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Dev blog: Researching, the Future

First post First post First post
Author
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#301 - 2014-04-28 21:56:23 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:

Which would mean I could put out 1.6 BPC's a day instead of building 1 ship per day... and still make less profit (by far) than building and selling the ship myself.

Except you could build 1.6 ships a day. Really, Grrr Goons might be a thing, but when it comes to exploiting a mechanic for all it's worth, don't try and tell the goons they don't know what they are doing.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#302 - 2014-04-28 21:56:47 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Querns wrote:
Leveraging a 60%+ increase to the profitability of a T2 BPO due to lowering the copy time is going to drive an immense amount of invention to unfeasibility. This cannot be allowed to be brought to Tranquility in its current state.

My recommendation is to "bake in" the T3 Gallente Outpost bonus to copying speed into the T2 BPO, such that if you copy at a T3 Gallente Outpost, you receive copies at the same rate that the currently proposed math suggests they arrive (the math that does not take T3 Gallente Outposts into consideration.)

Why not just remove T2 BPO's so this doesn't come up every single time they try to touch industry.
Give everyone who currently holds a T2 BPO a collectors item and 36*1 Month runs worth of BPC's at the same ME/PE(TE) levels.
If three years of production worth that can be run on multiple lines rather than just one, and a collectors item isn't good enough for someone.... those people will never be satisfied unless they get pure bonuses with no nerfs ever so don't even bother trying to please them.

They are free to do that when they apply the same system to every BPO in the game. Blink

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Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#303 - 2014-04-28 21:57:54 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
I'll elaborate on what Aryth just said, as we've been bouncing this around for a few hours.

Currently anyone sensible produces their t2 module/ammo bpo in an Amarr station (.7 build time modifier) or a pos (.75 build time modifier iirc).

It is currently possible, but a stupid idea, to upgrade a minmatar station to tier 3 to get a .4 build time modifier (this may not actually apply to ammo). It's dumb because it's only for modules, and you get limited slots (and for a while you'd max out at like ten total slots) and essentially double your bpo's output. This already happens with t2 ships, which are built in tier 3 amarr stations and obtain that .4 built time modifier.

So what's going to happen? Well, the minmatar station is dumb...but a tier 3 gallente copying factory is not. You'll get a .4 time modifier on your t2 copy job, which is equivalent to the .4 built time modifier for any t2 bpo at all: you can essentially double its production by making two runs in the time it used to take you to build one run. And everyone is going to be making these tier3 gallente copyhouses for their supercaps.

So all those markets where BPOs didn't dominate? Well, what happens when you double the volume of production you can manage with a t2 bpo? I'm guessing "nothing good". And that's what's about to happen: every DCII bpo will be producing double what it produces today.


I'm guessing this is not good for goons then, or you would not have posted this. But this is a good point.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#304 - 2014-04-28 22:00:38 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

Which would mean I could put out 1.6 BPC's a day instead of building 1 ship per day... and still make less profit (by far) than building and selling the ship myself.

Except you could build 1.6 ships a day. Really, Grrr Goons might be a thing, but when it comes to exploiting a mechanic for all it's worth, don't try and tell the goons they don't know what they are doing.

Fair point. However that still won't make a significant dent in the demand for those ships. Invention still provides the vast majority of the stock on the market, and would continue to do so.

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Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#305 - 2014-04-28 22:02:23 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Thanks for putting that out in the light Weasilor. Combined with the fact that the profit margins for any T2 BPO are higher, this is going to make for a significant change in the flow of profit to T2 BPO holders.

But only if they can get hold of these Gallente outposts, which will probably be quite rare I am guessing.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#306 - 2014-04-28 22:03:17 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:

They are free to do that when they apply the same system to every BPO in the game. Blink

T1 BPO's can be 'produced' fresh by a player. Without paying scam prices to another player.
T2 BPO's can not. If a T2 BPO is profitable it will not sell without being a scam price. If it is not profitable then it also will be a scam price on sale because it's not profitable.
T2 BPO's also displace inventors who are unable to compete due to the lowered production costs of the BPO.

Thus T2 BPO's are an inherently unfair mechanic that was grandfathered into the game because early CCP didn't realise the long term impact of leaving them around.
The fact that every single time industry gets touched special consideration keeps needing to be given to the special case of T2 BPO's and how to avoid screwing over inventors says that they should be removed for the health of the game.

