These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev blog: Researching, the Future

First post First post First post
Author
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#501 - 2014-04-29 14:27:23 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

I thiiiiiink that jobs lasting more than 30 days are fine provided they're single-run. Certainly that works for manufacturing, otherwise it'd be impossible to build titans already. In any case, we're going to make sure that long single-run jobs work fine :)

As to people with ME10 Titan BPOs, that's ~4 years of research time under the current system. I'll go check if any exist, but I doubt it.

That's correct, a +1 ME, +1 PE, or 1-run copy can always be installed even if it exceeds 30 days.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#502 - 2014-04-29 14:50:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Cyrillian Voth wrote:
CCP_Greyscale wrote:

We're very un-keen on making any blueprints worse as a result of this change, that feels far more painful than "wasted time" and a better blueprint.

Time credit is something we could investigate, although it potentially requires a lot of work to allow you to cash it in.


TL;DR: Do you agree with the principle that the expansion should not make it harder for new industrialists to compete with those who established themselves before the expansion?

I'm concerned that you appear to have your priorities backwards here. Some owners of well-researched BPOs (especially those with high ranks) and tech II BPOs will gain an even greater advantage over newcomers from this change. Industry should be designed to allow newer players to make a profit if they're smart; instead you risk further entrenching the dominance of rich older players. The fact that they will squeal should not be a distraction from what's best for the game.

An example: Peter Plutocrat has a Raven BPO researched to ME 14, which took him under two months, cost next to nothing, and translates to a perfect ME10% under the new system. Along comes Natalia Newbie wanting to break into the Raven market, and decides to start by researching her BPO to ME10%. Not only does this cost her a fair chunk of ISK, it takes her nearly six months to achieve the same result. Meanwhile Peter is laughing all the way to the bank.

A solution: calculate the time invested in research, and re-apply it under the new system. Some BPOs will get worse as a result; too bad. They may squeal, but those owners still have the advantage of having done all that research at a lower cost under the old system, and there's still a level playing field for them to research further if that's what's required.

Similarly, the copying changes give an increase of several percentage points in the throughput (and hence profitability) of tech II BPOs; you're right that it's not a disaster for invention, but that's beside the point: it makes the gerontocrats' advantage greater when you should be working to reduce it.

A solution: find a way to increase the cost of copying tech II BPOs. You could require additional materials for copying (e.g. datacores as well as data sheets), require the use of expensive expert teams for tech II copy jobs, change the copy duration on tech II BPOs, etc. The aim should be to ensure that tech II BPO profitability either stays the same as it is now, or goes down.

I think most T2 BPO owners will be fine with modifications made to the system to keep things fair. Heck the ability to make a BPC at ALL in any kind of reasonable time frame will be a breath of fresh air.

However I don't see a case for penalizing T2 BPO owners, as most of the changes have been crafted to try as much as possible not to penalize anyone with this transition.

CCP will also have to take into account the buff that reduced copy times represents for people involved in Invention.

Even if everyone else gets a buff, you won't hear too much squawking if T2 holders at least can roughly maintain their status quo (although the option to create either the end product or a 1 run bpc in roughly the same time frame would be appreciated, if possible).

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

DireNecessity
Mayhem-Industries
#503 - 2014-04-29 15:00:44 UTC  |  Edited by: DireNecessity
CCP Greyscale wrote:



Yeah, pretty much. I think mapping 100 points to the current curve should be doable, we've already had to interpolate to get ten steps out of five, in principle extending that to 100 is doable.



>>><<<

Do This!
100 points is cognitively simple (we understand percentages)
It will better map the specificity of the old system onto the new system
It will allow contemplating decisions about small improvements (see below)

In other news:
I'm puzzled by the decision to map the *results* of previous research onto the new system. I'd rather see *time invested* in the old system (it would have to be extrapolated) onto the new system. Nothing is lost this way. X hours of research is still X hours of research. It's OK if formally optimal blueprints are no longer optimal since everybody is in the same boat. Researching wasn't only about reaching optimal, rather it was often about obtaining comparative advantage over the competition. If optimal was within reach in the old system you grabbed it because you knew your competition would. Optimal blueprints aren't trophies, they are comparative advantage.

