These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Overpowered Modules

Author
Eric de'Locke
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2014-04-28 18:59:23 UTC
Tengu Grib wrote:
Not at all, you're saying that the current state of neuts is a fitting problem, where other considerations like kiting and such are tactical concerns. I disagree with you. If you fly a cap reliant ship like an enyo ( a ship I love btw, excellent choice ) then yeah, cap drains are going to suck for you. But that's an engagement risk and needs to be considered tactically. As such, imo, neuts are not a fitting problem, but a tactical problem, to be considered in the same way as one would consider brawlers vs. kiting etc.


Again, no. I have never said that neuts are a fitting problem. Only than that they are overpowered, especially if multiple neuts are involved. To be able to completely drain the cap from a ship within seconds seems OP. Yes I know that there are modules that can counter a neut to some degree and that a neuts weakness is it's range. My argument is that a neut should never be able to drain ALL cap. That all ships should have some form of inherent projection just as they do against other damage types, especially after over 10 years.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#42 - 2014-04-28 19:30:04 UTC
For disclosure, I primarily fly Gallente and Amarr ships.

I do not consider neuts to be overpowered. They work well and "cut" both ways in that...
- ships that fit them have to make compromises to fit and run them (by respectively downgrading weapons/mods and fitting their own cap mods)
- the ship at the receiving end of neuts have to make equal compromises to have resistance against them.

As for multiple neuts being OP... this is true when under focused Ewar of any kind.
Multiple damps will make it so you have to be right next to a ship in order to target (bad for anyone who doesn't brawl)... multiple ECM mods directed against you will pretty much keep you permajamed... multiple tracking disruptors in a turreted ship? You can forget hitting anything.
And yes... there are all mods that can counter the effects but only so much. For example; An unbonused tracking disruptor will cut tracking by ~40% or more. A Tracking Computer will increase tracking by 30% or less. A Tracking Enhancer will increase tracking only by 15% or less.


All races and weapon systems have their strengths and pitfalls. There is no problem here.
Tengu Grib
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#43 - 2014-04-28 19:37:00 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
For disclosure, I primarily fly Gallente and Amarr ships.

I do not consider neuts to be overpowered. They work well and "cut" both ways in that...
- ships that fit them have to make compromises to fit and run them (by respectively downgrading weapons/mods and fitting their own cap mods)
- the ship at the receiving end of neuts have to make equal compromises to have resistance against them.

As for multiple neuts being OP... this is true when under focused Ewar of any kind.
Multiple damps will make it so you have to be right next to a ship in order to target (bad for anyone who doesn't brawl)... multiple ECM mods directed against you will pretty much keep you permajamed... multiple tracking disruptors in a turreted ship? You can forget hitting anything.
And yes... there are all mods that can counter the effects but only so much. For example; An unbonused tracking disruptor will cut tracking by ~40% or more. A Tracking Computer will increase tracking by 30% or less. A Tracking Enhancer will increase tracking only by 15% or less.


All races and weapon systems have their strengths and pitfalls. There is no problem here.


Said it much better than I could have.

And as far as I'm concerned, the module is fittings on the ship, so saying the module is overpowered and saying it's a fitting problem are the same thing. Fittings vs. tactics. If you use the words differently, than that likely lead to misunderstanding of what you meant on my part.

Still, I have no more problem with neuts than I do with any kind of ewar. More than one on ANY ewar module is going to be a big problem for ships affected by that type of ewar (in the case of ecm that's everyone, and in the case of neuts, that's nearly everyone). That doesn't make neuts any more OP than ecm for instance.

Rabble Rabble Rabble

Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.

Choppz Jerrivason
Machiavellian Empire
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#44 - 2014-04-28 20:02:03 UTC
I'm not a pvp expert, but I fly Amarr/Gallente boats for pvp and my favourite ship is a neut fit Prophecy.

With my average skills its 461 dps and 73k ehp tank.

