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Proposed Industry Redesign is FUBAR. Re-redesign!

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Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#21 - 2014-05-02 16:38:21 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Load it up, start job... it empties out. Fill it up again, start job, it empties out.... repeat to start all my jobs. No different filing the same array 10 times or filling 10 different arrays one time each... except the 10 arrays take more power/cpu. To deliver, reverse the process. Deliver, remove items, deliver, remove items, deliver.... No difference between emptying one array 10 times, or 10 arrays one-time... except less travel time.


So in other words you think that good gameplay involves shovelling resources into a hungry furnace like one of the engineers on the Titanic used to shovel coal.

No thanks. It's like you're standing outside a five-star hotel with an award-winning restaurant, and you're complaining that there's no point in setting up your tent and sleeping bag in the car park and cooking some hot dogs over the fire. If you really, REALLY want to do that, then go right ahead, you have that right. but why should slumming it confer any particular advantage?

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2014-05-02 16:39:33 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Kristalll wrote:
OP is stupid.

CCP have said that POS modules for industry will be getting bonuses to make them still worthwhile.


Those proposed bonuses themselves become problematic.

Time bonus risks making T2 BPO more profitable, something CCP Grayscale indicates he does not want to do.

Material efficiency bonus..... see above.

CCP still not sure how to implement a reason for you to have muti-facilities discount. Would need to not be exploitable... online/start jobs/offline. Would be having a bunch of labs lower your copy costs? Too many things to think about, and will be complicated to understand. CCP Grayscale already likes the idea of pseudo bringing back slot concept by exempting POS mod from fees for first x jobs where X is "lines".

I am just taking that one tiny step further and bringing pseudo-line count back as a mechanism for cost scaling that is easier to understand than square root of local usage ratio to universal usage....

And un-breaking a lot of the other things they break with proposed changes (NPC standings, delay start for better cost, reason to have POS with many of same facility type).


you do realize that in order to use a POS, you'll need the BPO in the POS array, right?

**** putting a T2BPO in a POS array.



Yes I do realize this. But a super hardened high sec large POS with a single lab would be formidable, especially with 24 hour notice to war dec start.

If you do not move BPO to POS, then will actually take a hit to production because slower manufacturing based on POS build speed bonuses that have existed.


Of cource, all this stems from not understand or not thinking through full impact of what seem to be minor changes. In addition to infinite slots, other things not thought through.

1) Not thinking though the "no remote" changes impacts of corp theft (no lock down) and T2 BPO production.

2) CCP wanting to move to BPC based manufacturing, and dropping copy times to at or below build time.
3) Wanting 2, without it becoming cop start hell, so offering to increase max runs.
4) Offering 3, without thinking about impact on invention and seeming to not have realized copy time is not linear.

5) making a 100 run BPC 100x as expensive a ME on same BPO?
6) Very long research times, without thinking about a partial research tracking system to allow that research to be done in pieces.

6) Not thinking about impact of moving other items input to regular inputs, without thinking about the impact on -4 (or -40 post changes to research) invented BPC.


But.... I'm not trying to address those other issues here. Just the infinite slot issue and the way too complicated cost scaling.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2014-05-02 16:48:16 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Load it up, start job... it empties out. Fill it up again, start job, it empties out.... repeat to start all my jobs. No different filing the same array 10 times or filling 10 different arrays one time each... except the 10 arrays take more power/cpu. To deliver, reverse the process. Deliver, remove items, deliver, remove items, deliver.... No difference between emptying one array 10 times, or 10 arrays one-time... except less travel time.


So in other words you think that good gameplay involves shovelling resources into a hungry furnace like one of the engineers on the Titanic used to shovel coal.

No thanks. It's like you're standing outside a five-star hotel with an award-winning restaurant, and you're complaining that there's no point in setting up your tent and sleeping bag in the car park and cooking some hot dogs over the fire. If you really, REALLY want to do that, then go right ahead, you have that right. but why should slumming it confer any particular advantage?



