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Finding good fights: FW vs. piracy
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#21 - 2014-04-29 19:46:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
And then you keep pulling numbers comparing a 20 man corp to one more than five times as large and saying it proves your 50% rule (but you don't try comparing your numbers to BLFOX with the same total kills divided by members math).

That or you could look at top killers for each corp as they are usually the most active PVPers:

http://eve-kill.net/?a=corp_detail&crp_id=321570&m=3&y=2014&view=pilot_kills

http://blfox.eve-kill.net/?a=corp_detail&crp_id=326312&m=3&y=2014&view=pilot_kills

http://eve-kill.net/?a=corp_detail&crp_id=289313&m=3&y=2014&view=pilot_kills

The FW pilots are doing fine I think when it comes to getting kills :p


I don't think the question is whether they are doing "fine". The question is which way gets more good fights.

Looking at top killers will obviously be biased against smaller corps. If you have a corp with 120 members you are more likely to have a few guys who do nothing but play eve 23/7.

But looking at that it seems XG alone accounts for about 1/6th of the kills for his entire 116 player corp! And the top 5 players of that corp account for more than half the kills of the entire 116 player corp!!! I suppose when he said "our guys" he wasn't referring to "the other" 111 players in his corp.

I was having trouble with your links but I finally got your killboard up. Yes you are doing as well as the pirate corp in number of kills per person. Based on those stats alone I would not say there was any reason to think piracy or fw is better. You are in a very nice corp.

IMO the bottom line is this:

If you like to gate camp and takes fights on gates or stations then fw will give you more kills. I also think FW corps tend to do a larger variety of pvp. But if you like to get fights in plexes then remaining neutral is better.

As to why that is take a look at my response to XG about the time it takes to reship and repair. If you are also interested in lp then you will probably want to sit on the plex but in my experience you won't get as much pvp that way. Also unless you are going to awox you have just limitted your targets a significant amount. These are inescapable facts that can cut down on the amount of pvp you get.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#22 - 2014-04-29 19:54:39 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
Bittervet detected.
I think somebody touched him in the Novice Outpost one too many times.



SmokinJs Arthie
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#23 - 2014-04-29 20:01:10 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
And then you keep pulling numbers comparing a 20 man corp to one more than five times as large and saying it proves your 50% rule (but you don't try comparing your numbers to BLFOX with the same total kills divided by members math).

That or you could look at top killers for each corp as they are usually the most active PVPers:

http://eve-kill.net/?a=corp_detail&crp_id=321570&m=3&y=2014&view=pilot_kills

http://blfox.eve-kill.net/?a=corp_detail&crp_id=326312&m=3&y=2014&view=pilot_kills

http://eve-kill.net/?a=corp_detail&crp_id=289313&m=3&y=2014&view=pilot_kills

The FW pilots are doing fine I think when it comes to getting kills :p


I don't think the question is whether they are doing "fine". The question is which way gets more good fights.

Looking at top killers will obviously be biased against smaller corps. If you have a corp with 120 members you are more likely to have a few guys who do nothing but play eve 23/7.

But looking at that it seems XG alone accounts for about 1/6th of the kills for his entire 116 player corp! And the top 5 players of that corp account for more than half the kills of the entire 116 player corp!!! I suppose when he said "our guys" he wasn't referring to "the other" 111 players in his corp.

I was having trouble with your links but I finally got your killboard up. Yes you are doing as well as the pirate corp in number of kills per person. Based on those stats alone I would not say there was any reason to think piracy or fw is better. You are in a very nice corp.

IMO the bottom line is this:

If you like to gate camp and takes fights on gates or stations then fw will give you more kills. I also think FW corps tend to do a larger variety of pvp. But if you like to get fights in plexes then remaining neutral is better.

As to why that is take a look at my response to XG about the time it takes to reship and repair. If you are also interested in lp then you will probably want to sit on the plex but in my experience you won't get as much pvp that way. Also unless you are going to awox you have just limitted your targets a significant amount. These are inescapable facts that can cut down on the amount of pvp you get.


It's just like Fight Club, "you decide your own level of involvement."
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#24 - 2014-04-29 20:11:56 UTC
There is some motivation for you to undock and fight enemy militia if they are running a plex in your home. If a pirate opens a plex? Not as much. They can't make you lose your home. I will engage pirates if they come into my plex. I will engage pirates if I'm in a fleet and we feel like it. I will engage pirates by myself if bored. Otherwise I'll just open a different plex and laugh if they can't get in. Or shoot them if they can. TL;DR - you can ignore pirates if you want to. Ignore enemy miltia at your own risk.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#25 - 2014-04-29 20:15:18 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Cearain wrote:
words...
This is a slow month. We're only going to have 3500 kills.

https://zkillboard.com/corporation/423280073/stats/

Hey let's look at these guys - the Black Rebel Rifter Club (75 players). Their top pilot has 292 kills this month out of 977 for 30% of the total. Suddenly 16% for the top pilot doesn't sound all that bad does it?
Players with more than 100 kills:
JUSTK (114 total): 452, 420, 381, 313, 297, 287, 276, 201, 183, 174... No. 20 = 104.

