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Myrmidon Fit for L3 Missions
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Tendall Antollare
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2014-04-27 22:48:08 UTC
Would love to get feedback on the following fit for L3 missions:
http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/70065-PVE-L3-Myrmidon-Low-Skill-Armor-Tank.html

I've been running L3 missions in a Vexor, which has been interesting but sometimes painful (takes many runs to complete some of them), my Myrmidon fit (which I haven't tried yet), is based on the Vexor fit that I've been using.


Any suggestions/comments are welcome, but here are some of the choices that I questioned the most:

1a) I'm thinking that I want a broad set of resists, and I'm not anxious to change mods for each mission. As such, I've chosen:
"'Refuge' Adapative Nano Plating I" and "Limited Energized Explosive Membrane I". At my current skill levels this leads to the following resists:
EM Thermal Kinetic Explosive
58.8 46.5 46.5 52.3

I could go for general resists on both mods, but that seemed to leave Explosive very light. Here's my resists if I sub "Limited Energized Adapative Nano Membrane I" for "Limited Energized Explosive Membrane I"
EM Thermal Kinetic Explosive
65 54.5 54.5 37

1b) This begs a question (which maybe deserves it's own thread) - while running L2 or L3 missions in Eve I never had much ability to get information on what weapon types the bad guys were using or where their resists might be weak. I know other players quote websites like http://eve-survival.org/, but where do those posting to eve-survival get their data? Am I just missing important details from the UI during game play?

I'd like to get a better sense of whether that Explosive resist of 37% in the second choice above is truly inadequate across a broad section of missions or not. If not, then I get quite a boost on EM/Thermal/Kinetic.

Or maybe I just need to get use to swapping in mods for mission specific protection?


2) I'm still going with railguns right now, as I get nervous about the slow speed of my ship (or what feels slow, after flying with mostly destroyer & cruiser). But the "Modal Neutron Particle Accelartor I" looks tempting, except for the fact that on my current skills I have the following range/falloff (w/ AM charge):
2.3km/6.8km

Do people get used to that short a range?

Am I right in thinking that a Myrmidon doesn't have that great a range control, even considered for PVE?


3) A follow on question to #2, I'm still using a "Experimental 10MN Afterburner I", I've skilled up to use an MWD, but when I looked at specifics, I'm afraid of losing capacitor peak value. I'll probably try out a MWD on some safer looking mission first, but would love to hear comments on managing capacitor w/ a MWD (especially in the context of PVE).


TIA,

Tendall
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2014-04-27 23:04:50 UTC
You don't want blasters for PvE, especially unbonused ones, you'll spend more time chasing the rats down than doing damage to them.

That fit is, well, sub-optimal. You don't want buffer for missions, you want active tank and resists. Ogres are crap for PvE. Cap booster and cap recharger is plain stupid
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#3 - 2014-04-27 23:43:08 UTC
First, decide on close range (Microwarp drive and Ogres) or long range (Afterburner and Sentries).


On the resists: Use the single-damage type resists. They are worth the hassle of swapping around. "Omni tanking" - creating one fit for all missions - is something that should wait until you really know what you are doing.

On the armor plate: Don't mix repair modules and absolute hitpoint modules unless you have a very good reason for doing so (I know my most recent killboard loss did this, but I had a reason). In missions and 1v1 PVP, you want to focus on being able to endure sustained damage, which repair modules excel at. In many v many PVP and incursions and harder wormhole sites, you want to focus on being able to survive bursts of damage, which armor plates excel at. Also note that the Myrmidon favors the repair modules (by virtue of its powerful local repair bonus).

A suggested fit for Serpentis missions (Serpentis deal primarily Kinetic and Thermal damage; against other NPCs simply swap the hardeners):

Defensive modules:
Damage Control II (use the ~2 million ISK 'meta level 3' alternative if you cannot fit this, but train into it ASAP)
Medium Armor Repairer II (use the 'meta level 4' alternative if you cannot fit this, but tech 2 is much better)
Armor Kinetic Hardener II (the 'meta level' 3 and 4 versions are fine alternatives but tech 2 is much better)
Armor Thermic Hardener II (the 'meta level' 3 and 4 versions are fine alternatives but tech 2 is much better)

In a bad situation, you can overheat these hardeners and the repair module to roughly double the damage you can survive for 30-45 seconds.