If you use a T2 BPO for production, 3 years worth of production is a reasonably fair compensation. If price margins say it could be 4 or it could be 2. But the point is that it would then be a limited resource that would run out and would not require special treatment or balancing any more.
If you hold a T2 BPO for collectors value, the collectors items would still have their identical value as collectors items. If they dropped in value as a result of becoming non functional then obviously they had value for their production capability, in which case, refer to the above sentence for how that value was already compensated.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#307 - 2014-04-28 22:03:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Medalyn Isis
Ranger 1 wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

Which would mean I could put out 1.6 BPC's a day instead of building 1 ship per day... and still make less profit (by far) than building and selling the ship myself.

Except you could build 1.6 ships a day. Really, Grrr Goons might be a thing, but when it comes to exploiting a mechanic for all it's worth, don't try and tell the goons they don't know what they are doing.

Fair point. However that still won't make a significant dent in the demand for those ships. Invention still provides the vast majority of the stock on the market, and would continue to do so.

Also don't forget, Invention is receiving a nerf in the form of extra materials being moved to base materials, and therefore affected by the negative ME. So yet another indirect buff to T2 BPOs.

All these small buffs will have a cumulative affect.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#308 - 2014-04-28 22:04:45 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Thanks for putting that out in the light Weasilor. Combined with the fact that the profit margins for any T2 BPO are higher, this is going to make for a significant change in the flow of profit to T2 BPO holders.

But only if they can get hold of these Gallente outposts, which will probably be quite rare I am guessing.

Well, to be fair, those that already have or can create/gain access to Gallante outposts will be obtaining more T2 BPO's now. Still, there actually aren't that many BPO's out there to be had.

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Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#309 - 2014-04-28 22:05:00 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Thanks for putting that out in the light Weasilor. Combined with the fact that the profit margins for any T2 BPO are higher, this is going to make for a significant change in the flow of profit to T2 BPO holders.

But only if they can get hold of these Gallente outposts, which will probably be quite rare I am guessing.


not rare at all: most regions have a gallente outpost and if not they cost ~25b to build and drop, then you buy npc sold upgrade platforms and it costs 50-60b to get a fully upgraded one

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Mar'Dur Taren
The Copernicus Institute
#310 - 2014-04-28 22:05:56 UTC
If you plan to make industry dependent on BPCs can you please address the problem of how many BPCs can fit into a Container? At the moment I handle thousands of BPCs and having to spread them amoungst many cans is causing headaches. You are making changes to blueprints now so this is the time to change BPCs

I would suggest that you make it that BPCs of the same stats can be stacked. I know this will take some creative programming but I have faith in you guys.

Proud to be a Boffin!

LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#311 - 2014-04-28 22:06:35 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I would love for someone to go through and give the intersection of high sec systems that offer the complete package of ME, TE, copying, and invention services.

The high sec industrialist will have the choices of:

a. Setting up shop in the tiny amount of systems that meet that criteria, which will be hugely expensive.
b. Setting up shop in multiple systems simultaneously, each that provide a subset of those services, which means incurring huge risk moving very expensive BPO's around, until your BPO collection reaches a quality level you are good with.
c. Becoming a nomad, where you go to a system that provides a service, staying there for an extended period of time, and say, apply ME research to all your BPC's, then moving onto another system to do TE. This is of course, completely impractical, and you still have huge risks moving your BPO collection.
d. You set up a POS somewhere and keep your BPO's in your POS, and apply research to them from your POS. This is, of course, a beacon for war dec griefers, and demands you are online every day, forever, or at least someone from your corp with take rights is available every day.

Bye bye small high sec industrialist corps.



What will happen is that people are going to create high sec corps with just 6 or 8 of their alts. Super hardened, large, high sec POS. Monotony of launching eve over and over again, on each alt, to deliver copies and then create new copy jobs.

War dec, set up a new corp, move all the toons, tear down the POS, set it back up again.


Fun, game mechanic you have created here CCP. Good times ahead!
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#312 - 2014-04-28 22:07:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Medalyn Isis
Querns wrote:
Leveraging a 60%+ increase to the profitability of a T2 BPO due to lowering the copy time is going to drive an immense amount of invention to unfeasibility. This cannot be allowed to be brought to Tranquility in its current state.

