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Dev blog: Researching, the Future

First post First post First post
Author
Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#81 - 2014-04-28 16:41:05 UTC
Mr. CCP GreyScale


I've been working on a Capital Component BPO since last year.. a propulsion engine its at a current level of ME 530. what level and rank would this be after the changes. I feel like you've just gimp'ed my chances of making isk from copies.. are is this good enough?

would this be perfect?
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#82 - 2014-04-28 16:42:23 UTC  |  Edited by: MailDeadDrop
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
MailDeadDrop wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
MailDeadDrop wrote:
Since you're trying to move Eve away from "build from original (BPO)" and more towards "build from copy (BPC)", can we have an increase in station copy facilities to be closer to on-par with station manufacturing facilities? Now it seems like there's 10x or more manufacturing facilities for every copy facility.

MDD


As mentioned in this previous devblog:

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/building-better-worlds/

We are removing the slots and introducing a cost scaling system instead. The next devblog will cover that in more detail.

So many blogs because so many changes Bear

That doesn't help me when the station I'm in has manufacturing facilities but does not have laboratory facilities. Or are you saying that all stations will have all services now?

MDD


Ah no it doesn't, but the stations that do have copy facilities will no longer be capped. Yes you may need to do some flying around.

Please have a look at the number of stations with laboratory facilities versus the number of stations with manufacturing facilities. They are severely imbalanced in some regions (perhaps all).

And minimizing the problem as "oh, you'll just have to fly around some more" doesn't give me confidence that you've thought the changes through. For example, copying corporate blueprints means you'll need to have an office in the station with the laboratory facilities. Possibly several new offices if you have to use a variety of laboratory services to react to congestion pricing. And corporate blueprints are frequently locked down. Do you begin to see how this is perhaps a problem?

MDD
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
#83 - 2014-04-28 16:43:11 UTC
You wanted feedback on ship BPO ME/TE research time.

I found that I research things like ammo for more cycles that ships. Why? Because of time constraints. I just do not want to lose use of the ship BPO for that long. Ammo? Well, it's not that much time, so I might as well really research it up.

I would say frigs should be closer to x 10, and battleships x 20. Consider having the time grow like rank to the 0.75 power. (or alternatively, predefining rank as: ( Research time / 6000 ) ^ 0.75, and then round off to some nice number. )

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Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#84 - 2014-04-28 16:46:34 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Plans if invent-to-sell expands: nothing concrete, it would depend on what exactly happened, where things settled and how much of a problem we felt it was. The potential problem with this outcome is that the invention market crashes - the concern isn't that players are smart, it's worry that they might be opposite ;)


So long as you are keeping an eye on this.

CCP Greyscale wrote:
We're very un-keen on making any blueprints worse as a result of this change, that feels far more painful than "wasted time" and a better blueprint.


On a purely subjective level I disagree about the feeling, and would like to give you that data point.

CCP Greyscale wrote:
Time credit is something we could investigate, although it potentially requires a lot of work to allow you to cash it in.


A time credit could really salve some wounds here. Something which lets you do double time research. If you make the credit an object then, it could be an option placed on the ME and TE research screens. It seems that you already need to build optional inputs for other research related jobs like invention. You would just add that optional input to your newly developed ME and TE research screens. It would also give you a potential reward in the future.
Lilliana Stelles
#85 - 2014-04-28 16:46:35 UTC
No no no no no.

The copy time buff (if I'm reading this correctly) will be absurdly powerful for T2 BPO owners. Powerful enough to the point that invention will be worthless. We're talking about producing 100 copies in the time it previously took to produce one.

Not a forum alt. 

CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#86 - 2014-04-28 16:48:41 UTC
Myxx wrote:
I and others feel like CCP is being intentionally vague. This is frustrating. You give details of low end items, but don't flesh out your maths for higher end bpos (capitals and such).


You're asking about research times? The math is super simple, divide current ME research time by 6000 to get the rank, multiply Rank 1 times (in the blog) by this number to get the times for that blueprint.

Nanaki wrote:
so whats the ranks on orcas freighters dreads carriers and supers? would be good to know


Orca: Rank 820
Freighters: Rank 854
Dreads: Rank 854
Carriers: Rank 854
Supercarriers: Rank 1707
Titans: Rank 3414

Milla Goodpussy wrote:
Mr. CCP GreyScale


I've been working on a Capital Component BPO since last year.. a propulsion engine its at a current level of ME 530. what level and rank would this be after the changes. I feel like you've just gimp'ed my chances of making isk from copies.. are is this good enough?

would this be perfect?


It will be at ME 10% after the change, which is perfect, yes. Capital Propulsion Engine is Rank 11.
Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#87 - 2014-04-28 16:49:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Seith Kali
Just want to point out, using BPC's won't be preferred over most BPO's unless we can stack them to run more than the max runs at a time. Right now I can only build 20 t1 cruisers, for example, from a BPC job at once, regardless of copy speed that is still the limiting factor.

