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Dev Blog: Team Up: Industry Work Teams

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Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#241 - 2014-04-30 14:58:05 UTC
I don't see the point of teams. A system with teams will attract other builders. This will increase the cost of build slots (as per a previous dev blog). Any benefit from having the team will be cancelled out by increased slot costs. So what will the point of it be? The only way to profit from it will be to constantly move to quiet systems and bid for teams. Who's going to factor in the tedium factor as an opportunity cost? I certainly will. No, it won't be worth the trouble.

I think CCP decided to release these blogs in order of increasing silliness. I can't wait for the next one.
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#242 - 2014-04-30 14:58:16 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Zakarumit CZ wrote:
I keep reading this again and again and I am not sure if I inderstand those changes.
So the ME % bonus means I need less materials for manufacturing?
The TE bonus means I will manufacture faster?
Or does those bonuses apply only to the install fee from the previous blog? And how? I remember seeing a team bonus mupliplyer out there, but here in blog is ME and TE bonus...whats that?
Are there going to be teams giving bonuses to manufacturing, ME research, TE research, copying? I think it was mentioned out there. What ME and TE means for each of those? Does it mean we need less materials for research? That sound silly, as research already doesnt need almost any materials.
Team has got 4 members. So when I have 4 members with same narrow bonus to manufacturing of 1 ship type and every of them has lvl 5, does it mean I am going to build the ship 4*5=20% cheaper? Seems strange.

Can someone please make some examples how exactly is this going to work for manufacturing, ME/TE research, copying etc? Thanks guys


The team can give a bonus similar to what you get from the facility you're using or the research level of your blueprint, so yes, less materials needed and/or faster manufacturing time.

As team members cannot share a specialty, the maximum ME bonus is 7.5% and maximum TE bonus is 15% (but never both at the same time).



How are the ME/TE bonuses planned to stack at this point? 10% ME + 7.5% ME (team) + 2% ME (PoS) = 19.5% material savings from the new base?
CCP SoniClover
C C P
C C P Alliance
#243 - 2014-04-30 14:59:01 UTC
Zakarumit CZ wrote:

Thanks. So the team bonuses apply ONLY for manufacturing and not for research of blueprints, invention, reverse engineering etc?
What if I have already ME 10 BPO ? Am I going to receive team bonus as well, for example another -4% of materials?


There are teams for different activity, i.e. manufacturing team, research team, etc. Not all will be available in the summer release, but will be added later (though maybe not reverse engineering).

The bonus from the teams comes on top of any other bonuses you have, so having a fully researched blueprint does not hamper the effectiveness of the team.
Innominate
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#244 - 2014-04-30 15:00:04 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
There are teams for different activity, i.e. manufacturing team, research team, etc. Not all will be available in the summer release, but will be added later (though maybe not reverse engineering)..


Is there any reason we should believe this given the long track record of the exact opposite happening?
Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#245 - 2014-04-30 15:00:47 UTC
Can you confirm either way if 'escrow' for losing bids is lost or fractionally taxed in any form?

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege. 
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#246 - 2014-04-30 15:04:29 UTC
Loraine Gess wrote:

How are the ME/TE bonuses planned to stack at this point? 10% ME + 7.5% ME (team) + 2% ME (PoS) = 19.5% material savings from the new base?


Whatever it is it will be precisely cancelled by the slot cost increase from the popularity of your system having a team. Not that you can predict what that'll be of course. No. It'll be completely unpredictable, which is precisely the opposite of what anyone running a business wants.
Cultural Enrichment
Jenkem Puffing Association
#247 - 2014-04-30 15:05:04 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Loraine Gess wrote:

How are the ME/TE bonuses planned to stack at this point? 10% ME + 7.5% ME (team) + 2% ME (PoS) = 19.5% material savings from the new base?


Whatever it is it will be precisely cancelled by the slot cost increase from the popularity of your system having a team. Not that you can predict what that'll be of course. No. It'll be completely unpredictable, which is precisely the opposite of what anyone running a business wants.

And it's exactly what anyone playing a game wants.
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#248 - 2014-04-30 15:06:59 UTC
Even though I originally expected the 'Teams' part of the changes to be about capsuleers working together in Industry I do like the ideas presented in this 'Teams' dev blog.

I'm not that keen on some parts of the previous Industry blogs though. Personally I feel the POS system should be fixed first, and probably the Corporation/Alliance Roles & Permissions as well before all the current proposals are implemented. CCP is all up in the air over how manufacturing & research is going to work on POSes.

