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Dev blog: The Price of Change

First post First post
Author
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#401 - 2014-04-29 21:11:47 UTC
Darin Vanar wrote:
You have basically given out all the benefits of having a POS to everyone and their alt in highsec, so you have to take away the drawback. You have basically turned highsec POSes into player owned housing. It serves no purpose in highsec



Ore compression array. Want to sell your ore to null, you will need one.

Perfect refine without grinding NPC standings.

AND, the 10%, I still think is huge. A reasonable sized corp should not have an issue turning billions of ISK worth of manufactured goods (not profit, gross) per month.

Once you are building at the POS, then you will want to be doing it from copies, so you get the alt-hell of kicking off copy jobs by the gazillions.

Yes, I know most people used their POS for slots, and those slots will now be unlimited in station. But, to say that a POS will have no purpose is a stretch.
Dibble Dabble
Capital Assets Inc
#402 - 2014-04-29 21:12:25 UTC
So another lets screw hi sec industry corps blog.

No thanks CCP not interested in this crap. POS's are down. Accounts not plex'd.

Just waiting for the next blog now, I am not expecting much love for hi-sec.






Valterra Craven
#403 - 2014-04-29 21:13:21 UTC
Korthan Doshu wrote:
There is an assumption here that it should not be the same logistical feat to have one or twenty people doing industry out of a starbase. The system-wide congestion numbers won't capture this limitation because it takes a much larger number of character jobs to meaningfully impact costs than one player or group will likely be able to bring to bear.


While I'm sure you'd like to think this would be possible, this type of thing likely won't happen in the new system because of one variable... storage. The main different between stations and POS is that stations have infinite storage and POS do not. POS will not be conducive to the type of infinite manufacture that stations will be for this simple fact.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#404 - 2014-04-29 21:14:59 UTC
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Correction: 2% of product value, not of BPO value. Any work where the output is a Covetor BP (original or copy) will be keyed to 2% of the price of a Covetor.


A covetor costs ~30m isk. 2% of 30m is 600k.

I currently value the production cost of a Covetor BPC at 115k isk.


I had to go back and reread the blog to make sure I understood. I think people are missing something on copy cost, or I am adding something in.


Manufacture: Price of item * cost % (let's go with 14%) = cost

Copy: Price of item bp produces * 0.2 = "value" of BPC produced. That value * cost % = cost.


So, if a covetor is 30M, then the BPC would be valued at 600K, and then the cost multiplier is applied to that.

60M * 0.02 * 0.14 = 168K

Adding the 168K to the price of the ship,

If you are doing the copy at a POS in a low use system with only 1% flored tax.

60M * 0.02 * 0.01 = 15.6K for the copy



The ramification is that if I am doing the copies in a POS at a rarely used system with 1% tax, I can crank out copies for 1/14th the cost of making copies in station.

In a worst case, where I'm getting 4% on POS and you're getting 11% in station, I'm making copies at 1/3rd the cost of making copies in station.

I stand by my belief that there will be a lot of 1-player alt corps with a very hardened, large, high-sec POS, and an alt-login/logout hell to deliver and re-start copy jobs.


No, you are leaving out the POS fuel costs. Fueling the POS for a month means you'll spend at least 100 million isk for a small.

Now maybe that will let you crank out a whole bunch of BPCs, and the price per copy isn't that horrendous, but a POS is not free.

Edit, and 400 million/month for a large. You better make a whole lotta BPCs. To get back at the 168,000 price you'll need to make almost 2,400 BPCs.


I operate a Large POS with lots of lines that we share among corp members.
40 blocks * 18k per block / 3600s/hr gives an operational cost of 200 isk per second. If you are using 20 lines at the POS, that's 10 isk / second per line. A 300 run BPC takes 2 * 12000s * 10 isk / s * 0.5 (Skill and POS time modifier) = 120k isk in fuel costs for a Max Run Module BPC.

It can be difficult to keep 20 lines running 24/7 all month for a solo player, but it isn't that hard for a group of players.
Adunh Slavy
#405 - 2014-04-29 21:21:07 UTC
Peter Powers wrote:

How will that be compensated?



