These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev blog: The Price of Change

First post First post
Author
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#341 - 2014-04-29 18:20:36 UTC
Tippia wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
We are totally open to suggestions for what to do with starbases as they relate to industry. In particular, if anyone who does starbase work can spend a few minutes outlining the *simplest* changes they think would be sufficient to keep starbases in a reasonable place for this release, we're very interested in hearing them. Yes, we know "throw it out and start over" would be great, but we're not getting that done between now and the summer release, no matter how much we'd like to.

See my previous post.

Use the same method you're using to replace total system slot count with a system cost bonus, only when you use a POS, it counts the number of relevant arrays at that POS to determine the bonus (and completely ignores all system-based bonuses). The exact per-array bonus can be tweaked, or you can be all fancy and give different arrays different bonuses. A “relevant array” would be any array that can perform the kind of S&I job you're about to do.


I do not think this is as easy as you think. Too easily manipulated by on-lining just to install, then off-line and on-line other types of arrays. This would force them to then track some sort of mod-online-minutes. I think this is the "performance hit" mentioned in the blog.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#342 - 2014-04-29 18:20:39 UTC
StinGer ShoGuN wrote:
OK guys cool, but huuuuu. What about people doing industry in low sec AND NOT in FW ??

Shall I read a "STFU, we dont' care about you guys" here or what ? It's gonna be more expensive than now, and I won't have the FW bonuses. Whooah ! \o/ My life is cool in low sec, I love it, great !

Since low sec isn't exactly popular right now for production, prices should be comparatively pretty low.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Matthew
BloodStar Technologies
#343 - 2014-04-29 18:22:38 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Counting facilities at a starbase is somewhat computationally expensive right now, as we don't keep track of which structures are associated with each control tower in the DB. The "obvious solution" (ie what you've described, and what's in the original design) requires us to do some legwork to track that properly, which as I alluded to earlier is not particularly conceptually complex but requires a reasonable amount of work that we may or may not have time to do.


The other problem I can see with the "obvious solution" is that the number of arrays only seems to matter at the point you are installing the job. For the system-level bonus, this isn't much of a problem, as NPC stations and Outposts don't tend to change very often. However, at the starbase level, the arrangement of online facilities can change very rapidly.

i.e. what would happen if someone had one lab and one factory that they kept online all the time, into which they placed all of their jobs. They then have a load of other factory and lab arrays that are anchored but offlined. They online as many labs as possible just before they start placing lab jobs, so when they place the jobs, the cost calculation sees lots of labs online and applies a discount. They then offline all the labs, online all the factories and place manufacturing jobs. Again, at the point the job is placed, the cost calculation sees lots of factories online and applies a discount.

I can think of three ways around this:

1) Track a one-to-many relationship between the job and the arrays that were online when it was placed. Use this relationship to either offline the job if any of those arrays go offline (rather than just the one it was actually placed in), or add some mechanism whereby you must pay the additional install cost that you would have paid had the array not been online when the job was originally placed, before you can offline the array. Either way, this is a lot more information to track and means touching the online/offline rules. It also significantly limits the legitimate flexibility of the starbase.

2) Have the discount be based on an average of the number of arrays online over the last X days. This would be less prone to active gaming, but would mean that it took a while for a newly deployed starbase to ramp up to full effectiveness. It would also mean tracking the online/offline history of the arrays in a way I don't think is done at the moment.

3) Have the bonus work more like the "fraction of global job hours" term, but with "fraction of starbase job hours" across the arrays. This would force you to spread the jobs over all the arrays at the starbase to get the advantage, thereby ensuring they all had to remain online. However, this embeds the "many small arrays" model of starbases, when the consensus seems to be that we want to move away from that to something that is more unified at the starbase level. So I'm not sure this is the direction we'd want to go in.


The suggestion by Querns to scale by the number of organisation-owned arrays in the entire system sounds sensible - it's a much easier query to run, and is consistent with the approach taken of aggregating NPC facilities across the entire system. However, it doesn't get around the problem of gaming the system with rapid online/offlining of "secondary" arrays.
Kun'ii Zenya
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#344 - 2014-04-29 18:22:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Kun'ii Zenya
Proton Power wrote:
Anyone able to answer if this is correct?

