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Dev blog: Researching, the Future

First post First post First post
Author
Windspeed Khagah
New Eden Spacecraft Testing Labs
#561 - 2014-04-30 03:19:25 UTC
Loraine Gess wrote:
Windspeed Khagah wrote:
Okay, I'm just a little disappointed. As a small time industry focused person, I've been doing research/invention/copying at public installations. Sometimes I have to wait 2-3 month before I can get my 30 days of research in.

I've been researching my bpo's for over a year and have a bunch where I can now begin to make marginal profits. Notice "MARGINAL" profits. Now, just about anybody to get to where I got very quickly.

My "general complaint" is that I used to be an Explorer. I trained long and hard for the Deep-Space Probes and spent many months learning and perfecting exploration. But, I guess CCP thought it was too difficult, so they lowered the bar that I finally reached.

This is happening again. You make an interesting / challenging game and when everybody works up on that challenge, you lower the bar because it is too hard.

Any ideas what is going to happen to the Market? Now that better BPO's and BPC's are going to quickly come online. The market prices of items will drop due to less cost and more availability.

Okay, I'm fine with trying to make the Math simpler. But there are cost/benefit tools out there that will do this for you. If people can't be bothered to study cost / benefit, then they shouldn't be able to profit that those that do.




Ok how do I put this


Ok


You suck at industry. I can count, off the top of my head, a dozen T1 prints with minimal startup cost that turn a great profit with 3d or less of research.


Just because you are bad at something, does not mean the bar will be set around you. I'm not sure how waiting a few days for astrometrics V to finish training is "working long and hard" for anything, but I think I can safely discount your awful opinion judging by the amount of badness contained in your post already.


I'm not talking about T1 Rigs which are basically perfect. Done missiles -- almost all kinds, too. I'm talking about medium size modules. Yeah, I can build a ton of small stuff, but guess what --- they quickly reach market saturation and then become a sequence "0.01" market order revisions.

FYI - things that only take 3 ME's of research STILL takes 30-60 days in a public slot. And when are you done, you have just another BPO that everybody else has, as well. No real advantage to even begin to research them.




Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#562 - 2014-04-30 03:48:00 UTC
Windspeed Khagah wrote:
Loraine Gess wrote:
Windspeed Khagah wrote:
Okay, I'm just a little disappointed. As a small time industry focused person, I've been doing research/invention/copying at public installations. Sometimes I have to wait 2-3 month before I can get my 30 days of research in.

I've been researching my bpo's for over a year and have a bunch where I can now begin to make marginal profits. Notice "MARGINAL" profits. Now, just about anybody to get to where I got very quickly.

My "general complaint" is that I used to be an Explorer. I trained long and hard for the Deep-Space Probes and spent many months learning and perfecting exploration. But, I guess CCP thought it was too difficult, so they lowered the bar that I finally reached.

This is happening again. You make an interesting / challenging game and when everybody works up on that challenge, you lower the bar because it is too hard.

Any ideas what is going to happen to the Market? Now that better BPO's and BPC's are going to quickly come online. The market prices of items will drop due to less cost and more availability.

Okay, I'm fine with trying to make the Math simpler. But there are cost/benefit tools out there that will do this for you. If people can't be bothered to study cost / benefit, then they shouldn't be able to profit that those that do.




Ok how do I put this


Ok


You suck at industry. I can count, off the top of my head, a dozen T1 prints with minimal startup cost that turn a great profit with 3d or less of research.


Just because you are bad at something, does not mean the bar will be set around you. I'm not sure how waiting a few days for astrometrics V to finish training is "working long and hard" for anything, but I think I can safely discount your awful opinion judging by the amount of badness contained in your post already.


I'm not talking about T1 Rigs which are basically perfect. Done missiles -- almost all kinds, too. I'm talking about medium size modules. Yeah, I can build a ton of small stuff, but guess what --- they quickly reach market saturation and then become a sequence "0.01" market order revisions.

FYI - things that only take 3 ME's of research STILL takes 30-60 days in a public slot. And when are you done, you have just another BPO that everybody else has, as well. No real advantage to even begin to research them.









Stop making **** that nobody wants to buy


This is why you're a horrible industrialist
Tennoku
Mercury Nation
#563 - 2014-04-30 03:48:38 UTC
Apologies if this is in the thread already, or obvious from the blog. The blog gives an example of research time for a rank 1 bpo. Level 10 time is 256000 seconds. Is this the time to go from level 9 to 10, or level 0 to 10?
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#564 - 2014-04-30 04:39:50 UTC
I'm very concerned over the fact that we're about to see a x7 research time increase for certain items.

I did the numbers (baseline unskilled) for some of them and based on the rank 60 battleship BPO (e.g. Dominix) we're going from

~ 42 days for ME 10, to:
~306 days for ME 10%

That seems very harsh. I don't mind an increase, but a factor of 7 seems unwarranted.

