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Null sec industry changes - has anyone told the alliances?

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Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#61 - 2014-04-27 12:06:59 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


Uh, you realise sov bills are a thing, right?

Anyway serious, a fully upgraded Amarr station costs a lot. Even as a "capital cost" that's a lot of ISK, when empire stations are provided literally for free.

Sov Bills are for the TCU & IHub.
There is not a single bill for an outpost.

Even if you tax lawyer and pretend there is some 'percentage' you can assign, that then correlates directly into a matching discount on your TCU & IHub, so it still costs zero of your sov bill.

As to Capital cost, yes it is a fair bit. On alliance levels it certainly isn't 'a lot' though. And if you consider that you get a 60% time discount when fully upgraded on certain items that extra monthly profit will pay itself off fairly fast. After which you gain pure profit. At a risk, so I have no issues with that provided it is because of volume.

The issue is with the ability to win any price war if null cares to. It's simply a potentially game breaking advantage, and it won't be blatantly visible if it will break the game till too late. Profit because of magical discount or magical boosted production of minerals quite simply isn't defendable.


I fear you may be right. Once things are changed it is not always easy, if not nigh impossible to remedy the situation. We still have to wait for the remaining dev blogs to get the full picture. The invention changes won't be out till the summer either so even after Fanfest the picture won't be complete.

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .
Kun'ii Zenya
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#62 - 2014-04-27 18:42:09 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
Here is a secret:

Nobody cares about your space hobby. Bring bros to fleets and you will never be bothered about doing industry.

Just don't expect anyone to be considerate about your towers, slots, minerals and other stuff. If the **** hits the fan an alliance needs to react. It's the same with ratters, they just have lighter bags to pack.


Pretty much this.

If you show up for fleets (defense and on deployment) what else you do is generally of little interest to the alliance. So have a PvP character who can get in fleets/go on deployments. Do industry in null, if it does become profitable, on the industry characters (having them positioned to light cynos, and do scouting is also a good idea as it will make your even more helpful) and you'll be fine.

Of course, if you anchor a tower it wont be exempt as a target for hostiles. If you are helping to support your alliance via your industry (e.g. taxes, donations of one form or another) your alliance may very well help try to save said tower (after all that could result in a fight which is what most line members care about).
Kun'ii Zenya
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#63 - 2014-04-27 18:46:08 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


Uh, you realise sov bills are a thing, right?

Anyway serious, a fully upgraded Amarr station costs a lot. Even as a "capital cost" that's a lot of ISK, when empire stations are provided literally for free.

Sov Bills are for the TCU & IHub.
There is not a single bill for an outpost.

Even if you tax lawyer and pretend there is some 'percentage' you can assign, that then correlates directly into a matching discount on your TCU & IHub, so it still costs zero of your sov bill.

As to Capital cost, yes it is a fair bit. On alliance levels it certainly isn't 'a lot' though. And if you consider that you get a 60% time discount when fully upgraded on certain items that extra monthly profit will pay itself off fairly fast. After which you gain pure profit. At a risk, so I have no issues with that provided it is because of volume.

The issue is with the ability to win any price war if null cares to. It's simply a potentially game breaking advantage, and it won't be blatantly visible if it will break the game till too late. Profit because of magical discount or magical boosted production of minerals quite simply isn't defendable.


But you appear to be forgetting you can't put down that outpost without sov. And you can't keep it without sov. So the notion that sov bills and outposts are not related is either you being obtuse or deliberately obtuse (i.e. intentionally misleading).

If you want to do industry in null and your alliance says, "Great, good luck and we hope you make lots of isk...oh and we have additional slot taxes for you to pay." It is because of the sov...that you'll be using to make all those profits.

Roll
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#64 - 2014-04-27 22:02:25 UTC
How to fix:

Raise refinining taxes in NPC stations.

Make it so Null sec is the cheapest place to refine.
(( Outpost can collect the taxes but POS's lose a % of them to run the refiners ))

Let the Alliances get that nice percentage of the minerals in taxes.

It will then be in everyones best interest to have miners in null sec.

High and Low sec would see more towers to help avoid a % of the taxes but not as nice as the outpost.

More targets. Better risk v.s. reward for the alliance and the industrialist the further from high sec you get.

Imagine being able to tax the miners the way the mission runners, ratters, exploration, and PI get taxed.