My recommendation is to "bake in" the T3 Gallente Outpost bonus to copying speed into the T2 BPO, such that if you copy at a T3 Gallente Outpost, you receive copies at the same rate that the currently proposed math suggests they arrive (the math that does not take T3 Gallente Outposts into consideration.)

That is a terrible hatchet job of an idea.

I think some complete overhaul of base requirements to copy a T2 BPO is needed.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#313 - 2014-04-28 22:10:18 UTC
Abla Tive wrote:
I am not fully familiar with POS's, but I seem to recall that you could copy faster on a POS than on a station.

This speed up was non trivial as I recall.

For a T2 BPO owner, would it now make sense to run a POS to make copies
(albeit at the cost of daily log ins to make sure that you have not been dec'd)

Would this impact the market?


Now to copy a BPO with POS modules, the BPO must be located at the POS, significantly increasing the danger of losing that bpo.
Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#314 - 2014-04-28 22:11:10 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
Kadl wrote:
Perhaps we can settle for constructive arguments?

I'd like that.

Historically the nature of the argument between the two camps has been along these lines:

Person A: Remove T2 BPOs because they are ruining the game!
Person B: In what way are they ruining the game?
Person A: By ruining it!
Person B: Would you like to support that claim in some way? Do you have any figures, graphs, maybe a pie chart?
Person A: Just remove them already!
Person B: I see.

Once you have witnessed this display a thousand times, you get to thinking that the problem is less with T2 BPOs and more with players that don't think things through.


There is certainly a reoccurring pattern. I agree with Person B that the T2 BPOs don't feel right, but don't like the hyperbole. CCP responds to the argument that things don't seem right (different copy times for T2 BPOs doesn't seem right to Greyscale). It is also obvious that the T2 BPOs are not going away immediately. That would also be unfair to those who have purchased them as a productive asset. Given these conflicting interests I think that CCP can simply not improve the T2 BPOs or nerf them slightly over time. Either way addresses the twin facts that they were a mistake and that they are part of the game.
King Fu Hostile
Shiva Furnace
#315 - 2014-04-28 22:12:29 UTC
CCP,

have you considered the total effects of all these upcoming industry changes to average consumer prices (they will go up fairly substantially, and it's not just temporary adjustment) and how it will effect the game as a whole?

Is this intentional, to perhaps encourage a wider adoption of industry inside organisations (good), or just to boost real-life PLEX sales?

Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#316 - 2014-04-28 22:12:42 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

Which would mean I could put out 1.6 BPC's a day instead of building 1 ship per day... and still make less profit (by far) than building and selling the ship myself.

Except you could build 1.6 ships a day. Really, Grrr Goons might be a thing, but when it comes to exploiting a mechanic for all it's worth, don't try and tell the goons they don't know what they are doing.

Fair point. However that still won't make a significant dent in the demand for those ships. Invention still provides the vast majority of the stock on the market, and would continue to do so.


This takes the impacted markets from a handful of under utilized cases and turns it into a sizeable portion of the T2 market. I am sure CCP can run a query to see how many are impacted by a doubling of BPO output. Its a very safe bet its more than was impacted by 6.25% though. 60% is pretty laughable after all.

Our hope is they nerf outposts in some way or nerf copy time on T2 bpos, or rather not unnerf them.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#317 - 2014-04-28 22:12:46 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

Which would mean I could put out 1.6 BPC's a day instead of building 1 ship per day... and still make less profit (by far) than building and selling the ship myself.

Except you could build 1.6 ships a day. Really, Grrr Goons might be a thing, but when it comes to exploiting a mechanic for all it's worth, don't try and tell the goons they don't know what they are doing.

Fair point. However that still won't make a significant dent in the demand for those ships. Invention still provides the vast majority of the stock on the market, and would continue to do so.



Just ran the (max skill) numbers on a Pilgrim.

If you're buying all the components at jita sell prices, the only way to make a profit is with a Process decryptor. And then you make around 75k isk/hr.

(flipping everything except datacores and decryptors over to buy orders improves it to around 270k, but they're not uncommon items. sell orders are the better way to judge it)

This suggests that the quantity from T2 BPOs is not inconsequential. (back in March 2012, only 22% of pilgrims came from invention.

