scorch).

Stop complaining about the few things Amarr isn't good at because they're damn well OP in everything else and there's 2 other races who have far more issues.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.

Hellen Kurvora
HC - Degc
#70 - 2011-12-02 17:19:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Hellen Kurvora
Fix My Lasers wrote:
Don't feed the trolls.
If some idiot can't be constructive ignore it!

Amarr is the only race that fit ACs on their ships more then any other race excluding Minnies, that's a fact.
Some newbs whine that ACs are not good and lasers are way better and they would fit lasers if their ships were friendly on equipping them. Like having "reduction in laser capacitor bonus". Well this is a bullsh*t.
I lived in null for like 4-5 years and I know what ships people usually use.
Even when everyone was crying that Hybrids suck there was a lot of Gallente ships flying around with those sucky hybrids.
Moreover 90% of those ships you pop up use hybrids. When you pop up some Amarr ship there is a good chance you will see ACs on it.

Basically statistics speaks for itself and obviously those who say lasers are fine never flown any Amarr ship or just a sucky troll.

You have got a huge point here, I forgot all about this. I can not tell you how many people tell me to fit autos on my amarr ships. I think that speaks volumes. One of the primary fits for a prophecy is with autcannons. Even heard people putting them on baddons. If that does not speak true to what I am saying, nothing will
Captain Alcatraz
Did he say Jump
Dock Workers
#71 - 2011-12-02 17:27:47 UTC
Hellen Kurvora wrote:
Does anyone else agree with me?


No
Hellen Kurvora
HC - Degc
#72 - 2011-12-02 17:27:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Hellen Kurvora
Liam Mirren wrote:
Hellen Kurvora wrote:
That being said, several of the top tier t1 ships within the amarr lineup struggle against all races, not just minnies. A harby will never beat a well fit myrm and a maller will never beat a well fit thorax.


Read my lips :P

Amarr is Op at FLEET COMBAT, you know that, I know that we all know that. The whole approach amarr has (armor tanked, slowish, ridiculous range and dps) means it's a beast in fleet combat and less good at solo pvp. Again, apart from a very few ships (omen needs PG and as said maller/proph need to be missile based) there is nothing wrong with amarr, just don't try to use them in a scenario that they don't do well in. All races (bar Minnie) have this issue.

There's things Amarr isn't good at, which is GOOD and as it SHOULD be. Go talk to a megathron pilot about how well he does in fleets, or Caldari BS pilot for that matter. Have a look as the dps a caracal does and the limitations the Moa has or how about the Eagle or Cerb. Gallente STILL isn't any good and Amarr is STILL much better in most respects (mostly due to silly range on pulses/scorch).

Stop complaining about the few things Amarr isn't good at because they're damn well OP in everything else and there's 2 other races who have far more issues.


I get your point, man, I really do. I know Amarr are bad solo, but I don't see how they are that great in a fleet either. So scorch gives them decent range. Caldari missle boats have twice the range and at scorch range aren't doing much difference in terms of dps. Well I mean flight time does hurt the dps a bit, but its still pretty similar.

Lets put it this way, Harby gets about 21km with scorch, doing about xray damage. Blaster ferox with long range t2 ammo gets about 15ish km and does comparible damage. Gallente can hit at about 11 or 12 with long range ammo but do more damage than scorch at that range by far. I don't see how amarr is doing much thats better. Scorch gets decent range, but the damage is not that great due to the damage type.

the only way I can see amarr ships being useful is to have 10 baddons warp in using scorch to alpha ****. But if thats the only way to make use of their ships, thats pretty limited as far as playing goes
Hellen Kurvora
HC - Degc
#73 - 2011-12-02 17:29:48 UTC
Captain Alcatraz wrote:
Hellen Kurvora wrote:
Does anyone else agree with me?


No

Ohh, you're that guy that tries to be witty on forums for laughs.
Liam Mirren
#74 - 2011-12-02 17:54:17 UTC
Hellen Kurvora wrote:


Lets put it this way, Harby gets about 21km with scorch, doing about xray damage. Blaster ferox with long range t2 ammo gets about 15ish km and does comparible damage. Gallente can hit at about 11 or 12 with long range ammo but do more damage than scorch at that range by far. I don't see how amarr is doing much thats better. Scorch gets decent range, but the damage is not that great due to the damage type.