It would also have the nice side effect of stopping the every growing deflation that has only had isk faucets like incursions to help keep the prices up which keeps even more people in high sec.
Felicity Love
Doomheim
#65 - 2014-04-28 02:49:54 UTC
Paul Otichoda wrote:
The upcoming update appears to be focusing on trying to get industry into null sec. However there is one question, if it becomes more profitable to do industry in null sec, will the alliances be interested in letting in industrial corps?



Depends on how advantageous having a POS for industry actually turns out to be, because the ability to set one up is allegedly a "Big Deal"(TM) in the summer expansion scheme of things.

In which case, truly clever pilots don't want or need to find themselves embroiled in Nullbear shennanigans or beholden to some fapping Slum Lord.

Either way, it will come down to the ingenuity of the pilot and/or corp in question and how said pilot/corp generates profit.

Which, oddly enough, is always the way EVE has worked. P


"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#66 - 2014-04-28 06:35:22 UTC
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:

But you appear to be forgetting you can't put down that outpost without sov. And you can't keep it without sov. So the notion that sov bills and outposts are not related is either you being obtuse or deliberately obtuse (i.e. intentionally misleading).

If you want to do industry in null and your alliance says, "Great, good luck and we hope you make lots of isk...oh and we have additional slot taxes for you to pay." It is because of the sov...that you'll be using to make all those profits.

Roll

Sov Bills & Outposts are related certainly. But there is no Sov cost for an outpost. It is a maintenance free upgrade to a Sov system that only requires a capital cost. Meaning that you can recover the capital cost over time from your increased profits very easily. See the main thread for someone doing the maths that on the current figures a solo large scale industrial pilot can recover the costs on their own in a mere few months, let alone an entire corp or alliance.

I'm not against null being more attractive for industrialists though, but it should be on a time advantage and availability of local materials advantage. Not on a profit per item advantage. Since on the profit per item you can destroy industrialists from any other zone if you choose to cut your margins, while still making a profit yourself. And there is literally nothing they can do about it.

While if it is on a volume basis, you have to ensure that you have a market for that volume and that you aren't saturating your market (Be it export market or local). Which therefore creates a lot more value choices, while still being attractive for volume.
Kun'ii Zenya
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#67 - 2014-04-28 16:36:05 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:

But you appear to be forgetting you can't put down that outpost without sov. And you can't keep it without sov. So the notion that sov bills and outposts are not related is either you being obtuse or deliberately obtuse (i.e. intentionally misleading).

If you want to do industry in null and your alliance says, "Great, good luck and we hope you make lots of isk...oh and we have additional slot taxes for you to pay." It is because of the sov...that you'll be using to make all those profits.

Roll

Sov Bills & Outposts are related certainly. But there is no Sov cost for an outpost. It is a maintenance free upgrade to a Sov system that only requires a capital cost. Meaning that you can recover the capital cost over time from your increased profits very easily. See the main thread for someone doing the maths that on the current figures a solo large scale industrial pilot can recover the costs on their own in a mere few months, let alone an entire corp or alliance.


Sov is absolutely an on going cost of holding an outpost. Granted, it is not a direct cost, but if you want to keep that station, not get locked out with all your stuff in there (go talk to the Nulli Secunda about how much of their Stuff™ was locked into that dead zoned station), etc. then you have to pay Sov. If you don't pay the sov bill, you lose the station. Its that simple. Ask any alliance that has had a sov bill issue.

Basically it boils down to this. The alliance has gone out and secured the space. You may or may not have been part of that effort. Now you and your alliance mates can enjoy the benefits of that space...but to keep enjoying it you need to pay the sov bills. So many alliances set up taxes for various activities. One of the benefits are outposts. Where you can store your stuff and have a safe haven if hostiles come a knocking. So Sov bills will likely be "a thing" for NS industrialists...if there are industrialists after this change. The NS industrialists will likely be expected to pay their "share" and may very well do it via ADDITIONAL slot taxes.

So...ignoring this cost that NS faces is disingenuous. Yes, NS will have an advantage in terms of refine rates. But at the same time they'll still face the slot tax HS people will face. They'll have to still source low ends (granted one of the later dev blogs could address this, but with the ore compression arrays, I doubt this). They will have higher transportation costs. And they run far greater risks (you can drop caps and super caps on a POS in null, you can lose your space, you can get killed by a roaming gang).* And NS will likely have to buy some of the T2 components in empire as well (more transportation costs). And if you are going to buy billions worth of ore and T2 components that means lots of time spent having freighters moving back and forth in HS. So likely a higher time factor as well.