If time invested is mapped, the comparative advantage landscape remains intact through the transition. It's ok if some blueprints are no longer optimal. Things change and one may decide that it looks like blueprint X is going back into the research bin.

I imagine somewhere out there are people that over researched blueprints in the old system. Now they get to cackle, "I knew that time investment was going to pay off some day. Time to collect baby!" I'm not one of those people but I look forward to hearing from them.
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#504 - 2014-04-29 15:03:50 UTC
I would prefer the update of old bp's to use research time as the basis for the new ME/TE level.

If a bp has 10days of research before the swap it should have 10 days research after the swap ( rounded up )
and research time that gets capped should be refunded.

This keeps the value of reseach done before and after the patch on a similar footing in terms of time spent to get to a certain level.

with all the changes happening to waste removeal and going to a linear progression from a dimiinishing returns one there are always going to be differences in the build requirements.

Build requirements for manufacturing items have changed on many items many time in the past.
Manufacturers arn't going to care if there inputs change , everyone will be in the same position compared to other manufactures running of similar level prints.


The current plan capping al old lvl 10 will result in practically all old non capital ship BPO's being perfect build.


As far as refunding research time goes.
Whether or not the old bp update plans change or not I think that lost research time should be refunded at the rate of

ME ( cheapest possible cost for running one lab slot on a pos ) * research time lost
PE ( average NPC station lab slot cost ) * research time lost.

Only on BPO's
No refunding to BPC's of course.
Regan Rotineque
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#505 - 2014-04-29 15:05:29 UTC
adding another voice to the 100 lvl idea - tjis would allow much more flexibility in terms of conversion and create far fewer 'perfect' scenarios, and at the same time reward those who invested additional time to 'market shape' their BPO collection for the purposes of selling bpc's or bpc kits.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#506 - 2014-04-29 15:09:58 UTC
Cyrillian Voth wrote:
CCP_Greyscale wrote:

We're very un-keen on making any blueprints worse as a result of this change, that feels far more painful than "wasted time" and a better blueprint.

Time credit is something we could investigate, although it potentially requires a lot of work to allow you to cash it in.


TL;DR: Do you agree with the principle that the expansion should not make it harder for new industrialists to compete with those who established themselves before the expansion?

I'm concerned that you appear to have your priorities backwards here. Some owners of well-researched BPOs (especially those with high ranks) and tech II BPOs will gain an even greater advantage over newcomers from this change. Industry should be designed to allow newer players to make a profit if they're smart; instead you risk further entrenching the dominance of rich older players. The fact that they will squeal should not be a distraction from what's best for the game.

An example: Peter Plutocrat has a Raven BPO researched to ME 14, which took him under two months, cost next to nothing, and translates to a perfect ME10% under the new system. Along comes Natalia Newbie wanting to break into the Raven market, and decides to start by researching her BPO to ME10%. Not only does this cost her a fair chunk of ISK, it takes her nearly six months to achieve the same result. Meanwhile Peter is laughing all the way to the bank.

A solution: calculate the time invested in research, and re-apply it under the new system. Some BPOs will get worse as a result; too bad. They may squeal, but those owners still have the advantage of having done all that research at a lower cost under the old system, and there's still a level playing field for them to research further if that's what's required.

Similarly, the copying changes give an increase of several percentage points in the throughput (and hence profitability) of tech II BPOs; you're right that it's not a disaster for invention, but that's beside the point: it makes the gerontocrats' advantage greater when you should be working to reduce it.

A solution: find a way to increase the cost of copying tech II BPOs. You could require additional materials for copying (e.g. datacores as well as data sheets), require the use of expensive expert teams for tech II copy jobs, change the copy duration on tech II BPOs, etc. The aim should be to ensure that tech II BPO profitability either stays the same as it is now, or goes down.


In principle, yes. In practice, I'm not sure how much difference it actually makes - yes, a new industrialist will have a somewhat larger gap to close with a five-year industrialist after the change, but the gap is already pretty massive and I'm not sure this additional hurdle is all that significant. Willing to be argued around, though.

Builder AlphaOne wrote:
Greyscale: I point out that having the training job run for excessive lengths of time [148k training units from level nine to ten] is so long for some BPs that virtually no BPs bought after the change will ever be trained to ME 10%. Example, that training time for a T1 cruiser would exceed 68 days and for a battleship would exceed 135 days. At some point [capital BPs??] the training length required to reach ME 10% is so long that virtually no new BPs will be researched to that level, thus cementing the cost advantage of those already at that level when the proposed change occurs.