Other low slots:
2 Drone Damage Amplifier II (tech 1 is just OK if you must)


Medium slots:

2 Omnidirectional Tracking Link I (T2 when possible) with tracking speed scripts. (These are loaded as ammo). Upgrade to T2 when possible.
One propulsion mod (AB or MWD).
One web (to slow down warp scrambling frigates that are in close orbit so your drones can kill them)
One Cap Recharger II


High slots:
If afterburner, the best railguns you can fit. If MWD, the best blasters you can fit.



Drones:
If blaster/MWD, 4 Ogre I or the Federation Navy verisons
If AB/Railguns, 4 Garde I or the Federation Navy versions
Either way, also carry 10 Warrior II (for warp scrambling frigates, you will lose a fair number of these) and 5 ECM drones (these help you escape some PVP situations, never try to scoop these, just use them, and if you get a lock RUN).


Rigs:
I'm partial to using rigs that improve your local repairs (Medium Auxillary Nano Pump) because your local repper is the most capacitor-hungry module you have (other than an MWD which is not on often).

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#4 - 2014-04-27 23:46:05 UTC
Edit: If you go the sentry drone route, be aware that Garde I sentries with the setup I provided work best at about ~35km. You should orbit your own sentries at very close range and scoop any that get into armor, wait 10 seconds, then redeploy them.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Nikolai Lachance
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2014-04-28 00:25:46 UTC
Here's a quick setup I'd probably use if I was doing L3s in a Myrm again:

[Myrmidon, PvE Damage]
Damage Control II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

10MN Afterburner II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Optimal Range Script
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Tracking Speed Script
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

250mm Railgun II, Thorium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Thorium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Thorium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Thorium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Thorium Charge M

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I

Hobgoblin II x5
Garde II x4
Hammerhead II x5
Salvage Drone I x5

Clearly this setup has a lot of tech 2 stuff, as my skills allow it. Downgrade modules as necessary. It's designed to swap out hardeners based on incoming damage types to be most effective. You can swap one of the explosive hardeners for an energized adaptive nano membrane if you want to be more Omni tanked but it won't be as effective against specific pirate groups that way.

I carry antimatter, thorium, and tungsten charges which provides a good set of shooting ranges for your guns. The primary idea is that you sit still and snipe with the sentries and shoot with guns. Try to take out small ships before they get close. If they do get close, pop out small or medium drones to take care of them.
Tendall Antollare
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2014-04-28 01:17:22 UTC
Sabriz, tremendously helpful reply, so thanks.


With my current skill set, my railguns are showing higher DPS than my drones, so I think I should stick with prioritizing railgun improving mods over drone improving mods. I will get to working the drone skills hard, but at least for a while I'm looking to prioritize tank and support skills. In the same vein, I do want to get to sentry drones, but it's not cheap to get there, so it'll be a while before I can do that.

One thing that a number of people have said is to go with 4 Ogre I's rather than 3 Ogre I's and 2 Hammerhead I's. On a DPS basis, the mixed drones look better, do Ogre I's have some other advantage?

I've updated the battleclinic loadout to reflect your suggestions (and others):
http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/70065-PVE-L3-Myrmidon-Low-Skill-Armor-Tank.html


One thing that suggests itself is that if my drone skills are not sufficient to benefit from maxing out drone enhancing mods on a myrmidon, maybe I should look at a Brutix instead. I'm trying that out now.
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#7 - 2014-04-28 02:36:05 UTC
Tendall Antollare wrote:
Sabriz, tremendously helpful reply, so thanks.


With my current skill set, my railguns are showing higher DPS than my drones, so I think I should stick with prioritizing railgun improving mods over drone improving mods. I will get to working the drone skills hard, but at least for a while I'm looking to prioritize tank and support skills. In the same vein, I do want to get to sentry drones, but it's not cheap to get there, so it'll be a while before I can do that.

One thing that a number of people have said is to go with 4 Ogre I's rather than 3 Ogre I's and 2 Hammerhead I's. On a DPS basis, the mixed drones look better, do Ogre I's have some other advantage?

I've updated the battleclinic loadout to reflect your suggestions (and others):
http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/70065-PVE-L3-Myrmidon-Low-Skill-Armor-Tank.html


One thing that suggests itself is that if my drone skills are not sufficient to benefit from maxing out drone enhancing mods on a myrmidon, maybe I should look at a Brutix instead. I'm trying that out now.