This is good news for inventors though - making t2 modules from BPO's will remain an arduous affair. They will start needing personal outposts or have to risk putting them in POS to avoid costs to produce at scale.

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege. 

MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#88 - 2014-04-28 16:50:05 UTC
Lilliana Stelles wrote:
No no no no no.

The copy time buff (if I'm reading this correctly) will be absurdly powerful for T2 BPO owners. Powerful enough to the point that invention will be worthless. We're talking about producing 100 copies in the time it previously took to produce one.


I think you're being alarmist. T2 BPO will be able to produce a one-run copy in 93% of the time it would take to manufacture one unit. How is that a problem?

MDD
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#89 - 2014-04-28 16:50:48 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I would love for someone to go through and give the intersection of high sec systems that offer the complete package of ME, TE, copying, and invention services.

i might be missing some stations as I don't research in highsec but I'm not aware of any station type that has one of (me/pe/copying) and not the other two. I think only the advanced lab pos mod is the only way to research that's missing one (TE).

and I think you can invent anywhere you can research

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

El Geo
Warcrows
Shattered Foundations
#90 - 2014-04-28 16:51:05 UTC
With all the extra NPC content You (CCP) are adding to the next expansion will there be new items that will increase the chances of a successful ship hull invention jobs with possible added ME/TE? (Think along the lines of the Talocan wrecks used to reverse engineering)
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#91 - 2014-04-28 16:51:42 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
You wanted feedback on ship BPO ME/TE research time.

I found that I research things like ammo for more cycles that ships. Why? Because of time constraints. I just do not want to lose use of the ship BPO for that long. Ammo? Well, it's not that much time, so I might as well really research it up.

I would say frigs should be closer to x 10, and battleships x 20. Consider having the time grow like rank to the 0.75 power. (or alternatively, predefining rank as: ( Research time / 6000 ) ^ 0.75, and then round off to some nice number. )


Good data point, thanks :)

Kadl wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Plans if invent-to-sell expands: nothing concrete, it would depend on what exactly happened, where things settled and how much of a problem we felt it was. The potential problem with this outcome is that the invention market crashes - the concern isn't that players are smart, it's worry that they might be opposite ;)


So long as you are keeping an eye on this.

CCP Greyscale wrote:
We're very un-keen on making any blueprints worse as a result of this change, that feels far more painful than "wasted time" and a better blueprint.


On a purely subjective level I disagree about the feeling, and would like to give you that data point.

CCP Greyscale wrote:
Time credit is something we could investigate, although it potentially requires a lot of work to allow you to cash it in.


A time credit could really salve some wounds here. Something which lets you do double time research. If you make the credit an object then, it could be an option placed on the ME and TE research screens. It seems that you already need to build optional inputs for other research related jobs like invention. You would just add that optional input to your newly developed ME and TE research screens. It would also give you a potential reward in the future.


Thanks for the feedback :)

Lilliana Stelles wrote:
No no no no no.

The copy time buff (if I'm reading this correctly) will be absurdly powerful for T2 BPO owners. Powerful enough to the point that invention will be worthless. We're talking about producing 100 copies in the time it previously took to produce one.


It's a 6.25% throughput increase on the BPO, assuming you were building from BPOs rather than copies before (ie, you're not insane). It makes slightly more profit per hour but doesn't change the profit per unit at all. It doesn't seem like it's obviously going to kill off invention as a result.
Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#92 - 2014-04-28 16:52:21 UTC
Lilliana Stelles wrote:
No no no no no.

The copy time buff (if I'm reading this correctly) will be absurdly powerful for T2 BPO owners. Powerful enough to the point that invention will be worthless. We're talking about producing 100 copies in the time it previously took to produce one.


I have no love for the T2 BPOs, but some of them were used for direct production. So they were capable of producing 100 items in the time it took to make a BPO copy for a single item. That is not where the benefit is for T2 BPO owners.

The advantage for T2 BPO owners is that with skills maxed you will be able to copy from a blueprint 6.25% faster then produce from the same blueprint. That means that T2 BPO owners are gaining a 6.25% increase in production (if they switch to the copy then produce method).
Thead Enco
Thunderwaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#93 - 2014-04-28 16:53:22 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I would love for someone to go through and give the intersection of high sec systems that offer the complete package of ME, TE, copying, and invention services.