Ferox, Brutix, Hurricane (armor), harbinger comparison, realistic fits with T2 range ammo, not counting drones.

And yes, blue is the Harb so I really don't see what you're on about.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.

Fix My Lasers
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2011-12-02 17:56:28 UTC
You know, everyone can say Amarr this good and that great in fleet! Or even Amarr rocks because Caldari sucks! Anything!
Where are the facts?!


Let's say I'm a carebear like 80% or even 90% of people in this game and I don't give a sh*t about fleet combat or any pvp.
Why my lasers suck at pve?! Why guristas and angels have some uber EM resist and I happend to be bound to that type of damage on almost every good PvE ship?
Why other 3 races rock to juice in PvE and my race doesnt?!

Bring back Blaze and Lux crystals! http://eve.battleclinic.com/item/i12812-Blaze-L-details.html http://eve.battleclinic.com/item/i12832-Lux-L-details.html

John Nucleus
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#76 - 2011-12-02 18:02:27 UTC
The Punisher should have a bonus to lower the requirements of laser. AC requirements are so low compare to Lasers that most people will use AC in order to fit a bigger buffer. Use Medium Pulse Laser and it's pretty much the only thing you'll be able to fit.


I'd like a crystal that does primarly Therm damage to give me a bit more flexibility.


Retribution needs to trade an high slot for a second mid slot. Any ship made for pvp should have at least 2 mid slots.

My 2 cents.
Gnidex
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#77 - 2011-12-02 18:27:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Gnidex
Since we all love this spreadsheet game here another one you lads saying that amarr are fine need to see:
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Item_Database:Ammunition_&_Charges:Frequency_Crystals:Standard_Crystals:Medium

Check the base shield/armor damage statistics. It seems that lasers do half the base damage to armor when compared to shields and that is, imho, the biggest drawback when it comes to these lovely beams of death.

Also, keep in mind that lasers(pulses) have the highest fitting requirements out of all turrets, highest cap usage, highest number of different ammo types (which all give you a separate optimal) but curiously still stuck with mostly em damage, poor tracking (lowest of all close range turrets) etc...

If you'r flying a harb with heavy pulses (used extensively in the thread as an example) then all a faster (almost all of them are) opponent needs to do is get into a 2km or less orbit and you won't be able to hit the guy. And then you'r stuck with not hitting **** and having a measly 800mm plate on.

So, the problems with amarr are the lasers and their fitting requirements, cap use, lack of high thermal damage crystals and quite ****** tracking.
Lil Nippy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#78 - 2011-12-02 18:29:42 UTC
This thread is plagued by far too many EFT warriors.
Caulk H0lster
Kazakh Ministry of Wealth Redistribution
Brack Regen
#79 - 2011-12-02 18:35:34 UTC
Lil Nippy wrote:
This thread is plagued by far too many EFT warriors.


Furthermore EFT warriors with crappy fitting skills.
Karn Dulake
Doomheim
#80 - 2011-12-02 18:35:38 UTC
Ok here is my thoughts that no one will ever read

I fly almost exclusively Amarrian and amarrian guns are built for shield tankers

Amarr tech 1 sub battleship is pretty sucky. But the punisher is the best tech 1 frigate in the game when fitted with projectiles. Ive seen to many frigate tourneys to know this. the rifters cannot stand up to them

1. Navy slicer is a first rate ship and is one of the few ships that can kill a pre nerf Dram with ease

2. The Amarrian Battleships are probably the best in the game. Range and massive dps combined


Amarr ships really shine once you get to tech II

The pilgrim and curse and the best cruiser hulls in the game. I can kill anything sub capital in one (apart from a well fitted drake)

The Guardian is the best logi ship in the game


Lastly the Nightmare is the best Mission boat/ pvp battleship in the game. Its the only ship that can fit the equivilant of 10 Tachs and 4 heat sinks with exceptional tracking. It does around 25-40% more DPS than an Abaddon. Nothing else can match it. And ive never lost a duel in mine (mach, drake, Tengu all comers beaten)
I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion.