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Dev Blog: Team Up: Industry Work Teams

First post First post First post
Author
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#221 - 2014-04-30 14:45:21 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
Loraine Gess wrote:
Bad Bobby wrote:

Loyalty points? They do belong to an NPC corp don't they?




Problem: If LP scales with bid, I could conceivably big X billions of isk, and only have to effectively pay Y%*X billions of isk. Teams turn into a LP generation mechanic, not a manufacturer's dream.


If it doesn't scale... well you're not getting much of a reward.

I was just hoping to get a free cup of coffee for every billion I end up throwing at these things.

I was also thinking more about you getting LP for people using them, not for you hiring them.



...Actually that gives me an idea.


We've already put "cards" into the game to commemorate the AT teams. Given the proclivity to give the teams some lore background and appropriate names, we could introduce "cards" for them. No monetary value, but a collectable?


But then again after some number of months the supply of such things becomes bloated at an alarming rate.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#222 - 2014-04-30 14:45:31 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
When an auction ends, a notification is sent to those who made bids (both winners and losers), which includes a list of top contributing players to the system pool.


I don't really like the last part since your competitors shouldn't be freely given such information.
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#223 - 2014-04-30 14:45:53 UTC
Loraine Gess wrote:
Bad Bobby wrote:

Loyalty points? They do belong to an NPC corp don't they?




Problem: If LP scales with bid, I could conceivably bid X billions of isk, and only have to effectively pay Y%*X billions of isk. Teams turn into a LP generation mechanic, not a manufacturer's dream.


If it doesn't scale... well you're not getting much of a reward.

A bidder's bonus on efficiency maybe. So you may get 10% bonus instead of 7.5% or something. It'd give players a motivation to actually invest in bidding instead of leeching off of the bids of others.
Laendra
Universalis Imperium
The Bastion
#224 - 2014-04-30 14:46:34 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Galen Achu wrote:
Are the bids in the auction UI shown per player or per system? It seems more logical to display the total amount per system as the blog states: "When the auction ends, the solar system with the highest pooled bid wins."


It lists the systems with the highest bid pools. When an auction ends, a notification is sent to those who made bids (both winners and losers), which includes a list of top contributing players to the system pool.


but not a full list of winning bidders?
T3abag
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
#225 - 2014-04-30 14:47:04 UTC
Loraine Gess wrote:

Invention is not hard to price in the slightest. Some rather mid-level math (law of large numbers) and the formula means you have a base cost/run to work with, no matter how RNG spits out. Unless you're some peasant who cycles 3 invention jobs a week, or something. But then, this update, nor I, really care for you.


Yes and no. To figure out the RIGHT way to maximize profit of say a Damage Control II, you figure out the datacore cost. You then factor in meta item costs (for chance bonus), and THEN the decryptor costs (and the associated ME and PE bonuses).

That gives a you a pretty large matrix of possible choices, just to figure out how many blueprints you can make, how many runs you can potentially make (based on chance), and how long the produced items will make. However, you need to do this for roughly 32 different meta/decryptor combinations PER MODULE, and because there's a PE bonus (err, TE now) factor, you need to also figure out how much TIME it will take. So, assuming you have a handy tool or spreadsheet (I wrote one for myself), you could then factor all these together, and you can figure out how much profit per day you can make off a set of BPC's (this is basically what IPH does, albeit poorly) with the various combinations.

The math isn't hard, it's just a lot, because of all the combinations. Tools help (like IPH), but now you've got a whole new mechanic to figure out, with all of its combinations.

This profession is already complex enough as it is, before adding this whole team nonsense on top of it.
virm pasuul
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#226 - 2014-04-30 14:48:07 UTC
I'm very excited by all the meta opportunities this provides Big smile
You think Burn Jita causes tears?
Wait until the goons ransom ALL the teams in the new "Luddite Party Month" annual event.
Goons bid silly amounts for all the teams - the teams are not economically viable for anyone - you can outbid the goons but are guaranteed to make a loss overall. The goons send ALL the teams to one goon system, or even funnier all to Jita during Burn Jita as "independent observers for the Burn Jita event".
For 28 days Eve will drown in tears of outrage.

Personally I can't wait, this is going to be so much fun Big smile
This isn't sarcasm, it's going to happen, and I'm going to bust a gut laughing for 28 days solid.

CCP SoniClover
C C P
C C P Alliance
#227 - 2014-04-30 14:48:08 UTC
Zakarumit CZ wrote:
I keep reading this again and again and I am not sure if I inderstand those changes.
So the ME % bonus means I need less materials for manufacturing?
The TE bonus means I will manufacture faster?
Or does those bonuses apply only to the install fee from the previous blog? And how? I remember seeing a team bonus mupliplyer out there, but here in blog is ME and TE bonus...whats that?
Are there going to be teams giving bonuses to manufacturing, ME research, TE research, copying? I think it was mentioned out there. What ME and TE means for each of those? Does it mean we need less materials for research? That sound silly, as research already doesnt need almost any materials.
Team has got 4 members. So when I have 4 members with same narrow bonus to manufacturing of 1 ship type and every of them has lvl 5, does it mean I am going to build the ship 4*5=20% cheaper? Seems strange.

Can someone please make some examples how exactly is this going to work for manufacturing, ME/TE research, copying etc? Thanks guys


The team can give a bonus similar to what you get from the facility you're using or the research level of your blueprint, so yes, less materials needed and/or faster manufacturing time.

As team members cannot share a specialty, the maximum ME bonus is 7.5% and maximum TE bonus is 15% (but never both at the same time).
rsantos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#228 - 2014-04-30 14:50:08 UTC
Winter was harsh in Iceland... you guys need to get some sun rays in those heads ... Lol
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#229 - 2014-04-30 14:50:22 UTC
Are there any plans to allow DUST players to invade eve stations and kill the manufacturing teams?
CCP SoniClover
C C P
C C P Alliance
#230 - 2014-04-30 14:50:29 UTC
Laendra wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Galen Achu wrote:
Are the bids in the auction UI shown per player or per system? It seems more logical to display the total amount per system as the blog states: "When the auction ends, the solar system with the highest pooled bid wins."


It lists the systems with the highest bid pools. When an auction ends, a notification is sent to those who made bids (both winners and losers), which includes a list of top contributing players to the system pool.


but not a full list of winning bidders?


Currently, it only lists top 5, to keep the notification from being very long in some cases. The intel gathering aspect of this is intended.
Scaugh
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#231 - 2014-04-30 14:51:41 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
You will also be able to command the services of any team you want, or simply withhold the services from someone else, because of your infinite supply of ISK.

if i have an infinite supply of isk why am i trying to make more, and why am i willing to spend 2x to get something that will make me 1x




simplesssssss.......Because you can.
Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#232 - 2014-04-30 14:51:46 UTC
DEFANDER wrote:
This will be my last post.

It is very obvious that CCP does not even want to talk about all the problems that are already in the game, not to mention all the potential problems this exp. will/can bring.


Final point i want to make.

CCP wants to fix the game ? Fine.

1. Stop making it wors. (i see some fun ideas for this upcoming expansion - but the majority of them will bring a lot of "bad mojo")

2. When you are faced with a tough question - take the time to give an honest reply.

3. I see that CCP does not want to remove the tech moons from the game ( we all know why ). Then place 100 times more moons in High sec and WH space then.

Remove the power hold big blocks have on the game.

4. So much more to add, but i feel like it is just POINTLESS.


If CCP thinks this is the way to go, place the power in the hands of a few BARONS, instead of having a free universe in witch to play.


This would the time to step up and really RETHINK your entire strategy.


Your stuff, can I have?
CCP SoniClover
C C P
C C P Alliance
#233 - 2014-04-30 14:51:55 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Are there any plans to allow DUST players to invade eve stations and kill the manufacturing teams?


If there are, I'm not aware of them. Though we did discuss housing the teams in a structure in space that can be shot at.
Zakarumit CZ
Zakarum Industries
Forgers United
#234 - 2014-04-30 14:53:14 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Zakarumit CZ wrote:
I keep reading this again and again and I am not sure if I inderstand those changes.
So the ME % bonus means I need less materials for manufacturing?
The TE bonus means I will manufacture faster?
Or does those bonuses apply only to the install fee from the previous blog? And how? I remember seeing a team bonus mupliplyer out there, but here in blog is ME and TE bonus...whats that?
Are there going to be teams giving bonuses to manufacturing, ME research, TE research, copying? I think it was mentioned out there. What ME and TE means for each of those? Does it mean we need less materials for research? That sound silly, as research already doesnt need almost any materials.
Team has got 4 members. So when I have 4 members with same narrow bonus to manufacturing of 1 ship type and every of them has lvl 5, does it mean I am going to build the ship 4*5=20% cheaper? Seems strange.

Can someone please make some examples how exactly is this going to work for manufacturing, ME/TE research, copying etc? Thanks guys


The team can give a bonus similar to what you get from the facility you're using or the research level of your blueprint, so yes, less materials needed and/or faster manufacturing time.

As team members cannot share a specialty, the maximum ME bonus is 7.5% and maximum TE bonus is 15% (but never both at the same time).


Thanks. So the team bonuses apply ONLY for manufacturing and not for research of blueprints, invention, reverse engineering etc?
What if I have already ME 10 BPO ? Am I going to receive team bonus as well, for example another -4% of materials?
Iosue
Black Sky Hipsters
#235 - 2014-04-30 14:53:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Iosue
Salpun wrote:
I was hoping this would be a way for players to work togetherWhat?

The game needs a way to indicate i am building this for this persons other job so peoples completed jobs feed other peoples work in process, kinda like PI works.


It also needs a way for community world building so we can click on a object/ station that a player as requested the pilots around him help build and the players can see in game what parts are still needed and how long till the in space item is built.

This conversation might need to be moved over to the UI blog but it is a point that needed to be said.

Interesting new twist to the game. We just need a way to help them get well build into the game even if the team does not become playable again role players have a way they can combat the "slave labor" attitude of the feature.


^^ this, so much. i too was hoping we would get improvements in the way groups conduct industry activities. most industry currently takes place with individuals and their alts. would have been great to see changes that encourage teams of players working together to improve efficiency, reduce cost and/or make novel products.

edit: while i appreciate the time and effort spent on these changes, i get the feeling they are more directed at removing isk in circulation than actually improving industry or making it more cooperative.
Dramaticus
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#236 - 2014-04-30 14:53:40 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Are there any plans to allow DUST players to invade eve stations and kill the manufacturing teams?


If there are, I'm not aware of them. Though we did discuss housing the teams in a structure in space that can be shot at.


Lets just go ahead and call these structures 'Miniluv Beacon'

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#237 - 2014-04-30 14:53:41 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Sigh....

You guys at CCP really don't get it, do you.

What industrialists want, in real life or otherwise:

1. Cost certainty
2. Minimized risk for return (both in capital investment and getting shot at)
3. Minimizing non-productive time (you know, like what you are supposedly addressing with the UI changes)

In all 3 areas, you have managed to create the exact opposite.

Cost certainty is absolutely impossible with all these changes.
Risk of capital because of #1 just shot through the roof, and that does not even begin to deal with the real chances of getting shot at all the high choke systems that exist in the game.
And as for minimizing non-productive time, well, just like bad industrialists think that minerals they mine are free, you guys at CCP must think that all the time is free that is involved in guessing the profitability of a job, and then hauling materials, blueprints, finished products, and now, ultimately POS's, all over the universe.

A dynamic landscape for industrialists, expecting them to pull up stakes every now and then and move operations is one of the most stupid things to ever come out of CCP. Of course, given that the null sec cartels can establish and strictly control who builds, what they build, and when they build at every single null sec station under their control, this whole industry overhaul works perfectly for them. Gee, it is almost like they handed you the whole industrial blueprint and said "Here, implement this."

You seriously think this all these changes actually make industry MORE enjoyable for players?
You guys are so far out in left field, you can't even see home plate.


Optimizing towards boredom is not a good design direction, no matter how much you want it.


You what also is not boring?
Being in a firefight in Somalia.
Being stuck in traffic 10 minutes from the airport and missing a plane flight.
Sitting tied to a chair having your finger nails pulled out.

And what you have created , while certainly not boring, is flat out painful, and NOT fun.
You seem to have lost sight of that last part, so I will make it clear: You are tasked with making the game FUN.

