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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Battleships

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1361 - 2014-04-24 23:50:49 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Whatever the rattlesnake becomes, I am uncomfortable with it becoming a platform, where the only practical option is rapid lights and heavies.


Those are far from the only options. It can use any of the nine types of missile launchers.
Angelina Joliee
Malakim Zealots
Angel Cartel
#1362 - 2014-04-24 23:51:34 UTC
I would love the rattle to keep at least a little buff for small/medium drones.
Something like 25% to all drones PLUS 250% to heavy/sentry (instead of 275%). Haven't done the math precisely, but I hope, you recognize the direction I mean.
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#1363 - 2014-04-24 23:59:57 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Whatever the rattlesnake becomes, I am uncomfortable with it becoming a platform, where the only practical option is rapid lights and heavies.


Those are far from the only options. It can use any of the nine types of missile launchers.

And you could put 250mm Arty on a Machariel, that doesn't mean you should.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1364 - 2014-04-25 00:10:55 UTC
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Whatever the rattlesnake becomes, I am uncomfortable with it becoming a platform, where the only practical option is rapid lights and heavies.


Those are far from the only options. It can use any of the nine types of missile launchers.

And you could put 250mm Arty on a Machariel, that doesn't mean you should.


Mach doesnt get a 50% bonus to all projectile weapons.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1365 - 2014-04-25 00:34:00 UTC
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Whatever the rattlesnake becomes, I am uncomfortable with it becoming a platform, where the only practical option is rapid lights and heavies.


Those are far from the only options. It can use any of the nine types of missile launchers.

And you could put 250mm Arty on a Machariel, that doesn't mean you should.


Are you actually that obtuse?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1366 - 2014-04-25 05:51:12 UTC



Any idea on when these proposed changes might be live on the test server??

More than halfway through Autumn here, so a little over 1 month till they are supposed to be going live on TQ.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1367 - 2014-04-25 06:30:38 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:



Any idea on when these proposed changes might be live on the test server??

More than halfway through Autumn here, so a little over 1 month till they are supposed to be going live on TQ.

'Summer' meaning the expansion will be sometime in Summer. Not 'the second summer hits these will be live'
They could still be four months away and fit summer, let alone if they let it run a little late for some reason into very early autumn.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1368 - 2014-04-25 06:31:26 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
gascanu wrote:


i'm sorry but you are wrong; drones do not fire when mwding, and as soon as they get in range they shut down the mwd; the web will slow them out of range and they need to mwd again for 1 cycle to get in range and so on;
all that that have been explained before...

there is a big difference: webbing one out of 5 drones will make you lose 20% dps, so basically no one do that; webbing one out of 2 drones will make you lose 50% dps. that's a pretty big difference don't you think?


No. The situation that you describe simply reflects an incorrect choice of drone by the Rattlesnake pilot. I keep on explaining this but it's not sinking in. The Rattlesnake pilot should not be using heavy drones in this situation so the problem that you describe should never arise.

The only way that you will be able to use a web to drive a heavy drone out of activation range in the way that you describe is if you are flying a fast ship that is not itself tackled. In which case, the Rattlesnake pilot should not be using heavy drones. It should be using sentries.

If you are attempting to orbit around 10 km, then, yes, you can try to web an incoming heavy drone. I've tested this and it doesn't work very well. The heavies are too fast and you're too close. Yes, you could then attempt to burn away and web the drone down, but in this case you just switch to sentries - and frankly you shouldn't have been able to have done this anyway, because of counter-tackle.

You will only have 7 Drones in your drone bay, 6 if you carry a flight of lights (presuming most will).
To be at all usable as a Drone Boat, your alternatives will be - Heavies OR Sentries, the "and" Sentries has been pretty much removed.
Mix your drones at best you will have 1 spare drone per flight.
Choice - Gardes or Bouncers, cover range options.
Choice - Ogres or Beserkers, Cover Speed and Dps
With either combo you can carry 1 spare of each.
Mix Heavies & Sentries, do you go for long range, short range, speed or Dps?