I would ask that you revise your numbers so that the new times aren't quite so brutal. Perhaps lower ranks or a shorter baseline. 5d for perfect ME for ammo BPOs also seems kind of high. So 10 days total for perfect ME and TE under the new system for something where you might have dozens and dozens of ammo BPOs for all the different types. Expand that to modules and ships and industrialists won't have enough variety to address market fluctuations in demand and supply.
Jim Lopau
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#565 - 2014-04-30 04:52:01 UTC
The 100 levels instead of 10 argument is still just 10% divided into 100 steps, so you want to work with 10.0% instead of 10%. I don't see the gain in resolution (argued as shorter training steps) as that valuable to be honest and the 100% analogy will potentially make this more confusing, than clear.
Partial training, something like MP, seems like a possible idea, although it also clutters the info being presented.

One of the commented issues of the increased maxrun BPC's is invention.
Two possible solutions would be: one to make it possible to chain BPC's thereby removing issues with BPC limits, the other (probably more complex to do) is to allow no maxrun limits and have an invention job generate T2 BPC's based on how many full runs (using pre-patch numbers) the BPC's runs are divisible by.
With the first option this could also include offering two copying options on BPO's: single run with less than maxrun runs or 1 up to 30 days worth of maxrun BPC's. Delivery could be single bulk set or have them follow the normal build time (essentially chaining the copying process as well).

A lot of the changes look good and are going in the right direction, in my humble opinion
DireNecessity
Mayhem-Industries
#566 - 2014-04-30 06:02:00 UTC  |  Edited by: DireNecessity
“This has the advantage of everyone's blueprints staying the same or getting better, but the drawback that people with blueprints researched to really high levels will find that, while their blueprints are still generally getting better (i.e., will be actually perfect rather than just a reasonable approximation thereof), other blueprints which were less-well researched will have caught up with them.”

I suppose the desire to make everybody’s blueprints either stay the same or improve in the transition makes PR sense (Cool! No nerfs and lots of free efficiency upgrades. Players will approve.). Still, this approach does reward the modest researchers more than the heavy researchers.

Many modest researchers seem to be telling heavy researchers, “Heavy research was always stupid. Now it’s doubly stupid. Hah! Sucks to be you.”

Many heavy researchers, while disputing initial stupidity, are disturbed that they are now sitting on “over researched” blueprints and requesting refunds of some sort.

Presuming CCP doesn’t want to pick winners and losers via transition, at least a couple of changes have been suggested.

1) 100 ME levels instead of 10. This reduces the modest researcher transition benefit from sizable up to nearly 10% improvements to modest 1% improvements.

2) Instead of transitioning old ME levels to new ME levels, apply the (extrapolated) research time invested in a blueprint across the transition. Some blueprints may still end up being “over researched” but this will happen less often. Other (many?) blueprints may end up with lower post transition ME levels.

A few general thoughts on this:

a) It puzzles me that CCP would prefer to pick winners and losers in the transition to save ME levels rather than choosing to nerf everybody’s blueprints equally by transitioning time researched instead. It’s not a disaster to discover that a post transition blueprint is no longer as optimal as one would like. Just toss it back in the research bin.

b) It puzzles me that CCP is willing to choose winners and losers in order to cut down to a 10 level ME system rather than cutting down to a 100 ME level system from the previous “difficult to understand without wrapping your head around some reasonably non-trivial math” system. 100 isn’t that complex (most of the world measures with the metric system and everybody is familiar with percentages).

c) If CCP pursues avenues to mitigate generating winners and losers like those just explored, it will puzzle me when the (now rare) owners of “over researched” blueprints continue to demand refunds. You can’t please everybody.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#567 - 2014-04-30 09:07:46 UTC
Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler.

The Tears Must Flow

CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#568 - 2014-04-30 09:50:18 UTC
Tennoku wrote:
Apologies if this is in the thread already, or obvious from the blog. The blog gives an example of research time for a rank 1 bpo. Level 10 time is 256000 seconds. Is this the time to go from level 9 to 10, or level 0 to 10?


0 to 10.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#569 - 2014-04-30 10:03:03 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Tennoku wrote:
Apologies if this is in the thread already, or obvious from the blog. The blog gives an example of research time for a rank 1 bpo. Level 10 time is 256000 seconds. Is this the time to go from level 9 to 10, or level 0 to 10?


0 to 10.

Just to confirm, a rank 2 skill would simply multiply all the values by 2, and a rank 3 multiplying by 3, etc.?
Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#570 - 2014-04-30 10:06:07 UTC
People need to stop trying to meta this into a way to recoup their losses on months or years of over research.

If you have a cap component ME500 BPO, regardless of what you can sell BPC's for you would have made far more over all selling ME34 BPCs the whole time you were doing the following 466 ME levels regardless of the pitiful price difference you were able to scam out of people due to either them nor you or both understanding how ME reduction has worked previously.

I'd wager a lot of the people posting about this issue are realising their mistakes and crying, seeing this as an opportunity CCP will give them something for their folly. Just stop it, grow up and move on.

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege. 

Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#571 - 2014-04-30 10:09:13 UTC
Seith Kali wrote:
People need to stop trying to meta this.