Quote:
I'm not against null being more attractive for industrialists though, but it should be on a time advantage and availability of local materials advantage. Not on a profit per item advantage. Since on the profit per item you can destroy industrialists from any other zone if you choose to cut your margins, while still making a profit yourself. And there is literally nothing they can do about it.


Hold on here....

HS has had the very advantage you describe for years. Now that the playing field is being leveled somewhat you start complaining?

*And please spare me the "risk is not a factor in null" because why are all the HS industry guys in HS then? Partly to do with the risk. Look at all the blubbering about having to put a BPO in a POS with the up-coming changes.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#68 - 2014-04-28 22:42:04 UTC
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:

Hold on here....

HS has had the very advantage you describe for years. Now that the playing field is being leveled somewhat you start complaining?

And for years I've been agreeing with the Null Sec complaints that the refining difference they faced was unfair, when it was only a 2% advantage that highsec had. And that Nullsec refining should be buffed to be equal to highsec. This is not a 'now I'm punished I complain'. This is a viewpoint I've held the entire time.

Now Null has am 18% advantage, 900% larger margin than highsec currently has, a lot of those Nullsec people crying how 2% assuming max skills was a massive disadvantage are going on about how it's all fair & good. Those are the ones who are all about self interest.

Refining assuming max skills should be equal in all space. It is reasonable if some space has to spend more skill to get that, for example, if highsec had some skill that removed 50% of NPC tax, and standings did the other 50% so you had to have both maxed to do so. But max refining should be equal, not massively biased in favour of one area of space, no matter what the area of space.
Kun'ii Zenya
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#69 - 2014-04-29 04:47:15 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:

Hold on here....

HS has had the very advantage you describe for years. Now that the playing field is being leveled somewhat you start complaining?

And for years I've been agreeing with the Null Sec complaints that the refining difference they faced was unfair, when it was only a 2% advantage that highsec had. And that Nullsec refining should be buffed to be equal to highsec. This is not a 'now I'm punished I complain'. This is a viewpoint I've held the entire time.

Now Null has am 18% advantage, 900% larger margin than highsec currently has, a lot of those Nullsec people crying how 2% assuming max skills was a massive disadvantage are going on about how it's all fair & good. Those are the ones who are all about self interest.

Refining assuming max skills should be equal in all space. It is reasonable if some space has to spend more skill to get that, for example, if highsec had some skill that removed 50% of NPC tax, and standings did the other 50% so you had to have both maxed to do so. But max refining should be equal, not massively biased in favour of one area of space, no matter what the area of space.


Ok, how about you are taxed at a rate in HS equivalent to the rate NS would be taxed to pay for sov? Then we can set all refining equal, deal?
Bob Billyson
Tayto Truck
#70 - 2014-04-29 10:24:34 UTC
In the discussion about Stations and Station upgrades in Null-Sec. One factor has been left out:

This station is not yours forever. If you invest Billions of isk into it, it may be lost in three weeks time. You will then not be able to use this station. This is a lost investment. To prevent this then the asset has to be protected. Protection requires people willing to protect it, and people capable of protecting it. Major wars are not a common occurrence, but they do happen.

Risk is in everything that is Null-sec.
Just because you're highly unlikely to run into someone in a region because of how few people actually live in null, doesn't mean that they won't. And when they do, You don't have concord to protect. Scouts, Intel channels, Poses to huddle up in for protection, all of these are more effort and more cost (Needing to plex an account for a scout for instance).

As long as you don't run into anyone, It's safer than High-sec. If you do, It's NOT. That, and small gang corps will quickly identify where mining, industry and ratting is taking place, and then proceed to camp these areas with Cyno Cloakies, waiting for the best moment, before dropping the hammer and extracting null tears (the best kind).

Yes You have to worry about Suicide gankers in Highsec. But for them, it's either a for fun thing, or a for profit thing. Keep your fits cheap, and find some quiet systems, and you'll be fine.

Unlike Nullsec, where the amount of ore mined per day is advertised to the entire game world.
Kun'ii Zenya
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#71 - 2014-04-29 14:13:58 UTC
Bob Billyson wrote:
In the discussion about Stations and Station upgrades in Null-Sec. One factor has been left out:

This station is not yours forever. If you invest Billions of isk into it, it may be lost in three weeks time. You will then not be able to use this station. This is a lost investment. To prevent this then the asset has to be protected. Protection requires people willing to protect it, and people capable of protecting it. Major wars are not a common occurrence, but they do happen.