If you are already in orbit at 10k and see heavy drones pop out, align away, your doing 3 to 4 X the speed the Heavies are, you'll quickly pull range on them and as your doing so you are locking them up.. There is only 2, not too hard to target 2 Drones. The drones have you aggressed so will follow as far as you lead, they can not fire upon you unless you stop and allow them to drop from MWD into orbit (drone activation proximity).
You will take a few hits from the drones while dragging them but as long as you keep them more than 5,001 m from you, they can not apply meaningful Dps.
Treat Super Heavies as you would an attacking frigate. React accordingly. If you would die to 2 T1 frigates with a maximum range of 5,000 m and can only shoot while orbiting at a maximum speed of 600 m/s, you will die to 2 super heavies.

Probably nowhere near as easy as it sounds but a bunch of frigates shouldn't be able to kill a carrier either, yet it happens.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1369 - 2014-04-25 06:37:29 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:



Any idea on when these proposed changes might be live on the test server??

More than halfway through Autumn here, so a little over 1 month till they are supposed to be going live on TQ.

'Summer' meaning the expansion will be sometime in Summer. Not 'the second summer hits these will be live'
They could still be four months away and fit summer, let alone if they let it run a little late for some reason into very early autumn.

So by your reasoning, these changes needn't be put on the test server until - 1 week before release acceptable?
Or like like Rapid launchers - they hit the test server "after" they were live on TQ.

Question is still relevant - when are these changes likely to hit the Test Server -

Splitting hairs over when summer is may be fun and all but seriously?

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#1370 - 2014-04-25 07:12:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
The "summer" expansions tend to hit in June or so. Additionally, CCP Habakuk has indicated that there will probably be a new mirror applied to SiSi very shortly before FanFest, which will probably be when we see these - and the other summer changes - come up for testing.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1371 - 2014-04-25 08:41:59 UTC
Has it ever happened where once something has hit the test server that the rebalance has been re-evaluated?

Or is it that once it hits the test server, only very minor variations take place, leaving things in the majority unchanged?

The impression I am getting is that once it reaches that stage, it is pretty set in stone.

Either way, I hope CCP rise will respond soon, and take the differing views into account. Before we reach that late stage.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#1372 - 2014-04-25 09:05:14 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:

If you are already in orbit at 10k and see heavy drones pop out, align away, your doing 3 to 4 X the speed the Heavies are, you'll quickly pull range on them and as your doing so you are locking them up.. There is only 2, not too hard to target 2 Drones. The drones have you aggressed so will follow as far as you lead, they can not fire upon you unless you stop and allow them to drop from MWD into orbit (drone activation proximity).
You will take a few hits from the drones while dragging them but as long as you keep them more than 5,001 m from you, they can not apply meaningful Dps.
Treat Super Heavies as you would an attacking frigate. React accordingly. If you would die to 2 T1 frigates with a maximum range of 5,000 m and can only shoot while orbiting at a maximum speed of 600 m/s, you will die to 2 super heavies.

Probably nowhere near as easy as it sounds but a bunch of frigates shouldn't be able to kill a carrier either, yet it happens.


You carry the same number of flights of heavies/sentries as before. 400 m3 = 3 flights and some lights, 175 m3 = 3 flights and some lights.

Don't use heavies against fast, untackled targets capable of burning away from you. Use sentries. If you do use them and someone breaks your tackle, recall them and deploy sentries. I can't believe how many time I've had to say this, is it really so hard to understand?
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1373 - 2014-04-25 10:12:37 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Gypsio III wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:

If you are already in orbit at 10k and see heavy drones pop out, align away, your doing 3 to 4 X the speed the Heavies are, you'll quickly pull range on them and as your doing so you are locking them up.. There is only 2, not too hard to target 2 Drones. The drones have you aggressed so will follow as far as you lead, they can not fire upon you unless you stop and allow them to drop from MWD into orbit (drone activation proximity).
You will take a few hits from the drones while dragging them but as long as you keep them more than 5,001 m from you, they can not apply meaningful Dps.
Treat Super Heavies as you would an attacking frigate. React accordingly. If you would die to 2 T1 frigates with a maximum range of 5,000 m and can only shoot while orbiting at a maximum speed of 600 m/s, you will die to 2 super heavies.