You sound like one of those people that would say they would never be a miner and do nto understand why anyone would. However, there are, in fact, tens or maybe hundreds of thousands of active accounts dedicated to mining.

What you call shoveling fuel into the furnace like a engineer (really, they were called boiler tenders) on the Titanic, others are surely going to call harvesting, building, operating, plaiting your flag to claim a little bot of space, even if it is just the orbit arouund a high sec moon.

And the choice should have legitimate trade off so that either option is valid. Ease of play with lower profit, or some more work but higher profits. That is the type of game play that CCP says it is interested in. And, the player driven market, balancing fuel costs, station overtime fees, output profit margins, should be the mechanism that determins those trade-offs.

CCP should avoid situations where one choice has all (or almost all) the benefits, cheaper, easier, safer, unlimited, etc.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#24 - 2014-05-02 16:53:58 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
And the choice should have legitimate trade off so that either option is valid. Ease of play with lower profit, or some more work but higher profits. That is the type of game play that CCP says it is interested in. And, the player driven market, balancing fuel costs, station overtime fees, output profit margins, should be the mechanism that determins those trade-offs.


...you make a good point there. Alright, consider me persuaded.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Velicitia
XS Tech
#25 - 2014-05-02 17:07:48 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
Kristalll wrote:
OP is stupid.

CCP have said that POS modules for industry will be getting bonuses to make them still worthwhile.



The refining arrays alone are straight up better than stations now, even in hisec (station base = 50, refining array = 52; low and null get the intensive which starts out at 54%).

Compression arrays for all the sec space ...



While excellent changes, neither of these require POS be up full time. I can put it up for a couple hours, refine/compress... then pack it up and put it away.

Your point about manufacturing and research is the key point to keeping a POS up more than a couple hours for a specific short-term project.


wait, what? Why do you assume that I wouldn't have my POS up 24/7?

it's not "just" for refining you know.

And furthermore, CCP still (afaik) haven't actually said what "differences" that a POS mfg array is gonna have -- just that they're also now using the same "install the job" maths ... which I assume would be "taxes" sent back to the owning corp, rather than straight ISK sinks (i.e. "taxes" sent back to Aliastra or Deep Core Mining).

So, really, there's no net loss there, unless CCP makes POS slots "Public" (utilizing the same code as POCOS for storage) and then your taxes are going to a player instead of to /dev/null.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2014-05-02 17:54:17 UTC
Velicitia wrote:

Why do you assume that I wouldn't have my POS up 24/7?

it's not "just" for refining you know.



That is the concern in the devblogs comments. What is that other use?

Velicitia wrote:

And furthermore, CCP still (afaik) haven't actually said what "differences" that a POS mfg array is gonna have -- just that they're also now using the same "install the job" maths ... which I assume would be "taxes" sent back to the owning corp, rather than straight ISK sinks (i.e. "taxes" sent back to Aliastra or Deep Core Mining).

So, really, there's no net loss there, unless CCP makes POS slots "Public" (utilizing the same code as POCOS for storage) and then your taxes are going to a player instead of to /dev/null.



There is a ton they do not know, because they are still scrambling to come up with a design. 3 bonus to ME, to lower material needs 3%., which a couple days ago was 5%, until they decided they need the 5% for upgraded outpost because with infinite slots, they can no longer use the "more slots" as a bonus.

Mad scramble to figure out design ramifications of slot removal....

So, resolve it by keeping the concept of max lines, just make it a cost factor rather than hard limit.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#27 - 2014-05-02 17:56:37 UTC
Oh hey it did get moved after all.

Called it.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#28 - 2014-05-02 18:00:49 UTC
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
Until T2BPO are removed the only new players who want to enter industry are self-masochists. Any re-design of industrry that does not have the removal of T2BPO as the first bullet point one is futile.

this completely

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2014-05-02 18:09:48 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Oh hey it did get moved after all.

Called it.


And this post.... these posts... will be deleted for discussing moderation, which is not allowed.

And still you make posts, knowing they will be deleted.