Shoot them?

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#406 - 2014-04-29 21:28:07 UTC
Dibble Dabble wrote:
So another lets screw hi sec industry corps blog.

No thanks CCP not interested in this crap. POS's are down. Accounts not plex'd.

Just waiting for the next blog now, I am not expecting much love for hi-sec.





CCP hath given you ability to leverage costs relative to the market [and thus earn lots and lots of isk off consumers]




You're really going to ***** about a buff to your own playstyle?
Hexatron Ormand
Aperture Space
WYNX
#407 - 2014-04-29 21:34:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Hexatron Ormand
Reading over a few posts, especially noticing the request of what is not producable at POSes right now, made me want to mention something else: Station Containers of all sort. They cannot be made at any POS array right now.

So making that manufacturable at POSes would be a great thing (i know that as we currently have BPOs of those locked down for the corp, but are unable to use them as the station has no production slots, and they cannot be produced at our remote POS).



As for "what could make POSes more useful":

Some sort of increased Corphangar Array that has more storage room and can be used to feed jobs at all POS arrays would also attract more players to use a POS for production. Currently you need to split the resources out into all arrays, need to keep in mind where you put what, whom of the corp guys belongs what materials - so having a more centralized place to have those things would be great. Like a bigger corporation hangar. Of if you want it to be really amazing, make it like the personal hangar array, where everyone has their own storage room - so no more mixing up the production materials with those of your corpmate who produced at the same array. As soon as you have several inventors, producers and so on, it gets messy qucikly at a POS. So anything that can help with that will be very welcome.



Something else that would benefit POS use in a huge way for corporations and "using it together" (but may be hard to implement in this short time), is some way of "securing" BPOs like the lockup feature we had so far at the stations. I assume there would need to be a special system for POSes to allow for rapid unlocking and moving - what may be way too much to get done in the time you still have. Just thought i'd mention it, as for our corp, locked down BPOs that are in use by all of us, are a big thing. I could imagine having some of the "cheaper" BPOs like ammunition prints and things like that at the POS.




That gets me to something related to that, as we may have to unlock and move a lot of our corp owned BPOs after the summer patch, how about streamlining this process as well? That they can be locked or unlocked in bulks?
As the one who has to do all this unlocking.. and later relocking (where available), i will for sure NOT be looking forward to that, as the current BPO locking system is totally HORRIBLE.
We really need a more up to date and user friendly locking and unlocking methode, that may also work on starbases at a later date. Klicking every single one... acknowledging it.. setting time.. and voting on it.. is just *ugh*.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#408 - 2014-04-29 21:37:54 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Correction: 2% of product value, not of BPO value. Any work where the output is a Covetor BP (original or copy) will be keyed to 2% of the price of a Covetor.


A covetor costs ~30m isk. 2% of 30m is 600k.

I currently value the production cost of a Covetor BPC at 115k isk.


I had to go back and reread the blog to make sure I understood. I think people are missing something on copy cost, or I am adding something in.


Manufacture: Price of item * cost % (let's go with 14%) = cost

Copy: Price of item bp produces * 0.2 = "value" of BPC produced. That value * cost % = cost.


So, if a covetor is 30M, then the BPC would be valued at 600K, and then the cost multiplier is applied to that.

60M * 0.02 * 0.14 = 168K

Adding the 168K to the price of the ship,

If you are doing the copy at a POS in a low use system with only 1% flored tax.

60M * 0.02 * 0.01 = 15.6K for the copy



The ramification is that if I am doing the copies in a POS at a rarely used system with 1% tax, I can crank out copies for 1/14th the cost of making copies in station.

In a worst case, where I'm getting 4% on POS and you're getting 11% in station, I'm making copies at 1/3rd the cost of making copies in station.

I stand by my belief that there will be a lot of 1-player alt corps with a very hardened, large, high-sec POS, and an alt-login/logout hell to deliver and re-start copy jobs.


No, you are leaving out the POS fuel costs. Fueling the POS for a month means you'll spend at least 100 million isk for a small.