Risk is in everything that is Null-sec.
Just because you're highly unlikely to run into someone in a region because of how few people actually live in null, doesn't mean that they won't. And when they do, You don't have concord to protect. Scouts, Intel channels, Poses to huddle up in for protection, all of these are more effort and more cost (Needing to plex an account for a scout for instance).

As long as you don't run into anyone, It's safer than High-sec. If you do, It's NOT. That, and small gang corps will quickly identify where mining, industry and ratting is taking place, and then proceed to camp these areas with Cyno Cloakies, waiting for the best moment, before dropping the hammer and extracting null tears (the best kind).

Yes You have to worry about Suicide gankers in Highsec. But for them, it's either a for fun thing, or a for profit thing. Keep your fits cheap, and find some quiet systems, and you'll be fine.

Unlike Nullsec, where the amount of ore mined per day is advertised to the entire game world.


Pretty much this. Yes, my time i null is often "boring" in that I don't run into others (i.e. non-blues). However, every gate I jump has the possibility of running into trouble.

Various commenters...ones who should know better (e.g. Ripard Teg) keep making this claim. "Oh null is often very safe." Yeah, and when it isn't if you can't get a gang together there isn't much you can do...and this can happen with no warning. Not at all like HS were you get a nice e-mail letting you know you've been war decced and when the fighting can start.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#72 - 2014-04-29 15:10:47 UTC
Tarikla wrote:

The industry buff for null sec is NOT to make alliance hire pure industrialists. It's to end the whole "we are living in null but buy everything from jita because it's cheaper" nonsense.


But it isn't nonsense, is it. You'll have a very hard time selling in large volumes locally. There's some advantage to building in volume, especially if you're also inventing in volume (for T2 particularly). Also Jita is a great price optimiser. If you're relying on local prices at your local market which almost certainly isn't as busy as Jita hence not as optimised, you have no idea how far over the odds you're paying.

The reason you can say "10% over Jita price" is because Jita is so busy and there's an optimised price there to be the benchmark. This is why people will continue to buy there and your prices will continue to be fixed relative to the prices there regardless of where you are. The only question is whether or not the BS you'll have to go through in null in order to build it there will give you a significant enough advantage over the price optimised at Jita or not. I don't think it will, hence I don't think industry will "move to null".
HeXxploiT
Doomheim
#73 - 2014-04-29 17:39:53 UTC
Perhaps the summer patch will be the point at which the indy corps will, due to the new changes, finally have the profitability to either offer cheap ships or even straight up isk to the alliance to warrant their presence.
Of course you'll still have the grunts who are forced to do the daily grind and bash pvp and aren't even allowed to train to fly the ships they want bitching about the industry guys not doing anything but such is the life of a grunt.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#74 - 2014-04-30 01:58:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:


Ok, how about you are taxed at a rate in HS equivalent to the rate NS would be taxed to pay for sov? Then we can set all refining equal, deal?

Do I also get access to 10/10 DED sites with X type drops, officer rats, moon goo that I can always access, vastly improved PI rates, infinite ore anomalies, and the superior station abilities that you get in Null? If I get everything you get in Null, while in high sec, you have a deal.
However I think you won't like that.

It's simple. Outposts have no upkeep. You can tax lawyer away and try and ascribe costs, but they are merely a capital investment.
For that investment you should not get permanently cheaper production. Faster maybe, easier maybe, but not cheaper per item.

For an imagine if as to what easier could mean.
What if Null Outposts counted as a refining implant, with the upgrades to the refining altering it from 1% for a non Min non upgraded outpost, to 4% for a max upgraded min outpost. But this doesn't stack with the actual implant.

This is an advantage since it means you don't have to worry about getting podded and loosing the implant, and you can put a different PvP implant or harvesting implant or whatever into that slot instead.
While the high sec industrialist has to pay the opportunity cost of not having those other implants for his refining.
But it doesn't make your 'perfect' refine any better, it simply makes it easier to get to.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2014-04-30 08:57:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Gilbaron
The upkeep cost for outposts is in sov fees and the gazillions of isk you need to invest in your combat forces. You can't have an outpost without taking and defending it. (Or pay someone else to do it for you)

If themittani.com is correct, the Halloween war costed up to 35 trillion isk. That's 35.000.000.000.000 ISK
Apelacja
Sad Najwyzszy
#76 - 2014-04-30 09:00:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Apelacja
difference will be 5 % from me + 2-3% from producing parts + 2-3 % from producing product and it is when we compare to production in ls. If u compare it to hs then difference is higher.