And still, "a fried" puts posts in places where he knows they will be moved from.

For every rule, here is a loophole.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#30 - 2014-05-02 19:04:32 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Velicitia wrote:

Why do you assume that I wouldn't have my POS up 24/7?

it's not "just" for refining you know.



That is the concern in the devblogs comments. What is that other use?


Manufacturing (yes, deal with it)
Safe Spot
Research/copy slots (although does require putting a BPO in the POS)
Keeping "my" moon.

Same things that POS have always been used for (well, save for Sov, which they're not used for anymore)

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2014-05-02 20:17:00 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Velicitia wrote:

Why do you assume that I wouldn't have my POS up 24/7?

it's not "just" for refining you know.



That is the concern in the devblogs comments. What is that other use?


Manufacturing (yes, deal with it)
Safe Spot
Research/copy slots (although does require putting a BPO in the POS)
Keeping "my" moon.

Same things that POS have always been used for (well, save for Sov, which they're not used for anymore)


Perhaps I should have clarified. What are purposes of a high sec POS post announced changes.

Manufacturing: unlimited slots at stations with fees 10% of 1-15% higher than POS, not counting the POS fuel.

Safe Spot:: 100s of millions a month for a safe?

Research: unlimited research in stations

Why keep a moon that has no particular value?
Velicitia
XS Tech
#32 - 2014-05-02 20:26:24 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Velicitia wrote:

Why do you assume that I wouldn't have my POS up 24/7?

it's not "just" for refining you know.



That is the concern in the devblogs comments. What is that other use?


Manufacturing (yes, deal with it)
Safe Spot
Research/copy slots (although does require putting a BPO in the POS)
Keeping "my" moon.

Same things that POS have always been used for (well, save for Sov, which they're not used for anymore)


Perhaps I should have clarified. What are purposes of a high sec POS post announced changes.

Manufacturing: unlimited slots at stations with fees 10% of 1-15% higher than POS, not counting the POS fuel.

Safe Spot:: 100s of millions a month for a safe?

Research: unlimited research in stations

Why keep a moon that has no particular value?


well, limiting it specifically to "hisec" does remove the need for safes ... but then again, not all of us live in hisec, do we?


As for the mfg slots -- oh hey, that Abaddon you wanna build costs ~7.5m or so per ship in install costs, which is immediately destroyed because ISK Sink. Unless they're ALSO doing that to a POS ... well, there's some savings.

Not to mention the typical time savings ... and some extra ME savings now ...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2014-05-02 20:36:01 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Velicitia wrote:

Why do you assume that I wouldn't have my POS up 24/7?

it's not "just" for refining you know.



That is the concern in the devblogs comments. What is that other use?


Manufacturing (yes, deal with it)
Safe Spot
Research/copy slots (although does require putting a BPO in the POS)
Keeping "my" moon.

Same things that POS have always been used for (well, save for Sov, which they're not used for anymore)


Perhaps I should have clarified. What are purposes of a high sec POS post announced changes.

Manufacturing: unlimited slots at stations with fees 10% of 1-15% higher than POS, not counting the POS fuel.

Safe Spot:: 100s of millions a month for a safe?

Research: unlimited research in stations

Why keep a moon that has no particular value?


well, limiting it specifically to "hisec" does remove the need for safes ... but then again, not all of us live in hisec, do we?


As for the mfg slots -- oh hey, that Abaddon you wanna build costs ~7.5m or so per ship in install costs, which is immediately destroyed because ISK Sink. Unless they're ALSO doing that to a POS ... well, there's some savings.

Not to mention the typical time savings ... and some extra ME savings now ...



Only 60-70% live high sec.

The 7.7 million from the DevBlog assumes people won't change to avoid fees, and yes, 7 million of the 7.7 million would apply to POS in that same system.

The ME 2 bonus, 2 million mins on 100 million ISK build, is much bigger discount than the fees, but that is still 50 BS on a small, 100 BS on medium or 200 BS on large, just to cover fuel cost.

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