Now maybe that will let you crank out a whole bunch of BPCs, and the price per copy isn't that horrendous, but a POS is not free.

Edit, and 400 million/month for a large. You better make a whole lotta BPCs. To get back at the 168,000 price you'll need to make almost 2,400 BPCs.


I operate a Large POS with lots of lines that we share among corp members.
40 blocks * 18k per block / 3600s/hr gives an operational cost of 200 isk per second. If you are using 20 lines at the POS, that's 10 isk / second per line. A 300 run BPC takes 2 * 12000s * 10 isk / s * 0.5 (Skill and POS time modifier) = 120k isk in fuel costs for a Max Run Module BPC.

It can be difficult to keep 20 lines running 24/7 all month for a solo player, but it isn't that hard for a group of players.



Infinate slots at POS now. So, even easier to produce that same output level. It becomes a limit to how many toons, how many jobs per toon, and how often you are willing to log in all those alts to deliver than start more jobs. Instead of stacking start times, everything starts immediately and runs concurrently.
Juin Tsukaya
Perkone
Caldari State
#409 - 2014-04-29 21:39:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Juin Tsukaya
you mention the stations individual tax rate. is standing with that corp going to affect this?

sorry if it has been asked before, did not see it answered.
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#410 - 2014-04-29 21:48:16 UTC
Hexatron Ormand wrote:

Also with your scaling cost factors, please keep in mind that POS users already have to pay an upkeep price in form of fuel blocks. So Additional costs that have to get calculated in there. So either very favourable scaling costs or reduced fuel block consumption may be a very nice thing! (And don't tell me that saving those 10% of taxes on my POS for installing jobs will easily add up to 400-500 million per month, so those fuel blocks are covered.....and yes we do not plan on downgrading to a small one as another dev post in the features and ideas forum thinks everyone will do)



So it's either cheaper for you to switch to stations (do so, patch success), or to stay in in place and dodge everyone else's price increases (do so, patch success).


Why is there a problem? The array bonus to builds is just icing on the cake.
Valterra Craven
#411 - 2014-04-29 21:49:02 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:



Infinate slots at POS now. So, even easier to produce that same output level. It becomes a limit to how many toons, how many jobs per toon, and how often you are willing to log in all those alts to deliver than start more jobs. Instead of stacking start times, everything starts immediately and runs concurrently.



Nope, the limit is how much space you have in the array... you will hit that long before you hit a character limit.
Marc Rene
Doomheim
#412 - 2014-04-29 21:50:04 UTC
Have you considered rather than using the selling price of the BP output to use the cost of the materials used instead?

This would remove the cost spiral concerns people have and also reduce the impact on producing from faction/rare BPCs.

Take for example an Ashimmu BPC, the end product current sell for about 165m but only costs about 11m of materials to make - the majority of the value comes from the BPCs (which are currently changing hands for circa 147m+).

The changes as outlined are going to make pretty much every faction/rare item derived from a BPC disproportionately more expensive to produce.

May O'Neez
Flying Blacksmiths
#413 - 2014-04-29 21:51:10 UTC
OK, seems that POS usage is about to dramatically change since current usage will be broken (workforce taxes vs fuel, force to have BP in there for use, no locks, including BPO at the time BPC not done yet). On another hand you seem to force people to use it with its ore compression capabilities since other solutions have been discarded in terms of profit. People doing hisec capital build (building in low but importing minerals from hisec) will consume all their time hauling ore between systems and will have to put them in POS instead of doing locally (I also suppose that the case will exist in nullsec even if there's more facilities to do that).

Moreover, with taxes + workforce costs, I assume you intend to make the people move regularly as the system will change between overcrowed state and empty, creating a sort of market of the systems, ... a market of markets. Do you realize that some people will be pissed of moving their stuff ? Handling the production and its dependencies is already a tedious work, if you intended to simplify it, you only improved the UI and the math, but the rest will increase in tedious things to do.

