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Warfare & Tactics

 
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FW plex mechanic discussion

Author
Sister Lumi
Doomheim
#21 - 2014-04-24 14:55:13 UTC
It's all in the details.

Another minor fix we need is to make the plex NPC spawn closer to the warp-in beacon. It takes too long to get to lock range. Alternatively remove the unnecessary locking range and speed debuffs of warp core stabilizers.

Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#22 - 2014-04-24 17:22:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Gaven Lok'ri
Waves would be bad. So would heavily increased numbers of NPCs. There were massive balance problems with the old system, and the sheer casualty numbers were just silly from a lore point of view. Single patrol boat seems right for a novice plex.

What is needed is slightly stronger and more dangerous NPCs. And then escort frigates for the cruisers and up.

A solidly fit t1 fit t1 frigate should easily beat a novice plex rat, but a stabbed/WCS one should not. That makes a pretty fine sweet spot, but it should be achievable.

I also think all FW NPCs should be fit to kill. They should have webs and scrams. At the same time, I would get rid of the silly speed thing they have going.

Plex difficulty is a relatively minor issue in FW mechanics, however.

Missions and the whole tier system are significantly more problematic.

Admiral of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore 24th Imperial Crusade

Holder. Vassal of the Emperor Family

Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#23 - 2014-04-24 19:17:18 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
1. Increase the tank of the rats, requiring more DPS. A 1 day old alt in a 60dps frigate shouldn't be soloing the cruisers in mediums.

2. If a FW pilot is in the plex, the timer should be counting as normal. No FW pilot in the plex? Decay to neutral. No FW pilot in the plex for X minutes and timer is neutral? Decay to zero. FW pilot enters the plex and timer has decayed from neutral? Reset to neutral, count it up as normal. No FW pilot in the plex and timer decayed to zero due to inactivity? Despawn the plex, no LP awarded, no change to system contested percentage.

No more half finished plexes sitting around, no more disparity of effort.


#1 I like, #2 not so much.

The decay to neutral option could be abused. For instance, 6 people are sitting in a Medium plex in frigates, 5 WTs show up on short scan in Caracals. You know you can't take the fight so you run as soon as they warp in. They warp in find that you have left and then warp out of the plex and it resets to neutral. So now they only have to run it for 15 minutes instead of the 15 minutes + the time you had run it down. So now the 6 guys in frigates have less time to reship and go back to retake the plex. 15 minutes should be enough time, but we all know that not everyone reships quickly. In fact reshipping times on both side can be downright embarrassing at times. Seems to me it could discourage PvP.
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#24 - 2014-04-24 21:08:06 UTC
Yeah, I can see how that would be problematic.

My intent was to create a mechanic with a tendency towards a neutral timer count, so that bailing from a plex and coming back a half hour later doesn't mean you get to pick up where you left off. I hate the disparity of effort it takes to capture a plex that's been run down by the opposite faction, as that disparity is part of what causes so many folks to simply leave rather than put in a disproportionate amount of effort to capture a plex for less rewards.

Not sure how to make that a reality though.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."

Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#25 - 2014-04-25 15:19:12 UTC
You know, if you really want to **** on the farmers, once you get a system to 0%; def-plex all plexes down to about 1 minute and then leave the plex. You have now doubled the time the farmer will have to run those plexes.
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#26 - 2014-04-25 15:30:57 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
You know, if you really want to **** on the farmers, once you get a system to 0%; def-plex all plexes down to about 1 minute and then leave the plex. You have now doubled the time the farmer will have to run those plexes.

thats standard in any home system.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#27 - 2014-04-28 01:46:29 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Rinai Vero wrote:
NPCs didn't stop the timer from running down in the old FW, and made plex fights completely unbalanced for actual PVP.
You had to kill all the rats before the latest changes. This was pretty much the only time the farmers actually abandoned FW.



Farmers have never abandoned fw since inferno.

Its also not true that players asked for the all changes ccp made. Players consistently said they did not want station lockouts. CCP did it anyway. It was a stupid change. Some changes - like not having after downtime being so important was something players wanted. CCP did that and it was a good change. Reducing the importance of npcs in a plex was also something players asked for and CCP did it. That was another good change.