The same is about research and invention. To invent something u need to pay job cost twice in hs what is around 5% and 6 % due to CCP data. In summary it isimpressive amount of taxes if u add production tax to it.....crap. In null u can make everything 4 times cheaper.

when i was calculating for my purpose only taxes will be 15 b per month. so i can pay 5 b per station ( 33 slots) in null and still make 5 b profit if i compare to hs.


However without compression trasnportig stuff to null can be problematic. The same is about building supers. Howeve if industry will move to null then it will be possible to buy mins in null to but who knows what would happen.
Bob Billyson
Tayto Truck
#77 - 2014-04-30 22:10:43 UTC
Apelacja wrote:
difference will be 5 % from me + 2-3% from producing parts + 2-3 % from producing product and it is when we compare to production in ls. If u compare it to hs then difference is higher.


The same is about research and invention. To invent something u need to pay job cost twice in hs what is around 5% and 6 % due to CCP data. In summary it isimpressive amount of taxes if u add production tax to it.....crap. In null u can make everything 4 times cheaper.

when i was calculating for my purpose only taxes will be 15 b per month. so i can pay 5 b per station ( 33 slots) in null and still make 5 b profit if i compare to hs.


However without compression trasnportig stuff to null can be problematic. The same is about building supers. Howeve if industry will move to null then it will be possible to buy mins in null to but who knows what would happen.



Then suddenly this:

Jump drive changes
Ginger Barbarella
#78 - 2014-04-30 22:13:52 UTC
Bob Billyson wrote:
Then suddenly this:

Jump drive changes


50% increase... This should be fun to watch.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
penifSMASH
ElitistOps
Snuffed Out
#79 - 2014-04-30 23:11:55 UTC  |  Edited by: penifSMASH
This thread has derailed into a Null vs High-sec discussion, but to answer the OP...

The reason null alliances don't typically recruit industry-only corps is because only two things matter:
1) Having FCs with the confidence to lead fleets
2) Having enough active PvPers that join fleets to make them successful

If you want to survive, you have to win fights. Simple as that. Null alliances can always import from high sec and PvPers will always find a way to afford buying their ship if they think the fights are worth it, so having a null-based local supply of cheaper ships isn't a high priority. The only exception to this is supercaps because they can only be produced in 0.0, but even PL managed to amass the largest supercapital fleet in the game while not holding any sov for more than 3 years straight.
Kun'ii Zenya
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#80 - 2014-05-01 00:02:38 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:


Ok, how about you are taxed at a rate in HS equivalent to the rate NS would be taxed to pay for sov? Then we can set all refining equal, deal?

Do I also get access to 10/10 DED sites with X type drops, officer rats, moon goo that I can always access, vastly improved PI rates, infinite ore anomalies, and the superior station abilities that you get in Null? If I get everything you get in Null, while in high sec, you have a deal.
However I think you won't like that.

It's simple. Outposts have no upkeep. You can tax lawyer away and try and ascribe costs, but they are merely a capital investment.
For that investment you should not get permanently cheaper production. Faster maybe, easier maybe, but not cheaper per item.

For an imagine if as to what easier could mean.
What if Null Outposts counted as a refining implant, with the upgrades to the refining altering it from 1% for a non Min non upgraded outpost, to 4% for a max upgraded min outpost. But this doesn't stack with the actual implant.

This is an advantage since it means you don't have to worry about getting podded and loosing the implant, and you can put a different PvP implant or harvesting implant or whatever into that slot instead.
While the high sec industrialist has to pay the opportunity cost of not having those other implants for his refining.
But it doesn't make your 'perfect' refine any better, it simply makes it easier to get to.


Why don't you just move to NS? You seem to want all the benefits, or are the risks too much for you?

BTW you don't know much about NS.

Players don't get access to moon goo...at least not the high end planets. If you are lucky and build up some trust with a corp you might get to help out with running POS's that extract said material, but it will go to the corp/alliance. Not the person doing the work. In that sense you'll have access to moon goo, but you wont be able to use it directly.

Outposts do have upkeep and you are being deliberately obtuse. If you don't have Sov in that system you cannot access that outpost unless the people who do have sov are kind and nice and gentle and give you docking rights. No docking rights means you can't get your stuff.

Now, you don't have to pay specifically for the outpost, but you do need to pay sov. Yes, you pay the same sov with or without an outpost, but outposts make space more valuable (go check the rental alliances, systems with an outpost rent for far more). The notion that there is no costs associated with an outpost is just errant nonsense.

You are quite simply wrong here.