Probably nowhere near as easy as it sounds but a bunch of frigates shouldn't be able to kill a carrier either, yet it happens.


You carry the same number of flights of heavies/sentries as before. 400 m3 = 3 flights and some lights, 175 m3 = 3 flights and some lights.

Don't use heavies against fast, untackled targets capable of burning away from you. Use sentries. If you do use them and someone breaks your tackle, recall them and deploy sentries. I can't believe how many time I've had to say this, is it really so hard to understand?

But unfortunately the whole balance is now disturbed, the light end of the equation has changed, heavies are now fewer targets to shoot down, to deploy sentries, one needs to recall slow moving heavies, omnidirectionals have also changed recently,

I am not saying that it is impossible to manage, the issue is that on the battleship class, the superdrone concept needs a little more looking at as it has made the drone system as a whole unbalanced..

There are various options that can help rebalance things, but just focusing on the individual points and seeing how they can be worked around does not show they are still balanced and still truly effective.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#1374 - 2014-04-25 10:52:56 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Has it ever happened where once something has hit the test server that the rebalance has been re-evaluated?

Or is it that once it hits the test server, only very minor variations take place, leaving things in the majority unchanged?

The impression I am getting is that once it reaches that stage, it is pretty set in stone.

Either way, I hope CCP rise will respond soon, and take the differing views into account. Before we reach that late stage.



i remember player feedback on the test server has lead to changes. on what exactly i cant remember.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#1375 - 2014-04-25 11:27:02 UTC  |  Edited by: gascanu
Gypsio III wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:

If you are already in orbit at 10k and see heavy drones pop out, align away, your doing 3 to 4 X the speed the Heavies are, you'll quickly pull range on them and as your doing so you are locking them up.. There is only 2, not too hard to target 2 Drones. The drones have you aggressed so will follow as far as you lead, they can not fire upon you unless you stop and allow them to drop from MWD into orbit (drone activation proximity).
You will take a few hits from the drones while dragging them but as long as you keep them more than 5,001 m from you, they can not apply meaningful Dps.
Treat Super Heavies as you would an attacking frigate. React accordingly. If you would die to 2 T1 frigates with a maximum range of 5,000 m and can only shoot while orbiting at a maximum speed of 600 m/s, you will die to 2 super heavies.

Probably nowhere near as easy as it sounds but a bunch of frigates shouldn't be able to kill a carrier either, yet it happens.


You carry the same number of flights of heavies/sentries as before. 400 m3 = 3 flights and some lights, 175 m3 = 3 flights and some lights.



it's not the same:
atm i carry 2 sets of sentrys(heavys) and that leave me with 150 m3 of free that you can use for 2 sets of meds 1 set of lights 1 set of ecm; or 1 set of meds, 1 set of med ecm 2 sets of light; or any other combination of med/light bonused drones
on the "rebalaced" version, after 2 flights of heavy/sentrys you are left with 75 m3: that's 1 set of meds and 1 set of lights(or ecm) or 3 sets of lights/ecm all of them unbonused
so, 400 m3 is better than 17m3, it give you much more flexibility, not to mention increase hp and dps on the lights/mediums

Quote:
Don't use heavies against fast, untackled targets capable of burning away from you. Use sentries. If you do use them and someone breaks your tackle, recall them and deploy sentries. I can't believe how many time I've had to say this, is it really so hard to understand?


you keep saying that, but it's really not that simple: like i saiyng earlier, you cannot dictate range in a rattlesnake;
so assuming you have a tackler landing at 20 km from you, you drop sentyrs, he will close range so your sentrys won't be able to track him; you need to scoop sentry, deploy heavys them but if he can just take range, your heavy drone will folow; that's the moment when he's stopping taking dmg from your drones, and from here he can do allot of things: kill your drones, or ignore them. or... you can recall them ofc, but that will take time and if they not die by time you scoop them and have sentrys out, it's the same story again
it's easy to say "Don't use heavies against fast, untackled targets capable of burning away from you. Use sentries" but you ignore that a fast hac ca be both of that in just 5-10" ; he can be under your sentrys tracking right now, and out of your scrambler several moments latter;
to be abble to tackle something in a rattlesnake, you need to have a scrambler and a web fitted. or this it's not a comon fit on a rattle excepting baitting ones; atm you use your drone flexibility to get you out of trouble, after the rebalance, you get pointed, you have to pray that your ecm drone will get a jam( if you have them), or you will have to fit a scrambler/web for "defensive needs", on an already "cramped " ship