It can't even beat my friend's basic HAM drake.. Yeah I can turn off his prop/invuln fields but I can't turn off his missiles, his extenders, drones or passive resistance bonus..

Like basically every module in pvp, its all circumstantial. Also if neuts can't dry out a target ship's cap, then whats the point in neuts? Can we also have guns that don't damage hull?

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#45 - 2014-04-28 20:19:46 UTC
rock paper scissors bro

if they keep using rock, stop using scissors.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#46 - 2014-04-28 20:40:04 UTC

Neuts can be countered by a NOS or a cap booster. I'm a huge fan of fitting NOS's to most of my brawling ships, as it can usually steal enough cap to keep my tackle and weapons running, with enough extra for occasional prop mod / rep cycles.

This often requires sacrificing some dps to fit everything, but has enormous benefits for longer fights or fights against ships with neuts. Neuts are definitely NOT overpowered, often cap draining the ship that utilizes the neut. This enhances the value of capless weapons, which don't dish out nearly as much dps as your neutron blasters or lasers.

It's a game of trade-offs.

So, explain exactly why neuts are overpowered? Is it because you are unwilling to fit counters to them, or do you have any well-reasoned arguments that they are out of balance?
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#47 - 2014-04-28 20:51:15 UTC
Try engaging in a fight with anything in lowsec with only a small gang and youll realize not only are neuts a godsend, they are a pain in the ass to manage. you have to know who to target, for how long, and it leaves your only real viable DPS as drones, something thats not only not very good at countering hostile drones, but leaves you highly vulnerable should you have to warp out.

in fact, vs anything, a ship with neuts really only holds a solid advantage 1v1, the second it becoems outnumbered, it needs heavy babysitting by a gang to survive or it will be overwhelmed.

not to mention even a fully bonused sentinel with 3 neuts cant prevent a blaster0ship from firing its guns, the pilot can still fire them manually if he isnt a moron and he doesnt have them stacked once the neuting starts.
Eric de'Locke
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2014-04-30 11:26:35 UTC
Ultimately it's about game balance. One module, or ship no matter how well fitted, should never trump another module or ship in the same class. Otherwise it's not balanced. I'm not taking about having an advantage over another pilot, what I'm talking about is a chance for success. Taking away that chance of success is the cause of my concern, otherwise everyone will start flying the same ships and use the same modules. Where's the fun in that?
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#49 - 2014-04-30 11:48:38 UTC
No. if he has brought the perfect counter to ur set-up, bring another set-up, bring another ship, 60% of weapon systems are immune to neuts, and then u have nos and cap boosters and batteries on top of all that. ADAPT or keep dying.

Eve is not just a tactical game. a lot of the fights in eve are won before they've even started. its the reward u get for being prepared and keeping urself unpredictable.

its like saying u want to use scissors all the time and complaining u dnt have a chance when they use rock.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Talia Prime
Imperial Militia
#50 - 2014-04-30 11:57:41 UTC
Eric de'Locke wrote:
Taking away that chance of success is the cause of my concern, otherwise everyone will start flying the same ships and use the same modules. Where's the fun in that?


Despite neuts not having changed much since they were introduced, this hasn't happened. Why do you feel it will suddenly happen now?
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#51 - 2014-04-30 11:59:32 UTC
Eric de'Locke wrote:
Cap Boosters are of limited use

I never fly without one.
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#52 - 2014-04-30 11:59:43 UTC
Eric de'Locke wrote:
Ultimately it's about game balance. One module, or ship no matter how well fitted, should never trump another module or ship in the same class. Otherwise it's not balanced. I'm not taking about having an advantage over another pilot, what I'm talking about is a chance for success. Taking away that chance of success is the cause of my concern, otherwise everyone will start flying the same ships and use the same modules. Where's the fun in that?