JF Build -

Produce BPC for Freighter, get charged 2% tax on a freighter (20mil?)
Produce BPC for Freighter, get charged 2% tax on freighter (20mil?)
Invent 2 jobs of Freighter to get 1 BPC if I am lucky today, 2% on 2 Invention Jobs on 5bil isk ship = 200mil, 100mil each
Produce T1 Capital Comps for T1 Freighter, say 3% system tax (30mil Extra)
Produce T1 Freighter, 10% tax minus some system bonus's so say 3% tax (30mil Extra)
Produce T2 Components for Jump Freighter (4bil * same 3% tax = 120mil Extra)
Produce JF (6bil * same 3% tax = 180mil extra)

JF now costs 600mil Isk more isk to produce? This is all basic numbers based on 3% tax (Not sure if 3% is reasoanble, don't understand how that works 100% yet)

Am I missing something?


Your wrong in the first step, IMO.

Quote:
Produce BPC for Freighter, get charged 2% tax on a freighter (20mil?)


Assuming 1 billion isk for a freighter, the actual "tax" or cost of making a BPC is more along the lines of:

1,000,000,000*(0.02)*(sqrt of job hours fraction)

The last terms for the busiest system was 0.15, using that gives us an upper bound:

3,000,000 isk for a 1 run BPC.

On top of that we'd have to use the system facilities multiplier. If you use a Caldari Outpost that cost would drop by half to 1,500,000 isk.

So you are quite a bit off and likely in all the other calculations too.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#345 - 2014-04-29 18:23:22 UTC
To be honest, the only thing that will make this work on a practical level is the new UI, with it's ability to just click on a BP and see the relevant cost at a glance.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Proton Power
Evolution
Northern Coalition.
#346 - 2014-04-29 18:23:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Proton Power
Never mind based on above I am missing something... Dont understand it 100% but stll missing something ;)
Kun'ii Zenya
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#347 - 2014-04-29 18:25:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Kun'ii Zenya
HORDES wrote:
hope im wrong here but u base tax on bpos 2% of what it makes so if u copy a nyx its going cost a dam lot and as for titans well i dont want to think about it so to make it cheaper use pos mmm ccp said we dont think players be putting high isk bpos as the risk will be high but you dont want us copy in stations u prices us out of that so what else
do we do but to pack up


The base cost of copying will be 0.3% for copying in the busiest system.

And that is the upper bound, a completely dead system copying will be 0.02% of the cost of the final item.
Proton Power
Evolution
Northern Coalition.
#348 - 2014-04-29 18:26:41 UTC
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:
Proton Power wrote:
Anyone able to answer if this is correct?

JF Build -

Produce BPC for Freighter, get charged 2% tax on a freighter (20mil?)
Produce BPC for Freighter, get charged 2% tax on freighter (20mil?)
Invent 2 jobs of Freighter to get 1 BPC if I am lucky today, 2% on 2 Invention Jobs on 5bil isk ship = 200mil, 100mil each
Produce T1 Capital Comps for T1 Freighter, say 3% system tax (30mil Extra)
Produce T1 Freighter, 10% tax minus some system bonus's so say 3% tax (30mil Extra)
Produce T2 Components for Jump Freighter (4bil * same 3% tax = 120mil Extra)
Produce JF (6bil * same 3% tax = 180mil extra)

JF now costs 600mil Isk more isk to produce? This is all basic numbers based on 3% tax (Not sure if 3% is reasoanble, don't understand how that works 100% yet)

Am I missing something?


Your wrong in the first step, IMO.

Quote:
Produce BPC for Freighter, get charged 2% tax on a freighter (20mil?)


Assuming 1 billion isk for a freighter, the actual "tax" or cost of making a BPC is more along the lines of:

1,000,000,000*(0.02)*(sqrt of job hours fraction)

The last terms for the busiest system was 0.15, using that gives us an upper bound:

3,000,000 isk for a 1 run BPC.