R1FTA(75 total): 292,155,107,102
R1FTA is one of the premier pirate low sec pirate corporations in all of New Eden. hmmm....

Tuskers(95 members, 1,607 kills): 353 (21% of kills from its leading killer), 215, 147, 115, 114
Tuskers is the No. 1 all time corporation on Battleclinic and is well-respected by all for their activity, etc...


Other inconsistencies in your post:

* We (and almost all FW corporations) don't take fights on gates or stations. Low-sec pirate corporations do that.

* Militia corporations fight in plexes and get more fights too. More *potential* targets might be good for a pirate, but more *practical* targets is better for militia. Why? Because militia members have more skin in the game and are therefore willing to risk more to engage an opposing militia.

* Your experience is not the experience of almost all FW pvp corporations

Hey did I mention that the Gallente Militia has more kills in the last 90 days (90k) than any alliance in the game? 35k MORE kills than second place Goonswarm. Not so bad, eh?

Edit: My bad. Caldari have 72k kills and Amarr have 62k kills. THEN Goonswarm at 57k.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#26 - 2014-04-29 20:24:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Cearain wrote:
I have no up to date perspective and am going to draw conclusions based on my intuition and cherry picked numbers



This old nonsense was almost forgivable when you were just a few months out of touch with current militia meta. But now you argue from a position something close to 2 years out of date.

This is your right, doesnt make you any more correct, if anything less so.

X Gallentius wrote:

Hey let's look at these guys - the Black Rebel Rifter Club (75 players). Their top pilot has 292 kills this month out of 977 for 30% of the total. Suddenly 16% for the top pilot doesn't sound all that bad does it?


The funny part is when he runs the numbers then from out of nowhere draws some ridiculous conclusion. Im not sure what problem one player being on 16% or 30% of kills in a corp presents.

All i know is that were about to be dealt some more numbers and told why that makes being a pie better even though there is no correlation.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#27 - 2014-04-29 20:40:38 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:

The funny part is when he runs the numbers then from out of nowhere draws some ridiculous conclusion. Im not sure what problem one player being on 16% or 30% of kills in a corp presents.
Your corp has like over 99% of its kills from one player.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#28 - 2014-04-29 20:45:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
X Gallentius wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:

The funny part is when he runs the numbers then from out of nowhere draws some ridiculous conclusion. Im not sure what problem one player being on 16% or 30% of kills in a corp presents.
Your corp has like over 99% of its kills from one player.


Leaving militia and going pie would fix that i guess.

But i like camping stations and gates too much to leave militia... lol


X Gallentius wrote:
SmokinJs Arthie wrote:
Everyone in system knows you're there.

But they weren't notified, so they won't undock. Somehow these pirate types are able to find fights without a notification system, but us militia guys can't.


Oh god, i just read up the thread. I forgot about Cearains notification idea. This dude draws non sequiturs and fixes non problems like no other poster!
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#29 - 2014-04-29 21:05:10 UTC
Yay! It's Psymn err, I mean Crosi.


XG I am not sure why you are posting about Black Rebel Rifter Club. I wasn't the one bragging about how many kills my corp gets. In fact I said I have been inactive and the corp might be as well. But thats ok keep posting whatever numbers make you feel better.

I gave my reasons why I think I got more fights staying outside of militia. If anyone cares to read what someone who was both neutral and in faction war after inferno has to say, they can consider it. If they just want opinions from people who haven't done both since the major changes in inferno then they can listen to you and Crosi.

BTW: I think Zarnak makes a good point. I think militias are somewhat more alert when they see an enemy in system rather than a neutral.







Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#30 - 2014-04-29 21:15:31 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
My corp and guys in my corp rack up tons more kills than pirate groups every month. I think it's because we're able to be "on station" 23/7 available for fights.
Quoting for truth - backed up by numbers in other posts.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#31 - 2014-04-29 21:15:34 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Yay! It's Psymn err, I mean Crosi.


XG I am not sure why you are posting about Black Rebel Rifter Club. I wasn't the one bragging about how many kills my corp gets. In fact I said I have been inactive and the corp might be as well. But thats ok keep posting whatever numbers make you feel better.

I gave my reasons why I think I got more fights staying outside of militia. If anyone cares to read what someone who was both neutral and in faction war after inferno has to say, they can consider it. If they just want opinions from people who haven't done both since the major changes in inferno then they can listen to you and Crosi.

BTW: I think Zarnak makes a good point. I think militias are somewhat more alert when they see an enemy in system rather than a neutral.



Psy is my main, crosi is just my forum alt.

You are correct, you have barely any experience from 2 perspectives, we have vastly more up to date and practical experience from one while also having no difficulty extrapolating the realities of living outside FW.