edit: in fact, against " fast, untackled targets capable of burning away from you" the best solution in most cases it's not sentry drones, it's light or medium drones; yea, those drones that are getting the nerf hammer in the new rattlesnake
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#1376 - 2014-04-25 11:49:44 UTC
Tracking on Gardes isn't that bad. In fact, it's nearly on par with unbonused frigate guns. Any Tracking mods at all and something cruiser sized will still get hit at pretty close range.

And remember, this is no T1 Domi--- they will be eating a face full of whatever missile you choose to load as well, or else you LMJD'd 100km away a few seconds after they arrived, and they now get to close under fire.

Of course, this assumes one vs. one and your Rattler has no support to tackle.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#1377 - 2014-04-25 12:01:14 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Has it ever happened where once something has hit the test server that the rebalance has been re-evaluated?

Or is it that once it hits the test server, only very minor variations take place, leaving things in the majority unchanged?

The impression I am getting is that once it reaches that stage, it is pretty set in stone.

Either way, I hope CCP rise will respond soon, and take the differing views into account. Before we reach that late stage.



i remember player feedback on the test server has lead to changes. on what exactly i cant remember.



IIRC, the heavy missile nerf last year. It was waaaaaay worse on the first iteration.
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#1378 - 2014-04-25 12:02:08 UTC
no, i assume the most common scenario; rattle is a pve ship;
in a gang, it's an entire other story, there depends of gang compositon and allot of other conditions
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1379 - 2014-04-25 12:07:58 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
The "summer" expansions tend to hit in June or so. Additionally, CCP Habakuk has indicated that there will probably be a new mirror applied to SiSi very shortly before FanFest, which will probably be when we see these - and the other summer changes - come up for testing.

Thanks, I'd missed the announcement from CCP Habakuk.
Hopefully we will all soon be able to see and test the changes. Put some of the speculation to rest and where needed buy different ships Ugh

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1380 - 2014-04-25 12:18:46 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Yes, the effects of the change to heavy drones and superdrones is not automatically bad, but it seems that the disadvantages are not balanced out.
One can argue that they do not need more than a bonus to equal 5 drones or argue that unbonused lights and mediums are just not "needed" and losing 25km of control range is unimportant and people should fit a MWD as well as a LMJD if they do not want to wait around, And HTFU, Rollbut what are superdrones for then? What benefit do they bring?

I see the point in reducing drones to reduce server load under certain conditions, but the rattlesnake is meant to be the flagship application of this new concept, but it is the least balanced and worst implementation of it.

Your ideas on balancing them a little better are good, I still feel that eliminating the effectiveness of smaller drones with a severe reduction in bay size and complete removal of bonuses, wildly unbalances them, and guarantees that the bigger the ship the worse the balance? Your idea does work though if there is some reason to cripple light and medium drones, and would bring benefits even without correcting that.

I know some people are arguing against correcting the change of drone systems balance, but anything where an implementation hurts the larger class more is more likely to be accidental than deliberate.

I do not remember a wide outcry that light and medium drones were vastly overpowered, so why is there a need to completely nerf them into insignificance.

If they somehow make the ship wildly overpowered, it is likely that they are not the problem, just showing up the imbalance of something else.

Restoring the balance to light and medium drones, and implementing your superdrone amendments, will help things immensely, and any suggestion of restoring an overpowered system should look at what, if anything, is causing that. And amending that system to restore whatever powerlevel and balance is required.

Nerfing the innocent system, and ignoring the real issue will not end well, no matter who it might please in the short term, it will result in a ship that limps along for another couple of years until it is done right eventually.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE