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Dev blog: Researching, the Future

First post First post First post
Author
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#341 - 2014-04-28 22:43:22 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Quote:
I"m sorry, where did you get the figure that only 22% of Pilgrims came from invention?



Good reference I hadn't seen that.
The 2/3's of the list that are dominated by invention don't support the "T2 BPO's are destroying the market" argument very well though. Smile

Many of the items where the percentage of BPO production is higher are items that are of limited popularity, and I wouldn't be surprised if they represented items where a larger than average number of the BPOs were awarded.

I'd also like to see those numbers on Pilgrim now that they are in better shape than 2 years ago, as demand is up for them now... thus encouraging Invention and affecting those percentages. Slow selling items, you must admit, are much more likely to have a large percentage of their stock created from BPO's.


Looking at across Eve figures, in March 2014, 1496 pilgrims sold. In March 2012, 1864 sold.

Looking at just the Forge, 820 in March 2014, 982 in March 2012.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Plug in Baby
Broken Hearts Love Chocolate
#342 - 2014-04-28 22:44:41 UTC
Querns wrote:
Plug in Baby wrote:

If not give us all our research time in a pool to spend on patch day so the people who made the sensible decision in the past can make a new educated decision on where to spend it.

This is not a particularly smart idea. This will let you bootstrap an insane number of new blueprints to perfect status without having to do anything but scoop up unnecessarily high level BPOs.


Yeah sure it has some downsides, but why punish the players who haven't done anything silly and are, from the sounds of it going to get punished needlessly.

I really like the BPC changes but this ME TE stuff just seems to have a massive impact of a huge number of players just to dumb down a system is already extremely simple.

This is not a forum alt, this is a forum main.

CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#343 - 2014-04-28 22:46:08 UTC
Plug in Baby wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
the dropoff in value of ME after 20 was so severe that only fools researched anything besides capital component bpos over that, fools should not be rewarded for their foolishness


So what about those capital producers?

For doing the sensible thing we are now going to be rewarded with ME 100 compontent BPOs suddenly worth no more than a very basic BPO. Great.

The double whammy is our well optimized ME 2-6 capital hull BPOs will suddenly get a load of extra waste.


Sounds like this change didn't even consider some BPO types, I'd have liked to see some proper examples.


If not please give us all our research time in a pool to spend on patch day so the people who made the sensible decision in the past can make a new educated decision on where to spend it.



There should not be "a load of extra waste", I am not sure where you're seeing that?
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#344 - 2014-04-28 22:46:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
GeeBee wrote:
I disagree with the upwards scaling wall of the level progression.

In the current system ME/PE 10 can be obtained rather easily, in the proposed system it will take a long time.

The following numbers are using no modifiers on these research time to ME 10
Frigate 13D 21H 20m After 102.24 Days
Cruiser 27D 18H 40m After 204.48 Days
BS/BC 41D 16H After 306.72 Days
Carriers/Dreads 1.62Y After 11.94 Years
Supercarriers 3.25Y After 23.89 Years
Titans 6.49Y After 47.81 Years

Take into account these numbers are using no skills or pos to show base values, its possible someone could have bought a titan BPO and researched it in a pos for 3.5 years and gotten it to ME 10. The proposed new scaling system not only rewards players who invested heavily in the old system but punishes any new players trying to get into production.

Primarily the level scaling on levels 6-10, Rather than continued exponential increases it would be better to plateau out with minor increases per level, which is what we get now.

Since ME 1 currently is Now Level 5 then the research time from level 1 to level 5 should be roughly equal to the total research time of ME 1 which i think has been achieved, but the research times Level 10 is a nightmare, you're trading diminishing returns in material saved for soul crushing time wasting, which i believe is just bad policy, at least try to keep the soul crushing time wasting to what it is now rather than punish everyone that hasn't done something yet.


So, if ME 10 now will equate to ME 10 in the future, you absolutely want to research your Ship BPO's to ME 10. (Alright, that's not realistic for Carrier / Dread BPO's).

Current times:
120000 Base ME Research time: Current time to ME 10: 13.9 days. Future time to ME 10: 90 days. This includes frigate BPOs. Large Rigs
180000 Base ME Research time: Current time to ME 10: 20.9 days. Future tmie to ME 10: 135 days. This includes Destroyers, Medium Bubbles,
240000 Base ME Research time: Current time to ME 10: 27.7 days. Future time to ME 10: 180 days. This includes Cruiser, Industrials, and Capital rigs.
360000 Base ME Research time: Current time to ME 10: 41.6 days. Future time to ME 10: 270 days. This includes Battlecruiser, Battleship, mobile Cyno Inhibitor, Mobile Scan Inhibitor, Large Bubbles, Capital Modules, & Cyno Generators.

Note, you will save time researching things to ME 10 now as opposed to after the changes, so get to work!

The proposed changes really benefit players with already researched BPOs.

What I'm saying is, that by researching your BPO's today to ME 10, after the change your BPO's will also be ME 10, and you'll have a huge time savings over a new player that wishes to match yoru ME efficiency.
Plug in Baby
Broken Hearts Love Chocolate
#345 - 2014-04-28 22:49:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Plug in Baby
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Greatly penalizes capital BPOs how?


I'm very alarmed that the consequences of this haven't already been considered.

Won't BPOs that are currently optimal have some waste if they don't go up to ME 10?

Not to mention these levels have taken months to research and post patch will be the fastest to train.

This is not a forum alt, this is a forum main.

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#346 - 2014-04-28 22:50:02 UTC
To answer Greyscale's question:

We will need the formulas required to take the numbers from the SDE, plug in an arbitrary ME and TE (+ whatever is going on with Teams or anything else like that) and get out the same numbers which we get in EVE.

And to be able to work out the pricing used for run costs Blink

Pretty much we just need all the little caveats like 'floor() here, round() here' so we can reimplement it.

Handy for things like blueprint calculators (far less important now, but still useful) shopping lists, etc, etc.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Plug in Baby
Broken Hearts Love Chocolate
#347 - 2014-04-28 22:53:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Plug in Baby
CCP Greyscale wrote:


There should not be "a load of extra waste", I am not sure where you're seeing that?


I just don't understand why such a trivially simple system needs to be changed. What is hard to understand about 0.1/(1+ME) really?

This is not a forum alt, this is a forum main.

Theo Sotken
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#348 - 2014-04-28 22:54:16 UTC
Querns wrote:
Plug in Baby wrote:

If not give us all our research time in a pool to spend on patch day so the people who made the sensible decision in the past can make a new educated decision on where to spend it.

This is not a particularly smart idea. This will let you bootstrap an insane number of new blueprints to perfect status without having to do anything but scoop up unnecessarily high level BPOs.


But wouldn't we already have invested that time in research anyway so we gain nothing extra?
As for 'scooping' unnecessarily high bpo's do you mean paying someone who researched them a fair price for them.

Please note the costs and effort in researching the originals was not 'free' by any stretch of the imagination and neither was it some crazy mad idea to get high research on blueprints as doing so added isk value to those items.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#349 - 2014-04-28 22:55:43 UTC
Theo Sotken wrote:
Querns wrote:
Plug in Baby wrote:

If not give us all our research time in a pool to spend on patch day so the people who made the sensible decision in the past can make a new educated decision on where to spend it.

This is not a particularly smart idea. This will let you bootstrap an insane number of new blueprints to perfect status without having to do anything but scoop up unnecessarily high level BPOs.


But wouldn't we already have invested that time in research anyway so we gain nothing extra?
As for 'scooping' unnecessarily high bpo's do you mean paying someone who researched them a fair price for them.

Please note the costs and effort in researching the originals was not 'free' by any stretch of the imagination and neither was it some crazy mad idea to get high research on blueprints as doing so added isk value to those items.

Basically, you want to be reimbursed for performing unnecessary amounts of research and wasting your time by translating all that wasted time onto new blueprints. I don't think that is a very good idea.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#350 - 2014-04-28 22:57:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
Plug in Baby wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Greatly penalizes capital BPOs how?


I'm very alarmed that the consequences of this haven't already been considered.

Capitals are researched to low values ME 2-6, which gives great results currently but will see them having 5% waste post patch from my understanding.

Not to mention these levels have taken months to research and post patch will be the fastest to train.


Researching ME Levels 1-5 will take less time in the new system.
Researching ME Levels 6-10 will take more time in the new system.

Also realize... ME 1 will become ME 5 in the new system. So your current research is much more valuable than future research!
TigerXtrm
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#351 - 2014-04-28 22:59:04 UTC  |  Edited by: TigerXtrm
God there are many people in this thread who lack the basic ability to properly read more than 3 lines in a dev blog. People are pulling figures out of their collective asses all over the place that aren't even mentioned in the blog and make assumptions that make no sense at all while all the information is present in the blog. It's all there people. Make an effort before posting...

Props to everyone else who has been number crunching these past few hours and coming up with actual useful information.

My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things!

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LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#352 - 2014-04-28 22:59:22 UTC
Mara Pahrdi wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Yes you may need to do some flying around.

So basically you move the clickfest from the industry ui to the overview ui Lol.



No. To the log-in, launch, deliver copies, install copy jobs.

All my alts will become copy alts.


Hmm a stealth "nerf the forum alt" since all alt slots will become copy alts?
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#353 - 2014-04-28 23:00:08 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
(i am a capital producer, you see)

Actually, you not a mere capital producer. You are also "Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division".

And, regardless of what other players say about you personally, and about the Goons, you folks are, without a doubt, the absolute best at financially exploiting any changes that CCP makes to the game, particularly those changes for which CCP has not fully considered all of the possible ramifications or domino effects.

So, quite honestly, any change of which you approve, probably deserves a much closer examination by the CCP devs.... :)
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#354 - 2014-04-28 23:01:53 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
To answer Greyscale's question:

We will need the formulas required to take the numbers from the SDE, plug in an arbitrary ME and TE (+ whatever is going on with Teams or anything else like that) and get out the same numbers which we get in EVE.

And to be able to work out the pricing used for run costs Blink

Pretty much we just need all the little caveats like 'floor() here, round() here' so we can reimplement it.

Handy for things like blueprint calculators (far less important now, but still useful) shopping lists, etc, etc.


Yeah OK, rounding I can see. Everything else is WYSIWYG, you shouldn't need :math: to tell you that 6% ME means multiply build cost by 0.94 :) I'll try and get a full, technical definition of everything laid out at some point. Pricing for run costs is more difficult because one of the variables is not fully exposed, ask again in the cost scaling blog comments so we can discuss where that ends up :)

Plug in Baby wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:


There should not be "a load of extra waste", I am not sure where you're seeing that?


ME 2 = ~3% waste?

ME 2 = 8% post patch?

I just don't understand why such a trivially simple system needs to be changed. What is hard to understand about 0.1/(1+ME) really?


If you have an ME 2 blueprint pre-patch we will convert that into an ME 6%? blueprint on patch day. I need to go double-check my spreadsheet at work about this, it might be 7%. The goal is that all blueprints have the same or less waste after the change.
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
#355 - 2014-04-28 23:02:34 UTC
Crebba wrote:

If i understand this section correctly:
Quote:
This would mean that ME/TE 1 become ME 5%/TE 10%, ME/TE 5-9 become ME 9%/TE 18%, and anything over ME/TE 10 currently move to ME 10%/TE 20%.


Then my Raven blueprint that i researched to 40 ME would basically become the same as a blueprint that someone else researched to ME 10.

Lets crunch some numbers
Production price ME 40: 180 268 251 ISK
Production price ME 10: 181 203 436 ISK

My blueprint is netting me 935 k isk more for every ship i produce, it doesn't seem much but its 2 bil isk/year that I would have earned more because i spent 75 days more researching my blueprint than what he did.

If you have to revamp the system then why would you not just take the amount of time spent researching a blueprint and then just set the new ME value to whatever level you would get if you spent that time researching the BPO after the patch?

TLDR:
A overall bump or decrease in costs doesn't really matter in the long run but ruining peoples competitive edge by giving other people your investment for free is not fair and just plain stupid.



As someone who invested deeply into learning skils let me the first to say:

Ah Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha (infinity)

Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character. And character is everything. - author unknown

Plug in Baby
Broken Hearts Love Chocolate
#356 - 2014-04-28 23:05:51 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:


If you have an ME 2 blueprint pre-patch we will convert that into an ME 6%? blueprint on patch day. I need to go double-check my spreadsheet at work about this, it might be 7%. The goal is that all blueprints have the same or less waste after the change.


Ok that is reassuring. I am still confused as to why this new system is necessary

Is 0.1-(0.01*ME) a huge amount simpler than 0.1/(1+ME) I mean this seems to be a vast amount of dev work and change to the players for a benefit I don't really understand.

Other than the ME TE stuff a great dev blog though.

This is not a forum alt, this is a forum main.

Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#357 - 2014-04-28 23:06:25 UTC
Querns wrote:
...unnecessary amounts of research and wasting your time ...

Actually, you know this isn't true. There is a widely held perception that BPOs, and thus BPCs, with higher ME/PE are worth more, and this perception creates reality.

You can see this in the BPC contract market, where players routinely pay more for BPCs with ME/PE values far exceeding "perfect".
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#358 - 2014-04-28 23:06:41 UTC
Qual wrote:
Any chance we will see T1 BPO ME/TE (finally) have an impact on the invetion result?

This would greatly help to even out the huge materials advantage T2 BPO's have over invention. This advantage, on top of the invetion cost itself is the real issue here, not the existence of the T2 BPO's as such. The gap is just to great as it stands now.


It seems CCP has no intention of leveling any playing fields. You were on of their first customers? Congrats, you had a chance to win one of the high profit T2 BPO lottery and play EVE finance on easy mode ever after. Win the wrong BPO, or join he game too late for lottery? Sorry, you never get to play easy mode.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#359 - 2014-04-28 23:08:27 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Gilbaron wrote:
Alright, there is only one thing about the changes that I really don't like

Bpos should be better than bpcs. Maybe only a few percent. But there should some kind reward for building from a bpo in a pos.

For small stuff the improvement is already there. Building from a bpo essentially means less effort. But for bigger stuff that changes rather quickly.

You can react more rapidly to changing market conditions and go direct to manufacture rather than having to maintain a constant backlog of BPCs.

Also you would save on the cost of making the copies, which should be much more significant than the insignificant amount currently charged.



Cost is going to be based o how many copy alts you have installing jobs at your one-man alt corp.

Going on vacation? Click fest of turning off he POS, then turning it back on when you return.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#360 - 2014-04-28 23:09:42 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
Querns wrote:
...unnecessary amounts of research and wasting your time ...

Actually, you know this isn't true. There is a widely held perception that BPOs, and thus BPCs, with higher ME/PE are worth more, and this perception creates reality.

You can see this in the BPC contract market, where players routinely pay more for BPCs with ME/PE values far exceeding "perfect".

This is due to gullibility, not actual gameplay mechanics. Preserving these over-researched BPOs just so a few people will save face seems unwise.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.