Nothing wrong with being neutral, nothing wrong with your stats. Just the dishonest way you use them. Like dividing kills by total players in JUSTK with no understanding of their structure in terms of cyno/pos/deplexing alts and inactives.

To measure activity you really have to look at active players. And in that respect, as much as it may confuse you, conflict drivers in militia create a lot of activity for those of us online.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2014-04-29 21:45:44 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Starbuck05 wrote:
Beeing in fw you will have less opponents to shoot but will benefit from making money .

My corp and guys in my corp rack up tons more kills than pirate groups every month. I think it's because we're able to be "on station" 23/7 available for fights.

my alt made 34 kills for few hours this Sunday.... Participated in Burn Jita (killing criminals).....

(more kills doesn't mean more pvp)

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#33 - 2014-04-29 22:08:42 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Starbuck05 wrote:
Beeing in fw you will have less opponents to shoot but will benefit from making money .
My corp and guys in my corp rack up tons more kills than pirate groups every month. I think it's because we're able to be "on station" 23/7 available for fights.
my alt made 34 kills for few hours this Sunday.... Participated in Burn Jita (killing criminals)..... (more kills doesn't mean more pvp)
Especially for pirate groups that camp high sec gates 23/7, or high sec griefing corporations.
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#34 - 2014-04-29 22:34:37 UTC
Cearain wrote:
I simply posted a pirate corp that gets about 50% more kills per player than XGs faction war corp.



You need a huge active membership as a pirate corp to get more kills than an active fw corp.
If you divided total kill by active members - I would think XGals dudes get more kills than any pirates.

Having been pie for a little while and comparing what it is like compared to how fw was - We get much less pvp now as pirates.

As a pirate you cant engage on gates/stations in frigates or dessies due to guns + It seems more people run away cause 'ebil piwate'. No one has incentive or a need to chase us away from plexes/systems.

Just those factors alone have made a huge difference.
In general the pvp was also of much higher quality pvp when in fw.



https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#35 - 2014-04-29 22:45:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
IbanezLaney wrote:
Cearain wrote:
I simply posted a pirate corp that gets about 50% more kills per player than XGs faction war corp.



You need a huge active membership as a pirate corp to get more kills than an active fw corp.
If you divided total kill by active members - I would think XGals dudes get more kills than any pirates.

Having been pie for a little while and comparing what it is like compared to how fw was - We get much less pvp now as pirates.

As a pirate you cant engage on gates/stations in frigates or dessies due to guns + It seems more people run away cause 'ebil piwate'. No one has incentive or a need to chase us away from plexes/systems.

Just those factors alone have made a huge difference.
In general the pvp was also of much higher quality pvp when in fw.



Understandable, standby to be told why you are completely wrong. If you think your so called 'experience' is in any way a match for cearains baseless intuition and ignorance you have another thing coming!

It will take the form of 9 meaty paragraphs, including some stats and fallacious conclusions.

If were lucky he might elaborate on his masterplan to fix faction war!
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#36 - 2014-04-29 22:50:32 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:

Understandable, standby to be told why you are completely wrong. If you think your so called 'experience' is in any way a match for cearains baseless intuition and ignorance you have another thing coming!

It will take the form of 9 meaty paragraphs, including some stats and fallacious conclusions.

If were lucky he might elaborate on his masterplan to fix faction war!

IbanezLaney is just one guy with a skewed perspective on the matter. Roll
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#37 - 2014-04-30 02:58:54 UTC
Piracy in FW space is basically deciding that you will take sentries if you shoot anyone who isn't flashy, everyone is your enemy, everyone can shoot you without taking sentries (which allows a gang you would normally take on with your gang to split you up horribly since you can't all fight back, so you have to abandon whatever mate got tackled even though you could have totally taken that fight if it wan't on a gate) and you get absolutely no isk.

That said you should totally pick piracy.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Raptors Mole
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#38 - 2014-04-30 11:54:57 UTC
OP,

Back on track.......

Join FW but not a corp. Make isk and fight. Settle in for a bit then decide to either join a FW corp that you have met and get on with or go Pirate - again solo or with a corp that you like.

Lots of E-Peen willy waving goes on in FW - As this thread demonstrates. (Pirates are not immune to this)

Top tip - Very few Pirate types make isk from PvP, there are means of doing so in Low Sec.

Pew pew and have fun.

Raptors
Ding Bang Oww
Perkone
Caldari State
#39 - 2014-04-30 13:40:42 UTC
Lol Justified Chaos talking like they are actual PvPers :)

Because camping Tama gate and racking up noobs is PvP
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#40 - 2014-04-30 13:43:04 UTC
Ding Bang Oww wrote:
Lol Justified Chaos talking like they are actual PvPers :)

Because camping Tama gate and racking up noobs is PvP

I think you have the wrong corp there.
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