Looking at the market history, the numbers moving haven't significantly changed.

http://eve-marketdata.com/price_check.php?step=Show&type_id=11965&region_id=&solarsystem_id=&type=historytext

With a 60% increase in output, BPO owners can close this market to inventors, if they so choose.

(extra materials have a minimal effect on this one.)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#318 - 2014-04-28 22:12:57 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Querns wrote:
Leveraging a 60%+ increase to the profitability of a T2 BPO due to lowering the copy time is going to drive an immense amount of invention to unfeasibility. This cannot be allowed to be brought to Tranquility in its current state.

My recommendation is to "bake in" the T3 Gallente Outpost bonus to copying speed into the T2 BPO, such that if you copy at a T3 Gallente Outpost, you receive copies at the same rate that the currently proposed math suggests they arrive (the math that does not take T3 Gallente Outposts into consideration.)

That is a terrible hatchet job of an idea.

I think some complete overhaul of base requirements to copy a T2 BPO is needed.

How so? If CCP's idea is to make copying a T2 BPO slightly more effective than building on it, compensating for the T3 Gallente Station that every single T2 BPO will land in makes sense. Failing to do this causes the T2 BPO to be able to generate more than twice as many runs per time period than before.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#319 - 2014-04-28 22:15:45 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

Which would mean I could put out 1.6 BPC's a day instead of building 1 ship per day... and still make less profit (by far) than building and selling the ship myself.

Except you could build 1.6 ships a day. Really, Grrr Goons might be a thing, but when it comes to exploiting a mechanic for all it's worth, don't try and tell the goons they don't know what they are doing.

Fair point. However that still won't make a significant dent in the demand for those ships. Invention still provides the vast majority of the stock on the market, and would continue to do so.


This takes the impacted markets from a handful of under utilized cases and turns it into a sizeable portion of the T2 market. I am sure CCP can run a query to see how many are impacted by a doubling of BPO output. Its a very safe bet its more than was impacted by 6.25% though. 60% is pretty laughable after all.

Our hope is they nerf outposts in some way or nerf copy time on T2 bpos, or rather not unnerf them.

There are already too many items which are unviable to invent due to T2 BPOs imo.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#320 - 2014-04-28 22:15:58 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

They are free to do that when they apply the same system to every BPO in the game. Blink

T1 BPO's can be 'produced' fresh by a player. Without paying scam prices to another player.
T2 BPO's can not. If a T2 BPO is profitable it will not sell without being a scam price. If it is not profitable then it also will be a scam price on sale because it's not profitable.
T2 BPO's also displace inventors who are unable to compete due to the lowered production costs of the BPO.

Thus T2 BPO's are an inherently unfair mechanic that was grandfathered into the game because early CCP didn't realise the long term impact of leaving them around.
The fact that every single time industry gets touched special consideration keeps needing to be given to the special case of T2 BPO's and how to avoid screwing over inventors says that they should be removed for the health of the game.

If you use a T2 BPO for production, 3 years worth of production is a reasonably fair compensation. If price margins say it could be 4 or it could be 2. But the point is that it would then be a limited resource that would run out and would not require special treatment or balancing any more.
If you hold a T2 BPO for collectors value, the collectors items would still have their identical value as collectors items. If they dropped in value as a result of becoming non functional then obviously they had value for their production capability, in which case, refer to the above sentence for how that value was already compensated.

The low production volume of T2 BPO's invalidates most of your argument.

Yes, you can earn a higher profit per item... but the number of items you can actually produce is laughably low.

I make far better income from a well organized Invention chain than I can hope to make from my BPO, due to the far greater volume I can produce.

This has been explained every time this argument has come up over the years, but it never seems to sink in.

There is also no other BPO in the game that you can obtain that magically loses it's ability to produce after a set amount of time, nor should there be. I invested a huge amount of time and effort to obtain mine, and many have paid huge sums to obtain theirs (sums that mean they will have zero return on investment for literally years after the purchase).

To set the precedent to remove their ability to produce (effectively removing them from the game) is one CCP is understandably very reluctant to make... and you should probably rethink asking them to do so lest the same eventually happen to you... simply because other people have no idea what they are talking about.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.