The high sec industrialist will have the choices of:

a. Setting up shop in the tiny amount of systems that meet that criteria, which will be hugely expensive.
b. Setting up shop in multiple systems simultaneously, each that provide a subset of those services, which means incurring huge risk moving very expensive BPO's around, until your BPO collection reaches a quality level you are good with.
c. Becoming a nomad, where you go to a system that provides a service, staying there for an extended period of time, and say, apply ME research to all your BPC's, then moving onto another system to do TE. This is of course, completely impractical, and you still have huge risks moving your BPO collection.
d. You set up a POS somewhere and keep your BPO's in your POS, and apply research to them from your POS. This is, of course, a beacon for war dec griefers, and demands you are online every day, forever, or at least someone from your corp with take rights is available every day.

Bye bye small high sec industrialist corps.


Do you even play this game......
Sniper FC
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#94 - 2014-04-28 16:53:35 UTC
Are you also looking at fixing the API for BP in general as well?

Currently there is no way to pull the research level out of asset information or the number of runs on a BPC.
Theodore Knox
Ducks in Outer Space
#95 - 2014-04-28 16:55:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Theodore Knox
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Theodore Knox wrote:
an we get an indication of what the tiering or ranks will be for all categories of BP... as you say, Ammo will be rank 1 (so a three day research time for max ME). Rigs? Are all modules going to be rank 2? And how will this telescope for higher rank items that have lower component quantities (i.e. Caps - I'm guessing we'll be able to cut ME research at about level 4 or 5 to get perfect build costs, or are we really going to need to chase insanely long research times for the competitive edge?)

/Theo


I'd have to make a public-ready spreadsheet for this, and honestly it's probably easier for you to do it yourselves :) Take the current ME research time in seconds, divide by 6000, and that's the rank for that blueprint.




Thanks for this. Just to be clear - the telescoping is a straight multiplication of the Rank 1 times in the Devblog?

I see the answer to this above... cool.

/Theo
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#96 - 2014-04-28 16:56:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Weaselior
CCP Greyscale wrote:

It's a 6.25% throughput increase on the BPO, assuming you were building from BPOs rather than copies before (ie, you're not insane). It makes slightly more profit per hour but doesn't change the profit per unit at all. It doesn't seem like it's obviously going to kill off invention as a result.

you're not thinking about t2 bpos correctly

t2 bpos allow you to have an absolute cost advantage: you're always producing cheaper than someone inventing. what matters is how much that t2 bpo (and the others of that type) can produce. if it can meet demand without invention, the price will be where invention is not profitable. if it can't, the price will largely depend on how much of the demand is met by invention

when you make it possible to produce more on a t2 bpo, every new unit it produces forces one invented unit out of the market. the profits on invention will fall until someone leaves.

producing more on a T2 BPO is absolutely a huge deal, much more than if you boosted its cost a little bit, because its impact on the market depends on the amount it can produce, not the costs (unless the cost is higher than invention)

a t2 bpo holder essentially has a monopoly: their price isn't dictated by their costs its dictated by what the market will bear

you absolutely should make it so a t2 bpo max copy speed is exactly equal to its current build speed: anything else is a buff that will push out inventors

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#97 - 2014-04-28 16:56:08 UTC
Amazing changes, thank you.

The Tears Must Flow

gas guzzler
i'm from the government and i'm here to help
#98 - 2014-04-28 16:56:22 UTC
Lilliana Stelles wrote:
No no no no no.

The copy time buff (if I'm reading this correctly) will be absurdly powerful for T2 BPO owners. Powerful enough to the point that invention will be worthless. We're talking about producing 100 copies in the time it previously took to produce one.



look at the current copy time on t2 BPOs before you post something like this please
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#99 - 2014-04-28 16:57:25 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I would love for someone to go through and give the intersection of high sec systems that offer the complete package of ME, TE, copying, and invention services.

i might be missing some stations as I don't research in highsec but I'm not aware of any station type that has one of (me/pe/copying) and not the other two. I think only the advanced lab pos mod is the only way to research that's missing one (TE).

If you're going to include POS modules (Dinsdale was referring to stations/outposts only I believe), then I think the Hyasyoda lab is also missing TE. But that is from my admittedly sketchy memory.

Weaselior wrote:
and I think you can invent anywhere you can research

True, since every laboratory facility (station, outpost, or POS) has invention lines AFAIK.

MDD
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#100 - 2014-04-28 16:57:44 UTC
Theodore Knox wrote:


I think we need to be careful about using emotive language like "effort" here. I don't confess to having many insanely researched BPOs, but even the ones I do have were built up passively over time. Words like "effort" should apply to people who've gamed insane standings, not silly 0.000000000000000000000000000001% improvements on manufacturing costs.

We need to be honest, the ME system as it is stupid. Fixing it will be good for the game longer term.


To you it's silly. To other's who put insane amounts of time into min / maxing it's very important and a big part of why they play the game. This is a complex aspect of the game that attracted a certain type of player. It is most certainly being dumbed down. That will be viewed as a positive for some players and a negative for others. Your perspective is your perspective and not some objective quantifiable certainty.

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