Amusing that is, coming from a goon.
Uncle Shrimpa
Lap Dancers
Brothers of Tangra
#572 - 2014-04-30 10:20:51 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Tennoku wrote:
Apologies if this is in the thread already, or obvious from the blog. The blog gives an example of research time for a rank 1 bpo. Level 10 time is 256000 seconds. Is this the time to go from level 9 to 10, or level 0 to 10?


0 to 10.

Just to confirm, a rank 2 skill would simply multiply all the values by 2, and a rank 3 multiplying by 3, etc.?


yes

CCP Greyscale -Yup, we have data on what happens currently, but we're expecting those use patterns to change substantially when this release. There's a degree of "suck it and see" happening here :)

Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#573 - 2014-04-30 10:22:46 UTC
We could have made trillions if the T2 BPO copy speed wasn't addressed, you should be greatfull Blink

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege. 

Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#574 - 2014-04-30 10:40:46 UTC
Seith Kali wrote:
We could have made trillions if the T2 BPO copy speed wasn't addressed, you should be greatfull Blink

Yes, because we all know that the goons are holier than thouh when it comes to exploiting game mechanics. Also you should read the entire thread, earlier Weasilor stated that he had spent the whole day looking for viable T2 BPOs but couldn't get hold of any. ;)
GeeBee
Backwater Redux
Tactical Narcotics Team
#575 - 2014-04-30 10:42:28 UTC
Quintessen wrote:
I'm very concerned over the fact that we're about to see a x7 research time increase for certain items.

I did the numbers (baseline unskilled) for some of them and based on the rank 60 battleship BPO (e.g. Dominix) we're going from

~ 42 days for ME 10, to:
~306 days for ME 10%

That seems very harsh. I don't mind an increase, but a factor of 7 seems unwarranted.

I would ask that you revise your numbers so that the new times aren't quite so brutal. Perhaps lower ranks or a shorter baseline. 5d for perfect ME for ammo BPOs also seems kind of high. So 10 days total for perfect ME and TE under the new system for something where you might have dozens and dozens of ammo BPOs for all the different types. Expand that to modules and ships and industrialists won't have enough variety to address market fluctuations in demand and supply.


Its not just certain items, its everything.

Quintessen wrote:

Tennoku wrote:
Apologies if this is in the thread already, or obvious from the blog. The blog gives an example of research time for a rank 1 bpo. Level 10 time is 256000 seconds. Is this the time to go from level 9 to 10, or level 0 to 10?


0 to 10.


I'm a bit confused as to if this is correct or not, everything prior to this has been working as if its 9 to 10.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#576 - 2014-04-30 10:49:53 UTC
Ok after running a few examples myself, I think that the curve of progression is to steep.

I would think it is better to increase the time to train from ME 1 - 5 (which is currently higher), and then reduce the time to get from ME 6 - 10 (which is currently MUCH lower).
RaTTuS
BIG
#577 - 2014-04-30 11:08:47 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Tennoku wrote:
Apologies if this is in the thread already, or obvious from the blog. The blog gives an example of research time for a rank 1 bpo. Level 10 time is 256000 seconds. Is this the time to go from level 9 to 10, or level 0 to 10?


0 to 10.

make it go to 11 as we all know 11 is bigger than 10 so it's better ....
YKWIM

http://eveboard.com/ub/419190933-134.png http://i.imgur.com/kYLoKrM.png

Jim Lopau
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#578 - 2014-04-30 12:06:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Jim Lopau
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Ok after running a few examples myself, I think that the curve of progression is to steep.

I would think it is better to increase the time to train from ME 1 - 5 (which is currently higher), and then reduce the time to get from ME 6 - 10 (which is currently MUCH lower).

Remember that ccp is changing progression from a linear time cost and diminishing return to a escalating time cost and linear return. Had they applied the time costs from the current maximum costs and used a formulaic diminishing of time cost going from 10 - 0 they may have seen less overall unwanted growth in the maximum cost.
Rek Seven
Galactic Deep Space Industries
Warped Intentions
#579 - 2014-04-30 12:12:31 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
In the industry update, will we be able to select multiple BPC to run several invention jobs at once or will we still have to run each job individually?

If it's going to stay the same as it is now, you are doing it wrong CCP. There is no gameplay benefit to the current system and all it does is induce tedium and repetitive strain injury on the player base.


bump
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#580 - 2014-04-30 12:23:49 UTC
Jim Lopau wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Ok after running a few examples myself, I think that the curve of progression is to steep.

I would think it is better to increase the time to train from ME 1 - 5 (which is currently higher), and then reduce the time to get from ME 6 - 10 (which is currently MUCH lower).

Remember that ccp is changing progression from a linear time cost and diminishing return to a escalating time cost and linear return. Had they applied the time costs from the current maximum costs and used a formulaic diminishing of time cost going from 10 - 0 they may have seen less overall unwanted growth in the maximum cost.

The problem is players who already have a rank 60 BPO for example at ME 10, will have spent only 25% of the time for players after this change to get the same results. This would be alleviated quite a bit by introducing a 100 level system instead of 10.

So Greyscale, you need to tell me if this 100 level system is coming or not so that if not I can exploit this as much as possible by getting lots of ME 10 BPOs. ;)

I'm sure that is what goons are probably doing right now.