If you are more comfortable using rails than Brutix is for you. Just don't focus too much on the DPS numbers. There is usually a lot more to the story.

My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#8 - 2014-04-28 04:01:04 UTC
Tendall Antollare wrote:
Sabriz, tremendously helpful reply, so thanks.


With my current skill set, my railguns are showing higher DPS than my drones, so I think I should stick with prioritizing railgun improving mods over drone improving mods. I will get to working the drone skills hard, but at least for a while I'm looking to prioritize tank and support skills. In the same vein, I do want to get to sentry drones, but it's not cheap to get there, so it'll be a while before I can do that.

One thing that a number of people have said is to go with 4 Ogre I's rather than 3 Ogre I's and 2 Hammerhead I's. On a DPS basis, the mixed drones look better, do Ogre I's have some other advantage?

I've updated the battleclinic loadout to reflect your suggestions (and others):
http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/70065-PVE-L3-Myrmidon-Low-Skill-Armor-Tank.html


One thing that suggests itself is that if my drone skills are not sufficient to benefit from maxing out drone enhancing mods on a myrmidon, maybe I should look at a Brutix instead. I'm trying that out now.



As stated the Brutix is more suited to someone with better gunnery skills than drone skills.

As for the drone setup: Hammerheads and Ogres will get split up (different travel time), will prioritise different targets when not manually commanded (spreading damage which is bad when each rat individually repairs) and Hammerheads will die more often in practice than the (tough) Ogres when you are at close range.

For experienced players 3x O, 2x H will be better, but when you have less experience, 4x O will function better in practice against larger ships (and 5x Warrior II against the small ones).

I have no experience flying the Brutix myself, although the same general principles will apply. Seriously consider downgrading drones to 5 light - light drones do half the damage of medium but have substantially better tracking (enabling them to accurately hit warp scrambling elite frigates, the biggest danger in missions) and lower signature radius (making them harder for enemies to hit, and causing hostile cruisers and larger to almost never attack them at all).

You will want to consider midslot mods that enhance your tracking, and again you will want to make a decision: blasters with a microwarpdrive (used only when approaching hostiles), or railguns with an afterburner (used almost constantly).

I advise against even considering the Talos (the third Gallente battlecruiser). It is a very niche ship - exceptional at dealing damage to battlecruiser and larger targets fast, but it is a real glass cannon, and as such struggles to survive in mission environments.

It is an outstanding ship, however, in small gang PVP engagements, and is one of the four best ships in the entire game for suicide ganking. With my skills it can deal over 30000 damage to a stationary target in a 0.5 sec status highsec system before being destroyed by CONCORD - four or five of those can destroy multi-billion ISK incursion battleships, potentially resulting in a nice loot windfall for the attackers. So keep it in mind for the near future, once you feel you have learned all you can of the game interface from running missions.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#9 - 2014-04-28 04:06:53 UTC
Iria Ahrens wrote:

If you are more comfortable using rails than Brutix is for you. Just don't focus too much on the DPS numbers. There is usually a lot more to the story.



Really want to echo this.

Your fitting window DPS is the damage you do at optimal (or lower) range to a target when you are both stationary.

If you are at optimal + 0.5 falloffs, this drops to ~85%. Opt + 1 F, ~40%. Opt + 2F, ~6%

If you aren't stationary, you can also lose damage due to tracking. If the target is the same size as your guns (so a cruiser when you are using cruiser-size guns like a Brutix uses, or a battleship when using the battleship turrets of a Talos), you will do only 40% of standard damage if they are moving with angular velocity equal to your tracking, and 6% at 2x your tracking. Shooting smaller ship classes (frigates with a Brutix) this penalty is triple or more.

This is why I personally use webs on blaster ships. A tech 2 web drops a target's move speed to 40% and two of them drops it to 19%. This dramatically increases your accuracy at point-blank range.


One of the good things about light drones is that while their 'paper damage' numbers are poor, they apply that damage exceptionally well, something the medium drones sometimes fail to do.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Snagletooth Johnson
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2014-04-28 05:10:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Snagletooth Johnson
4x 250mm Railgun II
1x Drone Link Augmentor I (I'm a few days out from T2)
4x Cap Recharger II
1x 10mn Afterburner II
2x Medium Armor Repairer II
2x Armor Thermatic Hardener II
2 x Armor Kinetic Hardener II
1x Medium Drone Durability Enhancer I
2x Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Javelin M (short range)
Spike M (long range)
Antimatter Charge M (standard)
Federation Navy Antimatter Charge M (when I need a little extra umph)
15X Hobgoblin II (primary)
10x Hammerhead II (for BC/BB)
5x Salvage Drone I
1x Mobile Tractor Unit

This fit almost never even moves the armor gauge. with the dual reppers I don't even need to change out the hardeners. Cap stable. Generally use just the antimatter M, it's cheap. I try and make sure I take most of the damage, that way the Hobi's take very little to no damage. I lose one maybe every 10-20 missions. I break out the hammers when it's all BC or bigger. I carry salvage, but that's only for small missions. Most L3's won't fit in the hold and Ill go get my Noctis to clean up.

I can do quite a few L4's with this. The hard part is cap stable. Once you get youre grid and CPU up to handle the reps, gunnery don't matter, it's just for sniping for aggro and helping the Hob's with tougher targets (just to save some time).

Obviously this isn't low skill, so you'd be using tech 1 gear. same setup, but you might have to move around more often to keep down the incoming damage until you can fit T2 reps/hardeners. Damage Control is useless in hi-sec missions unless you're worried about getting ganked...even then, without armor plates, it won't do you much good. It's a costly waste of cpu
Thomas Builder
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2014-04-28 05:15:56 UTC
Tendall Antollare wrote:
1b) This begs a question (which maybe deserves it's own thread) - while running L2 or L3 missions in Eve I never had much ability to get information on what weapon types the bad guys were using or where their resists might be weak. I know other players quote websites like http://eve-survival.org/, but where do those posting to eve-survival get their data? Am I just missing important details from the UI during game play?
The UI won't tell you much, only how much damage you sustained. You can squeeze a bit more information out of it, but that's not where eve-survival gets it data.

CCP publishes a database with the data for pretty much every object in game. ( http://community.eveonline.com/community/fansites/toolkit/ - however they are published as MSSQL database backups, so most people use third party websites that extracted that data ) While the database doesn't say anything directly about the damage in a mission, it does say something about the damage done by a specific ship. E.g.:

Gistum Marauder
Turrets: 53 Exp 18 Kin per hit, 2.5 sec RoF
Missiles: 135 Exp per hit, 16.3 sec RoF

After that, you just have to count the ships in a mission and look up the data for them.

Also, most ships of the same faction have very similar resists and damage profiles, so most people just go with the average numbers for that faction. ( E.g. Angel ships deal mostly Explosive damage (+ a bit of the others) and are weak to it as well; Blood Raiders exclusively deal EM and Thermal damage and are weak against EM, etc. ) That's usually enough to know, even if some missions deviate from the average.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#12 - 2014-04-28 05:52:18 UTC
Snagletooth Johnson wrote:
Damage Control is useless in hi-sec missions unless you're worried about getting ganked...even then, without armor plates, it won't do you much good. It's a costly waste of cpu



The reason for a Damage Control is that it buys you time - a lot of time - to GTFO if you screw up badly. Especially in Gallente ships, which have a lot of structure HP.

The Brutix has 4750 structure HP baseline (~5500 when skills are accounted for). Without a Damage Control, that's 5500 effective HP between touching into structure and popping. With one, it's around 14 thousand.

Assuming you are taking 500 damage per second (full pocket aggro and mismanaged triggers in a level 3), it's the difference between 11 seconds and 28 seconds to have your drones kill the scramming frigs and warp to the sun once you get into structure. Given that this will (if you have any cap at all) let your armor repper pulse (on overheat) a few more times, it is even more likely to save you.


Once the OP gets experience, they should consider replacing the DC II (or meta 3 version) with another damage module, but you should always overtank ships early on.


As for ganking - I am a ganker, and I wouldn't touch a Brutix unless the owner had either really, really annoyed me, or I had intel that they often fit extremely expensive modules to their ships (for instance, if Joe Missioner purchased a Centum A-type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane I from one of my market orders for 970 million ISK, I'd be inclined to suicide gank his Brutix). Most PvE Brutix fits are new-ish players with 10-20 million of modules on their ship - at the absolute best I might get a Sisters probe launcher (~40m).