3 changes that should still happen to help fw plexing are:

1) timer rollbacks

2) let players know where plexes are attacked

3) Don't allow booster alt effects to work in plexes unless the booster ship is in the plex.


Increasing the importance of rats is simply going in reverse.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#28 - 2014-04-28 02:45:56 UTC
Cearain wrote:

3) Don't allow booster alt effects to work in plexes unless the booster ship is in the plex.



Then you can complain about people having bigger corps or more friends and ask CCP to change the game again.

Many people have no problem with other people having the ability to put up a fight while outnumbered.


Why do a minority want to make eve pay to win by making it so only the person who can afford to consistently leeroy link ships on grid can use them?
(Of course they will also make sure their link ship are neutral so its not effecting their corp efficiency.)

It is just another form of pay to win if links go ongrid the richest players will be the only ones doing it.
The rest will camp on station undocks to be ongrid with their links and their will be no real pvp as we know it.


This is one of those 'Be careful what you wish for' situations.
Big smileBig smileBig smile

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#29 - 2014-04-28 03:09:12 UTC
IbanezLaney wrote:
Cearain wrote:

3) Don't allow booster alt effects to work in plexes unless the booster ship is in the plex.



Then you can complain about people having bigger corps or more friends and ask CCP to change the game again.




No, I just think the whole booster alt pvp is bad, and would like a place to escape it.

At the very least, if your t3 alt can't go in the plex its effects shouldn't go in the plex either.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#30 - 2014-04-28 04:51:08 UTC
Cearain wrote:
IbanezLaney wrote:
Cearain wrote:

3) Don't allow booster alt effects to work in plexes unless the booster ship is in the plex.



Then you can complain about people having bigger corps or more friends and ask CCP to change the game again.




No, I just think the whole booster alt pvp is bad, and would like a place to escape it.

At the very least, if your t3 alt can't go in the plex its effects shouldn't go in the plex either.


Remember:
ECM alts are the next thing on the list you must complain about because you will 'want a place to escape it'


What do you think people will do with those toons once they can't use them to boost?
ALUCARD 1208
Digital Ghosts
Nourv Gate Security Commission
#31 - 2014-04-28 06:04:42 UTC  |  Edited by: ALUCARD 1208
Cearain wrote:


2) let players know where plexes are attacked



Here we go again............. ill tell u were they are being attacked..... in BACKWATERS... like ive said before if ccp introduced something that told people were plexes were being popped i would pop erry one in erry system i pass

roam and find pvp u lazy ****

lets see how many pages cerain will bang on about this for......
Silverbackyererse
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#32 - 2014-04-28 08:11:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Silverbackyererse
+1 to annoyance mail spam tactics. Lol

And welcome back Cearain!!!
Dan Carter Murray
#33 - 2014-04-28 11:15:24 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:
All changes were made by player requests so FW is now fine, now stop making it better.


same response as always.

just the words get shuffled around.

your response algorithm needs some tweaking so we get surprised at your responses.

http://mfi.re/?j7ldoco 50GB free space @ MediaFire.com

Dan Carter Murray
#34 - 2014-04-28 11:18:39 UTC
Sister Lumi wrote:
It's all in the details.

Another minor fix we need is to make the plex NPC spawn closer to the warp-in beacon. It takes too long to get to lock range. Alternatively remove the unnecessary locking range and speed debuffs of warp core stabilizers.



I agree with the unnecessary locking range and speed debuffs because what you're trying to say is you shouldn't be able to lock at all. +1 for your great idea which I agree with 100%.

http://mfi.re/?j7ldoco 50GB free space @ MediaFire.com

Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2014-04-28 12:27:05 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Players consistently said they did not want station lockouts. CCP did it anyway. It was a stupid change.

I started playing after station lockouts, but it seems to be the only worthwhile reason to attack or defend a system.

It also makes logistics play a part in FW.

Why do you say it's stupid?