It does seem overall that CCP have made the biggest clanger so far with these changes to Industry. I just pray they don't start looking at adding similar complications and additional taxes to the way mining of ore works next. Cry

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#249 - 2014-04-30 15:07:06 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Loraine Gess wrote:

How are the ME/TE bonuses planned to stack at this point? 10% ME + 7.5% ME (team) + 2% ME (PoS) = 19.5% material savings from the new base?


Whatever it is it will be precisely cancelled by the slot cost increase from the popularity of your system having a team. Not that you can predict what that'll be of course. No. It'll be completely unpredictable, which is precisely the opposite of what anyone running a business wants.



A 7.5% ME savings, not available anywhere else, is more than enough to overcome even the highest projected build cost rate.


Also the popularity of my system having a team? There's a lot of those. 4000 teams. I think my system will not be the only one with one, or more.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#250 - 2014-04-30 15:08:47 UTC
+1 for an API detailing the current teams operating in New Eden. Not sure if this was already suggested, but this would be a great thing to toss on CCP FoxFour's gigantic, coruscating backlog.

To all those people who think that teams are too confusing, just remember -- they're OPTIONAL. If the concept hurts your ickle heads, just don't use them. Those of us with the big kid britches want to be able to optimize for this sort of dynamic system.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
TheButcherPete
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#251 - 2014-04-30 15:15:44 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Zakarumit CZ wrote:

Thanks. So the team bonuses apply ONLY for manufacturing and not for research of blueprints, invention, reverse engineering etc?
What if I have already ME 10 BPO ? Am I going to receive team bonus as well, for example another -4% of materials?


There are teams for different activity, i.e. manufacturing team, research team, etc. Not all will be available in the summer release, but will be added later (though maybe not reverse engineering).

The bonus from the teams comes on top of any other bonuses you have, so having a fully researched blueprint does not hamper the effectiveness of the team.


You guys said that about making a marketplace for the little upgrades you pick up during the hacking minigame, I thought that was cool.

That never happened. You also said more were on the way.

[b]THE KING OF EVE RADIO

If EVE is real, does that mean all of us are RMTrs?[/b]
Drone 16
Holy Horde
#252 - 2014-04-30 15:16:53 UTC
If you win the auction will there be the option of declining the help and having the team secretly sabotage the next bidder down (slow work etc)? The second place bidder will think they won and accept the corrupt team.

This is Eve after all Twisted

It puts the peanutbutter on itself or it leaves the bonus round... - E1's greatest Hits
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#253 - 2014-04-30 15:17:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Victoria Sin
Loraine Gess wrote:

Also the popularity of my system having a team? There's a lot of those. 4000 teams. I think my system will not be the only one with one, or more.


4000 teams. What's the point if there are so many? It doesn't make any sense at all. And for a 7.5% bonus? Whether that's worth it or not depends on how much the team costs doesn't it. You have no idea what the bids will be. It seems to me that people will bid up to but no further than whatever their break-even on the team is.

Totally crazy.
Firvain
Wildly Inappropriate
Wildly Inappropriate.
#254 - 2014-04-30 15:18:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Firvain
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
What are the sort of broad/narrow specialties when it comes to non-ships (or are ships the only thing that teams boost)? How narrow or broad are they (e.g. is narrow like "small lasers", "lasers" or "mega beam laser IIs only" and is broad like "mods", "armor mods" or "active armor taking mods")?


The teams cover everything possible to manufacture, the Ship type was just used as an example. To give you a bit better idea for the specialties, there are 135 of them total (40 broad, 95 narrow). An example is Armor, a broad specialty. It has three narrow specialties under it - Armor Active Modules, Armor Passive Expanders and Armor Passive Resistance.


Will there be a full list of all 135 of them somewhere?


Edit; nvm you already confirmed that thats coming
Rastlor
Torpedo Industries
#255 - 2014-04-30 15:18:38 UTC
On the whole I think these changes will be for the long term good of the game. Don't get me wrong there will be a period of adjustment (or profit taking for the wise). More elements of uncertainty will result in more opportunity, yes people will have to think a bit harder and weigh a few more variables, but meh.

The whole anyone can use the teams that are active in a system though, does strike as a little on the unfair side to those that have actually bid for the teams to take up their tools.

Could it not work along the lines of "I bid for the team thus I'm the owner of said team and I derive full benefit". The team though does have excess capacity that others can avail of for a small fee. The fee of which gets split proportionally to the initial owners that won the right to have the team in system.