It is already too late to buy and train any BPO with new difficulty level beyond that of a battleship to [old] ME 10 before the potential patch date. [T1 battleship would require 55.6 days]. Thus, the advantage of everyone who already owns a capital BPO and has at least ME 10 by "summer" is now virtually permanent.


The workaround for this is to adapt the skill point training scheme to BP research. Keep the records in very small units but only allow translation to production [of items or copies] at the ME percent level the cumulative underlying time indicates,

AND allow research times to be added in less than full percent level increments.


Thus, that hypothetical Titan BPO could be reasonably researched to ME 3% in a few months, and then researched piecemeal [in multiple separate smaller than 30 day steps] to ME 4% or higher off and on over the next months. A copy made in between the small steps would have ME 3% until the cumulative training time required for higher ME % is reached.




I don't think I agree that nobody will ever max out a battleship BPO after this. If the extra percent is actually relevant (which I assume it is, in T1 manufacturing), 60 days does not seem an unattainable number.

Banko Mato wrote:
Hm, somehow i must have missed this thread or maybe i focused too much on the industry UI..
Anyways, after having only skimmed the first few pages, i need one question answered:

Is the fact, that current ME/TE 10 (or 11+) results in future perfect value, set in stone already?



Nope, none of the numbers are set in stone.

Valterra Craven
#507 - 2014-04-29 15:17:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Valterra Craven
CCP Greyscale wrote:


I don't think I agree that nobody will ever max out a battleship BPO after this. If the extra percent is actually relevant (which I assume it is, in T1 manufacturing), 60 days does not seem an unattainable number.



You don't agree? Has CCP done any ROI calculations on how much the 60 days of research on a high rank BPO are going to cost?

If you dont know what I mean, under the new research system, how long is it going to take someone to recoup the money it costs them to research that last level of ME when they are producing off of the BPO? So if it cost me a 100mil to research that last bit and my savings is 100k, I'm going to have to produce 100bs before I break even. If it took me a day to produce 1 bs the actual time it would take to realize the benefit from that last bit of ME would be 160 days... not 60.


^Also obviously I'm pulling numbers out of my butt here, but that was just to make an easy example.
Valterra Craven
#508 - 2014-04-29 15:19:51 UTC
And seriously though, have you guys done ANY calculations about how much you estimate prices for things will increase after the summer? It seems as though you guys are making things almost multiplicatively move expensive with each new dev blog you release.
Annia Aurel
J-CORP
Goonswarm Federation
#509 - 2014-04-29 15:24:43 UTC
Quote:
Our current line of thinking is to do the math such that no currently researched blueprint gets any worse in terms of the bonus it provides.

This would mean that ME/TE 1 become ME 5%/TE 10%, ME/TE 5-9 become ME 9%/TE 18%, and anything over ME/TE 10 currently move to ME 10%/TE 20%.


That system is heavily exploitable. That way, people will research thousands of battleship BPOs to ME/TE 10 before patchday, and any higher researched BPO will lose their value overnight.

Rather, the translation should scale with blueprint 'tier', e.g. while an frigate BPO ME 10 becomes a ME 10%,
it should need a battleship BPO ME 100 to become a ME 10%.

Then, the time to research something (in terms of usefulness/value) before patch day will be similar to after patch day, give or take.

Don't punish those who heavily invested into their BPOs.
(And yes, it does make sense to research a battleship BPO to way more than ME 10.)
Annia Aurel
J-CORP
Goonswarm Federation
#510 - 2014-04-29 15:29:45 UTC
And, after reading more comments, yes, I agree: make it so that

time to research before patch day = time to research after patch day

... at the *upper* end of the ME/TE spectrum


(And dont cut off at some lowly point.)
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#511 - 2014-04-29 15:50:38 UTC
w/r/t the issue of "old" bpos being worth more than "new" bpos: most of those markets will be glutted with perfect bpos and the new industrialist will just buy one of those instead of researching an npc bought one

that's already the case in supercaps, a researched bpo goes for less than NPC, it is not a real problem

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#512 - 2014-04-29 16:14:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Seith Kali
There are really, really few examples of items where ME100 is worth having over current ME15 or so. If you needed ME100 battleship BPOs to compete in the T1 market, for example, T1 would be as impenetrable as T2 bpo markets. T1 would be only accessible to those who have invested an enormous amount of isk with a really poor ROI.

It shouldn't be this way, Greyscale has got the new ME levels pretty good in my opinion. T1 should be accessible for new industrialists, with highsec guys progressing on to T2 or T3 as they grow and moving to more dangerous space if they want to pursue capitals.

Current ME/PE10 doesn't tie a t1 subcap BPO up for years locking new players out. The proposed transition looks pretty good to me on this level. If a player has an over-researched BPO that was a poor decision to begin with, at least now others won't be tricked into making the same mistake.

TL;DR Good scaling, greyscale.

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege. 

CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#513 - 2014-04-29 16:50:00 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:


I don't think I agree that nobody will ever max out a battleship BPO after this. If the extra percent is actually relevant (which I assume it is, in T1 manufacturing), 60 days does not seem an unattainable number.



You don't agree? Has CCP done any ROI calculations on how much the 60 days of research on a high rank BPO are going to cost?

If you dont know what I mean, under the new research system, how long is it going to take someone to recoup the money it costs them to research that last level of ME when they are producing off of the BPO? So if it cost me a 100mil to research that last bit and my savings is 100k, I'm going to have to produce 100bs before I break even. If it took me a day to produce 1 bs the actual time it would take to realize the benefit from that last bit of ME would be 160 days... not 60.


^Also obviously I'm pulling numbers out of my butt here, but that was just to make an easy example.


The cost will be highly variable depending on where you choose to do it. For a BS you should be able to get it at a pretty reasonable price.

160 days does not seem like a long time period when you're talking about a billion-ISK blueprint. T2 BPOs change hands for decades' worth of profit; EVE industrialists, at the high-end, play a long game. On top of that, either the 1% is a big enough difference that it matters and people *will* research it, or it's a small enough difference that people won't bother researching it, at which point it doesn't matter.
Valterra Craven
#514 - 2014-04-29 16:56:09 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:


I don't think I agree that nobody will ever max out a battleship BPO after this. If the extra percent is actually relevant (which I assume it is, in T1 manufacturing), 60 days does not seem an unattainable number.



You don't agree? Has CCP done any ROI calculations on how much the 60 days of research on a high rank BPO are going to cost?

If you dont know what I mean, under the new research system, how long is it going to take someone to recoup the money it costs them to research that last level of ME when they are producing off of the BPO? So if it cost me a 100mil to research that last bit and my savings is 100k, I'm going to have to produce 100bs before I break even. If it took me a day to produce 1 bs the actual time it would take to realize the benefit from that last bit of ME would be 160 days... not 60.


^Also obviously I'm pulling numbers out of my butt here, but that was just to make an easy example.


The cost will be highly variable depending on where you choose to do it. For a BS you should be able to get it at a pretty reasonable price.

160 days does not seem like a long time period when you're talking about a billion-ISK blueprint. T2 BPOs change hands for decades' worth of profit; EVE industrialists, at the high-end, play a long game. On top of that, either the 1% is a big enough difference that it matters and people *will* research it, or it's a small enough difference that people won't bother researching it, at which point it doesn't matter.


If it doesn't matter than why have it in game at all?

The numbers I was using are pure fiction, I have no idea if that will be the cost of the total ROI. And honestly that was besides the point.

My question to CCP was, have YOU done any ROI calculations on what would be worth it and not worth it in terms of these changes? Do you have any idea(aka estimates) how much inflation/deflation will happen when all of these changes hit in summer?

If the answer to either of the above questions is no... then you shouldn't role these out till the answer is yes.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#515 - 2014-04-29 17:00:18 UTC

As a t2 inventor, I'd like some clarification of how negative ME levels alter the build requirements of an item.

For new ME values:
-6 == +60% Material requirements
-5 == +50% Material requirements
-4 == +40% Material requirements
-3 == +30% Material requirements
-2 == +20% Material requirements
-1 == +10% Material requirements
0 = No additional Material requirements (although this will be 11% above the current perfect build costs today).
1 = -1% Material requirements
2 = -2% Material requirements
3 = -3% Material requirements
4 = -4% Material requirements
5 = -5% Material requirements
6 = -6% Material requirements
7 = -7% Material requirements
8 = -8% Material requirements
9 = -9% Material requirements
10 = -10% Material requirements

And Building in a Nullsec Factory Outpost may grant an additional Material reduction of up to 5%, multiplicatively applied.
So an invented T2 BPC without decryptors will require round(base materials * 1.4)?
In a fully upgraded nullsec outpost, that invented t2 BPC will require round(base materials * 1.4 * .95)?
Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#516 - 2014-04-29 17:25:09 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Seith Kali wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:

It is evident you haven't understood how ME will work in the new system.


Firstly, I have. Secondly, reducing the barrier to entry for T1 at the BPO level is an excellent change in my opinion. I'm sorry your ME100 raven won't realise the ROI you envisaged.

It would make no difference to the barrier to entry as can be seen in the posts below.


Of course it would. If 10 became perfect then all the BPO's where the optimal is greater than 10 less investment will be necessary. This will be offset somewhat but the research time changes, but from the hints we have seen of teams we will be able to buy big advantages there.

Massively researching T1 BPOs has never been an intelligent choice, the fact so many players were foolish enough to do so indicates two things. Firstly they don't think things through correctly, reducing credibility of their protests on this issue. Secondly, the system was confusing enough to make it look like a good idea to a number of people.

These changes do not hurt them, they simply don't put players who made smarter research choices at a disadvantage. If my set of ME 14 cruiser BPOs became redundant because of the whining of the vocal few, I would be terribly upset. There are an awful lot of people who DID make good research choices and hurting the relative value of their BPO's because of people like you trying to justify your foolishness is ridiculous.

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege. 

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#517 - 2014-04-29 17:43:31 UTC
In other words, excessive ME ratings on BPCs wasn't functional; it was literally peacock plumage, designed to attract the dimwitted and math-deficient.

Plumage just got nerfed. Sorry.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#518 - 2014-04-29 17:49:24 UTC
lol only goons in favor of this

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.

GeeBee
Backwater Redux
Tactical Narcotics Team
#519 - 2014-04-29 17:53:43 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:


I thiiiiiink that jobs lasting more than 30 days are fine provided they're single-run. Certainly that works for manufacturing, otherwise it'd be impossible to build titans already. In any case, we're going to make sure that long single-run jobs work fine :)

As to people with ME10 Titan BPOs, that's ~4 years of research time under the current system. I'll go check if any exist, but I doubt it.


its not just that its any ME5 or PE5 is going to be turned into an ME9% or PE18%

This means a ME5 titan bpo now has been researched for 1185 Days then turns into ME9% which takes 7336 days to duplicate in the new system.

PE5 titan BPO (these may not exist, ME5s do for sure) 1777d before turns into PE18% which would take 11003 days after.

The current system is fine, this redesign of the ME/PE system is unneeded, just fix the copy times.

It would seem the logic of the 10 level system is to simplify it for new players or players new to industry, but at the same time it penalizes any new industry by excessively harsh research times compared to existing blueprints.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#520 - 2014-04-29 17:56:36 UTC
GeeBee wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:


I thiiiiiink that jobs lasting more than 30 days are fine provided they're single-run. Certainly that works for manufacturing, otherwise it'd be impossible to build titans already. In any case, we're going to make sure that long single-run jobs work fine :)

As to people with ME10 Titan BPOs, that's ~4 years of research time under the current system. I'll go check if any exist, but I doubt it.


its not just that its any ME5 or PE5 is going to be turned into an ME9% or PE18%

This means a ME5 titan bpo now has been researched for 1185 Days then turns into ME9% which takes 7336 days to duplicate in the new system.

PE5 titan BPO (these may not exist, ME5s do for sure) 1777d before turns into PE18% which would take 11003 days after.

The current system is fine, this redesign of the ME/PE system is unneeded, just fix the copy times.

It would seem the logic of the 10 level system is to simplify it for new players or players new to industry, but at the same time it penalizes any new industry by excessively harsh research times compared to existing blueprints.


Yeah, that's fair. I'll think about this some more.