Let's just see how the casual player base, the ones that don't even read the forums, and have no clue this is coming, react, shall we? But of course, you have already written them off as part of the subscription base that you want to keep.
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#238 - 2014-04-30 14:55:55 UTC
T3abag wrote:
Loraine Gess wrote:

Invention is not hard to price in the slightest. Some rather mid-level math (law of large numbers) and the formula means you have a base cost/run to work with, no matter how RNG spits out. Unless you're some peasant who cycles 3 invention jobs a week, or something. But then, this update, nor I, really care for you.


Yes and no. To figure out the RIGHT way to maximize profit of say a Damage Control II, you figure out the datacore cost. You then factor in meta item costs (for chance bonus), and THEN the decryptor costs (and the associated ME and PE bonuses).

That gives a you a pretty large matrix of possible choices, just to figure out how many blueprints you can make, how many runs you can potentially make (based on chance), and how long the produced items will make. However, you need to do this for roughly 32 different meta/decryptor combinations PER MODULE, and because there's a PE bonus (err, TE now) factor, you need to also figure out how much TIME it will take. So, assuming you have a handy tool or spreadsheet (I wrote one for myself), you could then factor all these together, and you can figure out how much profit per day you can make off a set of BPC's (this is basically what IPH does, albeit poorly) with the various combinations.

The math isn't hard, it's just a lot, because of all the combinations. Tools help (like IPH), but now you've got a whole new mechanic to figure out, with all of its combinations.

This profession is already complex enough as it is, before adding this whole team nonsense on top of it.



Then thank god half the decryptors are useless and you can simply download an application to do that all for you?


Step 1: Know that these decryptors are ****

Step 2: Click the buttons for the other decryptors

Step 3: Calculate


Damn, that was hard. Or you could be completely ignorant of mathematics and just run every set of decryptors, looking for the highest number. That isn't hard, the only way it could get easier is by putting up a sign saying "T2 INVENTION IS ACTUALLY KIND OF JUNK FOR THE EFFORT".
PDP11
Burroughs B6700
#239 - 2014-04-30 14:57:09 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Olari Vanderfall wrote:
Time saving is pretty much irrelevant for most items

I can see you are not a competent industrialist by this statement.


You fail to realize this is a sandpit where another person's aim may not fit your preconceived ideas. I'm manufacturing specific items for a group of players and time saving is irrelevant. Production is ahead of consumption so that faster production would just accumulates more items in a hangar. This Alt doesn't have to fund Plex purchases so currently operates on a low volume, small profit margin basically to fund skill book purchases.

Initially I'm unlikely to bid for any teams seeded to save time as this is irrelevant and delivers no benefit to a short production run industrialist. The 7 day auction period doesn't suit my short production runs (typically ~17 hours) and I only have a production run every other day. There doesn't appear to be any incentive for a small scale industrialist to bid for teams.

A one month team lifetime is too restrictive, plus I'm not going to contribute to solar system bids if I'm not guaranteed some return on the investment. My preference would be a player's bid guarantees receipt of a team benefit on a sliding scale in proportion to their contribution to the solar system's final bid. The higher the bid paid for a team the better medical care they can afford and their lifetime should be extended on the basis of diminishing returns on the final bid price. Cap the team lifetime at two months. If the final bid is too low then the team can't afford good medical care and the team life time can be less than one month, again a sliding scale with a minimum of two weeks for the life time. Cost of medical care could be varied across the universe and/or over time.

The fixed price for each solar system jump is too linear and there should be higher payments for crossing constellation and region boundaries.

I expect the major alliances will corner the market for the good teams and some may inflict short term market disruptions by bidding for all teams.
Scaugh
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#240 - 2014-04-30 14:57:34 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Galen Achu wrote:
Are the bids in the auction UI shown per player or per system? It seems more logical to display the total amount per system as the blog states: "When the auction ends, the solar system with the highest pooled bid wins."


It lists the systems with the highest bid pools. When an auction ends, a notification is sent to those who made bids (both winners and losers), which includes a list of top contributing players to the system pool.



ahh something which i missed in the blog, and quite possibly other have too. The bids for your system of choice are totalled / combined together or whatever ever way you want to put it..

So now not only do i know what system is successful, i now also know who is looking to benefit from it and grief accordingly