Oh and for those that think Goons are going to move all industry to Null - your very wrong. I foresee CFC industrial ghettos in HS with some of the best teams in our future.

As has been mentioned previously the Office limit in stations should be revised upward or scrapped totally, after all your doing away with production lines, but denying corps the ability to open a office if all the slots are full. Office rental fees should of course still scale (perhaps you could apply a discount for Fraction standings to make them more relevant)?

Assuming you guys can get all this out the door in a stable workable build for the summer release I think you will have a solid base for a more dynamic and interesting industrial landscape.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#256 - 2014-04-30 15:22:54 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Loraine Gess wrote:

How are the ME/TE bonuses planned to stack at this point? 10% ME + 7.5% ME (team) + 2% ME (PoS) = 19.5% material savings from the new base?


Whatever it is it will be precisely cancelled by the slot cost increase from the popularity of your system having a team. Not that you can predict what that'll be of course. No. It'll be completely unpredictable, which is precisely the opposite of what anyone running a business wants.


Bingo.

Let's pretend you are in a planning meeting at GM for the 2016 production lines.

Me (CFO): OK, what do you expect our labour costs on the new Zoomer Hybrid will be.
You: (Chief Accoutant): We dunno, labour costs are all over the place, because we will be bidding with Toyota in Japan for some really crazy workers to improve production, on an ongoing basis, and we don't even know if we will get them.
Me: That is stupid, don't we have fixed contracts with these perople? But moving on. How does our production facility look like?
You: Well, we are not sure what our costs will be there too. If Chysler moves into town, and they could any moment without notification, our costs could go up an unknown amount, especially if Ford does too.
Me: Wait, what is this about Ford and Chrysler. Don't you have a clue what they are doing? And you are saying what other people do affects the quality of our own lines, and you have no clue if it will happen and by how much?

Me: I am starting to question your competence. How about we move to Alaska and set up shop there, and bit the bullet with the huge risks and costs of transporting materials, blueprints and cars to and from there. Surely then if we committ to such a massive, longterm venture, we can get a handle on our costs.
You: Sorry, we can't guarantee anything then either. We might be good for a couple weeks or months and then we don't know if we will be profitable or not again.

Me: Get out of my office, I am calling security.
Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#257 - 2014-04-30 15:25:58 UTC
Loraine Gess wrote:
Soniclover, I would ask if it's possible to retract bids on teams. If it so possible, then you will hand us an important tool to wage economic warfare.

And isn't that the point of the market? PVP? Twisted


PvP has risk. If you can retract your bid, there's no risk to you, therefore no PvP. Just trolling.
mkint
#258 - 2014-04-30 15:26:55 UTC
I haven't decided if this will dominate the playing field, or if it will be completely ignored. Or if it will end up being one of those "ah, crap I have to deal with teams again? That sucks." You know, added complexity and all that. Extra chores.

For some reason I'm really annoyed at the naming of the mechanic. Probably because it feels like it's trying to pretend that the lore means anything. Which it doesn't. It feels like the lore people are trying to interfere with the proper running of the game again, to the detriment of a game. There is no actual "team" involved in the process, because a team is people. These are just random numbers on a spreadsheet. And that distinction will confuse a hell of a lot of people on patch day, and no doubt become one of the most frequent questions in the rookie help chat for years to come.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#259 - 2014-04-30 15:27:06 UTC
DEFANDER wrote:
handige harrie wrote:
If teams have a minimum cost per Jump and teams can be used in Wormholes, how are bids from WH's calculated?


Closest wh entrance at the moment you bid.

Or the team have a special Super Ship they use to instantly travel across the universe.

According to my client, it takes 2,147,483,648 jumps to reach any wormhole system. So wormhole team employers will need to have a rather large wallet... Twisted

MDD
Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#260 - 2014-04-30 15:28:25 UTC
Max Kolonko wrote:
What is the cost of hiring a team compared to basic cost of running tbe job? How this scales with levels of team specialization? I cant find it in the blog.


Also, lets say the team reduces mineral cost for item by 5% and that item requires 5 units trit to build. Im runing a single run and have no benefit as 5*.95 is still 5, but if i run 4 runs of this item in the single job will it decrease the mineral cost from 20 to 19 (5*4*.95) or will it treat separate items requirment as base for calculation - round(5*.95)*4=20

The same question goes to all bonuses to manufacturing from pos modules and others bonuses to industry introduced in past industry blogs


Any chance for reply?

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