I'm not very optimistic atm for these update and look forward to a point release when you will see "silent people" come to the forum when they'll discover the changes.
Korthan Doshu
Doomheim
#414 - 2014-04-29 21:51:35 UTC
"CCP Greyscale" wrote:
For each previously slot-improving manufacturing-related Outpost Improvement, you'll get a 1% bonus to ME instead (we can do that now). This is different because the manufacturing slot upgrades in particular are pretty substantial right now, and installation costs are assumed to be a sufficiently small fraction of final item costs in nullsec that a cost multiplier here seemed underwhelming. We're still looking at the exact bonus here, and the relationship between Amarr and Minmatar outposts in particular, so this may change before it's released.


Somebody else already mentioned invention. This is a big problem. The impact of an ME1 bonus on things with ME0 or more appears to be hugely different from the impact of an ME1 bonus on negative ME actions. I mean, point taken that reducing the 5% congestion cost in any way would quickly be meaningless, but giving inventors anywhere a shot at zero ME with no decryptors is way too big of a bonus. Only give the bonus when you're already at ME0, maybe?
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#415 - 2014-04-29 21:56:33 UTC
May O'Neez wrote:
OK, seems that POS usage is about to dramatically change since current usage will be broken (workforce taxes vs fuel, force to have BP in there for use, no locks, including BPO at the time BPC not done yet). On another hand you seem to force people to use it with its ore compression capabilities since other solutions have been discarded in terms of profit. People doing hisec capital build (building in low but importing minerals from hisec) will consume all their time hauling ore between systems and will have to put them in POS instead of doing locally (I also suppose that the case will exist in nullsec even if there's more facilities to do that).

Moreover, with taxes + workforce costs, I assume you intend to make the people move regularly as the system will change between overcrowed state and empty, creating a sort of market of the systems, ... a market of markets. Do you realize that some people will be pissed of moving their stuff ? Handling the production and its dependencies is already a tedious work, if you intended to simplify it, you only improved the UI and the math, but the rest will increase in tedious things to do.

I'm not very optimistic atm for these update and look forward to a point release when you will see "silent people" come to the forum when they'll discover the changes.




You'll be "pissed off" at the new industry system?


Then don't do industry? Maybe it's not for you???
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#416 - 2014-04-29 21:58:06 UTC
Korthan Doshu wrote:
"CCP Greyscale" wrote:
For each previously slot-improving manufacturing-related Outpost Improvement, you'll get a 1% bonus to ME instead (we can do that now). This is different because the manufacturing slot upgrades in particular are pretty substantial right now, and installation costs are assumed to be a sufficiently small fraction of final item costs in nullsec that a cost multiplier here seemed underwhelming. We're still looking at the exact bonus here, and the relationship between Amarr and Minmatar outposts in particular, so this may change before it's released.


Somebody else already mentioned invention. This is a big problem. The impact of an ME1 bonus on things with ME0 or more appears to be hugely different from the impact of an ME1 bonus on negative ME actions. I mean, point taken that reducing the 5% congestion cost in any way would quickly be meaningless, but giving inventors anywhere a shot at zero ME with no decryptors is way too big of a bonus. Only give the bonus when you're already at ME0, maybe?




5% build cost, i.e. ME-4 = 40% increase in material requirements. Slap an amarr station on that *****, you're only getting 35% increase in material requirements.
Dibble Dabble
Capital Assets Inc
#417 - 2014-04-29 22:01:00 UTC
Loraine Gess wrote:
Dibble Dabble wrote:
So another lets screw hi sec industry corps blog.

No thanks CCP not interested in this crap. POS's are down. Accounts not plex'd.

Just waiting for the next blog now, I am not expecting much love for hi-sec.





CCP hath given you ability to leverage costs relative to the market [and thus earn lots and lots of isk off consumers]




You're really going to ***** about a buff to your own playstyle?


As I have said in another dev blog post the changes when applied as a whole make running a small industry corp much more difficult. Locked down BPO's need to be unlocked and moved to POS's (if your mad) or other systems and when you have maybe 400bil in BPO's it become a logistical mess.