As others have pointed out it has always been this way and still people are bringing a huge variety of ships to pvp. If everyone flew neut ships except me i would be able to kill almost everyone as they are easy to counter if you know you will be facing them.

Some ships just have hard counters and this is a good thing. I will give an example.
I love flying claws and stillettos.
My claw is active tanked, scram/web fit with a NOS. I use it to tackle fast ships and hold them down and also to tackle PVE BS. It does decent dps and is pretty rugged. I will not tackle ships like ishtars that likely have multiple neuts on. Also a certain Russian loves his autocannon canes with scram double web. I will not tackle those in my claw.
My Stilletto is long point , low dps and very fast. It has a paper tank and uses its guns as drone defence only. I will happily tackle that cane and the ishtar in this ship but will die to many things my claw can easily solo and will almost never directly fire on the pointed target (it has stupid low dps anyway).
My ship choice and fitting choice has given me different engagement profiles. One laughs at scram/web/neut and the other laughs at anything that lacks these and even a few things that do have them.
With my retribution i love getting in close with multifreq but any sign that they have neuts and i stay at range and use scorch. There is always a counter in eve and it just so happens you favour murder boats that kill almost anything solo except neut boats which kill you. It doesn't make neuts OP in general they just counter your favoured ships /fits.

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85

Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#53 - 2014-04-30 12:02:44 UTC
Eric de'Locke wrote:
Now a neut/nos is a form of damage, wouldn't someone find a way to inherently protect a portion of that needed energy in a similar way that armour and shield do from physical harm without having to use a module?

Yes. It's called Capacitor Management V.
oohthey ioh
Doomheim
#54 - 2014-04-30 16:44:06 UTC
Eric de'Locke wrote:
Schmata Bastanold wrote:


Yesterday I went with a thrasher against an arbi and catalyst. Arbi had 3 neuts, I lost cap almost from the start and my point was dropping after each cycle. I killed them both and podded arbi pilot.

Thrasher nerf incoming?


You've just made my point for me. Everyone might as well start flying ships that fit weapons that don't use cap. If that happens, might as well not have any Amarr and Gallente ships in the game and then there will be no ships choices and everyone will start flying the same thing. And then what's the point of playing the game as there will be no choice or variety.


well thrasher are weak to tracking disrupt, jams, range (close or long range depending on how it is fitted) or generally any brawlers has a good tank and dps.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#55 - 2014-04-30 17:03:48 UTC
You just ran face first into why PvP fits and PvE fits tend to be incompatible.

PvP heavily favors buffer tanks and extreme performance in short term fights.

PvE tends to favor consistant performance for long periods, so cap stability and active repair make up the bulk of ships that engage in it.

One of the best ways to cripple performance in a ship is cap warfare--- even a PvP ship designed with cap warfare in mind is going to be relying on prop mods and probably an active hardener or two. So to counter the enemies extreme performance a great many PvP ships fit Neut or Nos.

PvE ships with their reliance on active repair and carefully balanced capacitor draws are easily crippled and killed by even a single small neut in many cases. They simply do not, in general, have the sort of buffer to outlast a PvP ships damage.

There are counters, but most of them do indeed revolve around selecting the right tool for the job in the first place. A Hyperion can put out withering DPS and supports a great active tank, making it perform well in PvE as far as gunships go.... But you would not want to put it up against an Abbadon with a couple of plates and a much wider engagement envelope, or an Armegeddon that will shut that tank down and tear you apart with drones, 1 on 1.
Naomi Anthar
#56 - 2014-04-30 17:48:34 UTC
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=23197091

I'm glad situation like this can happen.

Let's be honest everyone thinks that enyo is sooooooooooooo good.

Well it is not. It can be kited , it can be neuted aswell. Sadly enyo pilots can't comprehend that something looking so good in eft is actually so vulnerable in real fight. I will go even further - enyo is **** af. Slow , not that tanky if you want huge dps and vulnerable to all kinds of ewar.