Finally, on cap stability. This is not the holy grail it is often made out to be. Even a cap stable ship can run out of capacitor if it overheats armor repair modules for any period of time (learn to do this, it will save you, overheating guns is almost solely for PVP but overheating your tank is a critical skill in PVE), or if enemies use energy neutralizers on you, which is the case in the hardest level 3 mission (Blockade - Blood Raiders). You want to learn when to conserve capacitor and when you need to use it right now. Experiment with the different types of capacitor modules (static cap rechargers, and the charge-using ones) - they are both useful. (Most PVE players prefer the static ones because the charge-using ones require you remembering to refill your cargo hold with them each mission, but the charge-using ones do the job, and are extremely effective if you wind up in unexpected PVP).

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Snagletooth Johnson
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2014-04-28 06:41:34 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Snagletooth Johnson wrote:
Damage Control is useless in hi-sec missions unless you're worried about getting ganked...even then, without armor plates, it won't do you much good. It's a costly waste of cpu



The reason for a Damage Control is that it buys you time - a lot of time - to GTFO if you screw up badly. Especially in Gallente ships, which have a lot of structure HP.

The Brutix has 4750 structure HP baseline (~5500 when skills are accounted for). Without a Damage Control, that's 5500 effective HP between touching into structure and popping. With one, it's around 14 thousand.

Assuming you are taking 500 damage per second (full pocket aggro and mismanaged triggers in a level 3), it's the difference between 11 seconds and 28 seconds to have your drones kill the scramming frigs and warp to the sun once you get into structure. Given that this will (if you have any cap at all) let your armor repper pulse (on overheat) a few more times, it is even more likely to save you.


Once the OP gets experience, they should consider replacing the DC II (or meta 3 version) with another damage module, but you should always overtank ships early on.


As for ganking - I am a ganker, and I wouldn't touch a Brutix unless the owner had either really, really annoyed me, or I had intel that they often fit extremely expensive modules to their ships (for instance, if Joe Missioner purchased a Centum A-type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane I from one of my market orders for 970 million ISK, I'd be inclined to suicide gank his Brutix). Most PvE Brutix fits are new-ish players with 10-20 million of modules on their ship - at the absolute best I might get a Sisters probe launcher (~40m).




Finally, on cap stability. This is not the holy grail it is often made out to be. Even a cap stable ship can run out of capacitor if it overheats armor repair modules for any period of time (learn to do this, it will save you, overheating guns is almost solely for PVP but overheating your tank is a critical skill in PVE), or if enemies use energy neutralizers on you, which is the case in the hardest level 3 mission (Blockade - Blood Raiders). You want to learn when to conserve capacitor and when you need to use it right now. Experiment with the different types of capacitor modules (static cap rechargers, and the charge-using ones) - they are both useful. (Most PVE players prefer the static ones because the charge-using ones require you remembering to refill your cargo hold with them each mission, but the charge-using ones do the job, and are extremely effective if you wind up in unexpected PVP).


It's mission running, not rocket science. If you need a DC to run a mish, you failed already. If you need to overheat to run a mish, you failed already....hell, you might as well have the guy hull tank, same logic.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#14 - 2014-04-28 07:04:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Sabriz Adoudel
Snagletooth Johnson wrote:

It's mission running, not rocket science. If you need a DC to run a mish, you failed already. If you need to overheat to run a mish, you failed already....hell, you might as well have the guy hull tank, same logic.


This is just bad advice for newbies and veterans alike.

Any veteran that doesn't overheat strategically in PVE is being too cautious and taking too much time. Use less tanking modules, more damage ones, and overheat the defensive ones in the critical phases of the mission. It's ABC of blitzing - hell, I'm not a PVE focused player at all and I understand that.

But this is newbie Q&A - where people should be recommending cautious fits. Newbies make mistakes and missions are there so they can learn the game interface in an environment where your foes are predictable and stupid. And newbies don't automatically find missions trivial - between their lower fitting abilities, slower reflexes and lower gunnery/tanking skills, rats that pose no threat to me unless I'm distracted or really careless actually can pose a threat to newbies. So it is basic common sense to overtank at first, then grow out of the over-cautious fits.


Not to mention that learning to overheat strategically in combat will turn a player from a poor PVPer into an adequate one, or turn an adequate PVPer into a decent one with just that one change.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com