We have taken the decision that as all of us have full time jobs we don't really need another . Our final POS will be down when the final batch is done and I think 15 accounts have been un-subbed leaving 3 maybe 5 active accounts between us. What we will do in Eve. if anything, remains to be seen. We are ISK heavy so its not as if we need to actually do anything at the last count we could buy over 100 plex's each before we dispose of any assets. But we see no reason to continue with hi-sec industry. We no longer need the accounts for building stuff they don't have any other useful skills and I think there will be glut or industry character for sale soon so they will be undervalued. Our BPO's will remain locked down in the corp hanger.

Your correct in that the changes will make things more expensive so as we anticipated such a move by CCP (have they ever made changes to make things cheaper?) so last week all market items and contracts have been terminated and we will remarket and factor in the cost increases at a future date.

We spend at least 40bil a month on plex, fuel, materials and sometimes double or triple that. In the scheme of things that a drop in the ocean when compared to large corps and alliance but I have seen at least 5 other POS's gone in the last week or so just from our system and they all belonged to small corps like ours. I have spoken to two of the corps and they don't see a future. Most will not leave Eve they will find something else to do, as we may do, but like us, it wont be hi-sec industry.

Hi Sec Industry. No Thanks. I already work for a living.







Dalilus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#418 - 2014-04-29 22:07:02 UTC
and the nullbear BWAAAAAmbulace roars on.....


Nullbears: BWAAAAAAAA (gimme this), BWAAAAAAAAA (gime that), BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA (we demand the following).
Whomever makes decisions in game to nerf highsec and buff patches in favor of nullbear alliances: calm down my pets I have the following for you "We're hopeful that the summer release will make manufacturing in nullsec more viable......."

Good grief.

Pathetic.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#419 - 2014-04-29 22:08:12 UTC
Loraine Gess wrote:

5% build cost, i.e. ME-4 = 40% increase in material requirements. Slap an amarr station on that *****, you're only getting 35% increase in material requirements.

You are assuming that it's actually % in build cost and they didn't list % because positive ME levels are 1% steps. But actually are altering the effective ME level.
This is a language question and till it's clarified I'm taking worst case scenario.

Even if it is actually % then it still is another cumulative advantage to Null price to build items, which gives them even greater ability to destroy high sec industry via price wars.

Combined with their blatant 'We want to keep the balance between the areas the same as now' lie, I can't blame industrialists who are currently based in high sec for packing up their industrial operations. Based on the current figures, the maths looks very poor for any significant industry in high.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#420 - 2014-04-29 22:08:12 UTC
asteroidjas wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
For NPC stations, these multipliers range between 0.95 and 0.98, based on how well the station's activity (factory, testing facility, warehouse etc) is judged to be suited to building and/or researching things. Stations can have different ratings for manufacturing and research. These are not huge numbers, but because they multiply together they can have a big effect. In manufacturing, the current record-holder in empire space is Nonni, with a multiplier of around 0.48 - building things in Nonni will, all other things being equal, halve the cost of installing a job.



Okay, here's where i'm most confused...

So, you start by saying that all NPC stations in empire have multipliers that range between 0.95-0.98. Then you say that Nonni has a 0.48.

How does 0.48 fall between 0.95 and 0.98 ????


They are multiplicative for number of stations. Using DOTLAN, I count 15 factory stations and 7 non-factory. So: 0.95^15 * 0.98^7 = .40. So, not all the factory are 0.95, but most are.



asteroidjas wrote:

And having said that, if all the station multipliers range between .95-.98, how exactly is .75 "mid range system"???


Average more than one station per.


asteroidjas wrote:

Also, i did not see any info on exactly what types of stations give the better 'bonuses' to reducing the cost, is there any way players can find this info?


i would assume it is based on how many slots they now have.

asteroidjas wrote:

I'm also confused on the point where it was said that the more eligible stations in a system will grant a discount to the costs, but isn't that then offset by the number of jobs that will be in that system b/c there are alot of stations that off the 'slots' so to speak? (yes i know, slots are dead)


Infinite slots. Post release, ANY station can have infinite jobs, even if it only has one station with a factory, or a single... really, really heavily used POS.

Instead of an increase in the number of jobs for multiple factories, not you will get slower increase in cost for more factories in a system