Maybe stop counting on massive dps and solid tank to do all the job. Try some ship that requires some skill to fly.

I'm not saying enyo is useless - but it is more useful in fleet than in solo - true story. If someone will take fight against you ... then he got some ace he will play in this engagement. Like that time imicus reduced your dps to single hobgobilin - or whatever drone you use.

Can't count how many times enyo pilots attacked my dragoon ... thinking that maybe they can kill me before i can neut them out , or maybe that thier cap booster will keep them going. Yeah never worked, never will.

I will give you a tip - heavily dependant on cap ships like tormentor or executioner can destroy neuting imicus/tristan without problem ... but then you need to know how to control distance (when oh ab / web/ scram) and judge if you can use your SAAR or you should save cap just for prop/damage. Keep them at 6600m ++. Yeah sadly you need just to play it well, not blast someone with 400+ dps enyo in face.

Sorry that easy mode is not working for you.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#57 - 2014-04-30 17:56:43 UTC
Yeah, next time fly something that doesn't have possibly the smallest cap pool available in the game.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#58 - 2014-04-30 18:09:31 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
I looked at the OP's killboard... I like how he routinely tries to take on "buzzsaw" Thrashers in Enyos and Fed Comets. He has balls and I give him much respect for that.

However... MOST frigates are at an automatic disadvantage against most destroyers... T2 or otherwise.

My advice is to change up tactics and try something new. A MWD-rail Enyo for example.

edit:
@ Naomi Anthar... massive DPS and buffer is viable in many circumstances. You just have to be damn sure you can pin down and K.O. the opponent before his/her Ewar can take full effect. I personally recommend overheating as soon and as often as possible.
Bohneik Itohn
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2014-04-30 18:26:41 UTC
Last Wolf wrote:
Bohneik Itohn wrote:
Last Wolf wrote:
So if you're sitting next to a Mobile depot and keep offlining/onlining your MWD......



Then you're sitting still in a frigate next to a mobile depot looking like an idiot before someone shoots you.



Still, I didn't know that was even possible. Nearly ever non capital PvP ship fits a MWD so this could be useful on a BS or BC for example. I doubt it would give unlimited cap anyways, if it does it will be fixed asap.



I see what you're getting at but it doesn't work like that. The wording that describes how an MWD works is important. The amount of total capacitor amount when you equip one isn't "reduced" it's "reserved". The cap is still there on your ship, technically, it is just not available to any modules for active use, not even the MWD. By taking the MWD offline you make that reserved capacitor available to everything again, including enemy neuts. If you online the MWD again the amount of capacitor reserved is the same regardless of how much cap you have. I can't say whether you will be unable to online the MWD again without enough cap in the pool to reserve, or whether the the reserved pool of cap would simply be short by the amount you don't have and remain that way, because I haven't tested it. I can however guarantee that it will be one of these two, because the capacitor that you get back from putting your MWD offline doesn't just magically appear. It was there the entire time, just unavailable for use, neuting or NOSing.

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help.

Sigras
Conglomo
#60 - 2014-04-30 19:14:46 UTC
The reason people keep telling you to use the ship if you think it's overpowered is not because we want everyone flying the same ship, but because these ships do have very clear and obvious downsides, and flying those ships is the quickest and easiest way for you to experience them.

Just because you cannot think of a counter to a neut ship doesnt mean that nobody can think up a counter to one.

Take for example, a curse. I believe that the curse is a fairly well balanced ship. I love that thing; I can stay out at kite range all day and keep them locked down and cap dry while my drones tear them apart ... unless theyre in a missile ship, or a drone ship, or an autocannon ship that targets my drones.

Just because paper > rock doesnt mean that rock is useless because rock beats the crap out of scissors. It also doesnt mean that paper is overpowered because paper is helpless against scissors ...

When you think a ship sucks just try to remember the truth ... there is no ship ... then you will find that it is not the ship that sucks ...