On top of that we'd have to use the system facilities multiplier. If you use a Caldari Outpost that cost would drop by half to 1,500,000 isk.

So you are quite a bit and likely in all the other calculations too.




Okay I feel a little better that my numbers/calculations are off. I don't understand it, but that is just a learning math curve.. Hope you are more correct than I was.
Kun'ii Zenya
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#349 - 2014-04-29 18:27:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Kun'ii Zenya
Proton Power wrote:
Never mind based on above I am missing something... Dont understand it 100% but stll missing something ;)


The base cost of installing a job is multiplicative.

If I multiply 2% by 15% I get 0.3%. So the costs of copying, research, and so forth is likely to be quite small.

Quote:
Okay I feel a little better that my numbers/calculations are off. I don't understand it, but that is just a learning math curve.. Hope you are more correct than I was.


Me too. P
mkint
#350 - 2014-04-29 18:28:03 UTC
HORDES wrote:
hope im wrong here but u base tax on bpos 2% of what it makes so if u copy a nyx its going cost a dam lot and as for titans well i dont want to think about it so to make it cheaper use pos mmm ccp said we dont think players be putting high isk bpos as the risk will be high but you dont want us copy in stations u prices us out of that so what else
do we do but to pack up

Your math is broken where everybody else's is.

on research jobs, installationcost = (finalproductvalue*.02) * labcost
labcost is usually 0.01 to 0.15 depending on how much you hate yourself.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#351 - 2014-04-29 18:28:18 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
I understand the pricing for manufacturing. However, I do not understand the pricing for research: what's the output price? Could you give us some examples of what it would cost to (a)add a level of ME to a bpo (b)Make copies of that bpo or (c) run an invention job?


The "output price" where the output is a blueprint is treated as being 2% of the value of whatever the blueprint produces. It's buried in a paragraph halfway down, that probably could've been clearer.


What about copies: is a 50-run copy equal to 100%? It seems like this makes regular research oddly cheap and copying oddly expensive in relation to one another. I'll have to poke at the formula and see what drops out for the usual sort of stuff though.

Related question: how is this formula resolving the market value of rarely sold (e.g. components) items and never sold (supercaps)? Is it using market prices or is it doing a sort of 'base cost' off the minerals?


It will likely be per-run, so a 50-run copy becomes 100%, yes. Research costs scale at higher levels though, so it probably swings back a bit there.

Market costs are all done using the system that is used for killmail pricing (and thus used for FW LP payouts), which should have reasonable values for most things already. Some newer items aren't being properly calculated on TQ right now, but we're fixing that.


Let's put some numbers on this:

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, valued at 1.3m isk.

To make a Heavy Nuetron Blaster II, I need a max run Heavy Neutron Blaster 1 BPC. This is 300 runs per copy. The cost of a Heavy Neutron Blaster 1 is ~200k isk.
That means my BPC is worth 300 * .02 * 200k * (station costs) = 1.2m * (station costs)
Assuming the station has 5% of global hours, the sqrt of this is .22 ('we'll round down to .2).
Now the cost of the BPC is 1.2 * .2 = 240k isk to make.

The net result in my spread sheets is about a 120k isk price increase to the 1.3m isk build price of the Heavy Neutron Blaster Cannon II.


Proton Power
Evolution
Northern Coalition.
#352 - 2014-04-29 18:28:53 UTC
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:
Proton Power wrote:
Never mind based on above I am missing something... Dont understand it 100% but stll missing something ;)


The base cost of installing a job is multiplicative.

If I multiply 2% by 15% I get 0.3%. So the costs of copying, research, and so forth is likely to be quite small.

Quote:
Okay I feel a little better that my numbers/calculations are off. I don't understand it, but that is just a learning math curve.. Hope you are more correct than I was.


Me too. P


Understood with you so far on this. Now for me to seem dumber than I already have shown:

How do I get that 2% and 15% number to determine what the multiplier is?
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#353 - 2014-04-29 18:29:14 UTC
PineappIe King wrote:
Worst expansion ever, you really expect us to w*** off over a new industry GUI and some prices changes?

We want to shoot at stuff


From the stats I've seen released by CCP, that seems not to be the case for majority of players.

Yes, there is a large chunk of the player base (like 5% of active accounts(and since every industrialist has 4 alts, like 25% of actual people)) that love shooting stuff, and it is a good thing you do as it creates demand for the rest of us that like to harvest and build.

It has to be a tough position for CCP to try to balance between the 75% that like to do boring stuff, which it is hard to create cool videos for... with the minority for whom it is all pew pew.

BUT, to be fair, it had been MANY years of new ships, ship re-balance, tiericide, exploration, null sov udates... etc. etc. since industry got any love. Can we not have ONE release for industry?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#354 - 2014-04-29 18:30:26 UTC
You know what this thread reminds me of?



Dr. Peter Venkman: This city is headed for a disaster of biblical proportions.

Mayor: What do you mean, "biblical"?

Dr Ray Stantz: What he means is Old Testament, Mr. Mayor, real wrath of God type stuff.

Dr. Peter Venkman: Exactly.

Dr Ray Stantz: Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling!

Dr. Egon Spengler: Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes...

Winston Zeddemore: The dead rising from the grave!

Dr. Peter Venkman: Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!

Mayor: All right, all right! I get the point!

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Veldar Reku
Wu Xi Holdings
#355 - 2014-04-29 18:30:33 UTC
I protest these insane labour costs. Amarrian facilities should be exempt from labour costs - we use free and fresh Minmatar stock for all our menial labour needs!

mkint
#356 - 2014-04-29 18:32:02 UTC
Proton Power wrote:
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:
Proton Power wrote:
Never mind based on above I am missing something... Dont understand it 100% but stll missing something ;)


The base cost of installing a job is multiplicative.

If I multiply 2% by 15% I get 0.3%. So the costs of copying, research, and so forth is likely to be quite small.

Quote:
Okay I feel a little better that my numbers/calculations are off. I don't understand it, but that is just a learning math curve.. Hope you are more correct than I was.


Me too. P


Understood with you so far on this. Now for me to seem dumber than I already have shown:

How do I get that 2% and 15% number to determine what the multiplier is?

The 2% outputBPCvalue is static. The 15% depends on the system, and as of the snapshot it ranges from 1% to 15%.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#357 - 2014-04-29 18:34:12 UTC
Veldar Reku wrote:
I protest these insane labour costs. Amarrian facilities should be exempt from labour costs - we use free and fresh Minmatar stock for all our menial labour needs!


Surprisingly, slavery isn't necessarily a cost effective industry model. Blink

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

mkint
#358 - 2014-04-29 18:36:45 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Veldar Reku wrote:
I protest these insane labour costs. Amarrian facilities should be exempt from labour costs - we use free and fresh Minmatar stock for all our menial labour needs!


Surprisingly, slavery isn't necessarily a cost effective industry model. Blink

lol, this is actually true. I think slave labor costs something like 20% more than paid labor for the same production.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Lady Zarrina
New Eden Browncoats
#359 - 2014-04-29 18:37:16 UTC
Hmm need to see these numbers in action. And I'm not sure about this flat 10% tax. Corporate standing and skills related to taxes should modify this number.

EVE: All about Flying Frisky and Making Iskie

Mal Nina
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#360 - 2014-04-29 18:38:37 UTC
I may have misread something so please correct me if I am wrong.

In a HS system the cost of research and production is modified by the number of stations and the facilities in those stations so that even a POS being used in such a system gains a cost advantage over a POS in a station-less system. Hence jita with all its stations becomes a 4% modified system over others that have fewer stations.

My question concerns WH space were there are no stations in system therefore there are no reductions to the overall costs of manufacturing and all manufacturing takes place in a POS. Do multiple arrays help reduce the cost? Having trouble wrapping my head around just what this will mean to my production costs in relation to system in the rest of Space that can have outposts, stations and such in them.