Did you guys have big multi-day fights over systems before station lockouts? If yes, why?

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#36 - 2014-04-28 13:58:23 UTC
IbanezLaney wrote:
Cearain wrote:
IbanezLaney wrote:
Cearain wrote:

3) Don't allow booster alt effects to work in plexes unless the booster ship is in the plex.



Then you can complain about people having bigger corps or more friends and ask CCP to change the game again.




No, I just think the whole booster alt pvp is bad, and would like a place to escape it.

At the very least, if your t3 alt can't go in the plex its effects shouldn't go in the plex either.


Remember:
ECM alts are the next thing on the list you must complain about because you will 'want a place to escape it'


What do you think people will do with those toons once they can't use them to boost?


ECM alts are also lame I won't deny it. But at least they show up on the killmail and have to be on grid. So its easier to identify these people and either avoid them or plan to kill them.

I don't know what people will do with the alts, maybe take them out of faction war and low sec, and use them in high sec or null sec. But the issue gets worse the longer ccp allows this to go on.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#37 - 2014-04-28 14:03:09 UTC
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:
Cearain wrote:


2) let players know where plexes are attacked



Here we go again............. ill tell u were they are being attacked..... in BACKWATERS... like ive said before if ccp introduced something that told people were plexes were being popped i would pop erry one in erry system i pass

roam and find pvp u lazy ****

lets see how many pages cerain will bang on about this for......


You still misconstrue what I am saying.

Opening a plex is not the same as attacking or running one. I am saying our military complexes should let us know when they are being run. That is the timer is running.

Its common sense. You want people to pvp for plexes let them know where the players are attacking them. But its well known that you like farmville so I know you won't like this idea.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#38 - 2014-04-28 14:22:59 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Players consistently said they did not want station lockouts. CCP did it anyway. It was a stupid change.

I started playing after station lockouts, but it seems to be the only worthwhile reason to attack or defend a system.


There was a time when people wanted to attack and defend a system for the great pvp. There were also economic incentives. That were driving people to plex. Unfortunately CCP did not take all the necessary actions to make sure the plexers were not just alts. They did take some actions here but not enough.

Gully Alex Foyle wrote:

It also makes logistics play a part in FW.



Not really. There was logistics before. Now the logistical options are more limited.

The only thing it did was help with station camping. But if ccp wanted to do that they would just need to say the enemy can't dock in the actual enemy faction war stations. That way people who don't know how to deal with station camps will have several stations they can choose from.



Gully Alex Foyle wrote:

Why do you say it's stupid?


It just means pvpers will become pirates instead of staying in faction war. Unless you are big into gate camping. Thats really the only reason to stay in fw.

Gully Alex Foyle wrote:

Did you guys have big multi-day fights over systems before station lockouts? If yes, why?


There were before and there were very big fights that started as a result of inferno. Right before inferno there were big fights in a few systems. It had to do with several changes that were happening at once.

1) Station lockouts
2) huge incentives to win the war
3) the number of plexes you need to run to flip a system was going to be 5xs what it used to be (or something like that)

Now because of the first factor the battles were largely fought in only a few systems. (plus many people couldn't participate because they were busy moving stuff out of systems they knew would fall) If 1 was not the case there would have been just as much fighting just more spread out. The idea would have been to spread out and capture as many plexes and systems as you could before 3 kicked in.

There were changes after inferno that made faction war extremely stagnant to the point where you think the only reason to capture a system is to kick your enemy out of a station. That had to do with how the rewards for system occupancy were paid.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#39 - 2014-04-28 14:57:59 UTC
Silverbackyererse wrote:
+1 to annoyance mail spam tactics. Lol

And welcome back Cearain!!!




It doesn't need to be mail spam. It could just be shown on a map. (assuming ccp can give us a map that doesn't crash the client.)

I don't recognize you but ,thanks for the welcome.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#40 - 2014-04-28 15:08:12 UTC
I thought Cearain ragequit Eve? Dude, you can't quit and then come back like nothing happened. You lose your street cred. We need an explanation - an inspiring story on why you resubbed to this wonderful game.