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New dev blog: Player Owned Customs Offices: An update!

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Etherimos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#561 - 2011-12-02 01:10:14 UTC
Tell you what, you can charge whatever stupid tax rate you want for the Interbus etc CO's. Give me a ship I can train up to fly to the surface to bring the stuff off myself.

This means new skills, new ships AND will give those DUST weasels something else to shoot the heck out of if/when CCP actually gets their **** together and brings it to market!
Palicima
Cimmerian Brotherhood
#562 - 2011-12-02 01:13:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Palicima
way to go CCP as always you make things miserable by thinking and screwing things up more then humanly possible.

May dust become a huge flop.
Jita Alt666
#563 - 2011-12-02 01:22:12 UTC
mkint wrote:
Scarlett Ninja wrote:

Wasn't there a blog about making it easier for smaller corps or solo players to move to 0.0 and how it would be made harder for bigger alliances to gank those players so they could get established?

Please could CCP explain to me why you have deliberately stopped me, you fee paying customer with 3 acc, from accessing this game feature in favor of the huge alliances whom i think already have a monopoly of so many resources.

There is no future in EVE for groups smaller than 2,000 people. That is why EVE will die. I don't know if devs are being bribed with RMT, or they are just incredibly myopic. Either way, I'm not sure I've ever been more convinced that EVE online has an expiration date, and that it's closer than anyone suspected.


myopia is great within the.

150-200 players can do wonders in this game.
LB Wrench
Setenta Corp
Scumlords
#564 - 2011-12-02 01:25:24 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:

Quote:

You do realize that once the prices stop fluctuating and the market has adjusted to the new tax rate, that you will be making at least as much profit as you did before... with the option to make a much higher profit margin if you ever decide "you want" to venture into Low Sec.



And you do realise that not many ppl has the isk to put up 6 POCO's, with even less HPs then interbus, just to watch them blow, next time someone drops by and are bored... ?

I dont mind Low Sec.. i go there regularly.. i dont mind PI, or the risk.. i do mind to put up a 120 million investment on each planet i may choose to do PI (720 million for 6), just to have it blown up 2 days later.. and if im in luck, they may even take out all 6.. how long do you think you have any isk, if ure replacing POCOs on daily status? - or are PI only for the rich.. ups.. i forgot.. it is.. - the rich alliances, and we wouldnt have anything change that, now would we..

"Get defense fleets" - sure.. i just happen to know someone with 30 supercaps that wont mind dropping in, each time a Pirate fleet are bored.. and off course you can fully trust that should you arrange a deal with the local pirate corp they will honor it, and leave youre POCO alone.. riight.. i also sell green teddybears made out of moon-cheese.. want one?

POCO's dont belong in Low Sec - period. Its not about risk, its about protecting ure investment. Only a idiot puts up ressources for 720 million every now and then, to gain the few millions you can gain daily pr planet. Even with risen prises, its a very long term return.. And the second someone blows it up - well.. guess what.. youre expenses just went through the roof.. Risk vs reward.. sure... in this case.. epic fail. There is a 100% risk, and a 1% reward...

if Low/Null sec'ers really want more ppl to drop into LS/NS, and come/stay there.. then this is a perfect moment to show that Low/Null sec really are a place worth it... and that you can go such places without the risk/or a smaller risk of getting blown up, and more importently - that they leave URE investment alone. (preferly without you having to sell youre mother to afford it).

The protests against the POCO in LS isnt about risk vs reward.. while the taxes are a b*tch.. in time, you may be able to work youre PI to a level where its covered... but what you CANT work in, over time is the continious loss of POCO's...
Dont ask people to go in and sacrifice themself just to feed you a KM, then complain when they wont come and stay in ure space... give a little.. get a little..

- LB
Gasm
Colossus Enterprises
#565 - 2011-12-02 01:38:40 UTC
CCP: We are deliberately and stubbornly staying stupid

me: ok, that's about what i expected
Misstress Zain
Lost Soul Society
#566 - 2011-12-02 01:40:31 UTC
Jim Hooknose wrote:
Misstress Zain wrote:
So please yes quit PI throw in the towel, and sit on the forums and whine while I grow rich in EvE. Heaven forbid you do anything constructive like make your own centers in low sec, talk with similar corps about building and protecting some to use in low sec, NPC null, WH etc. I always forget this is EvE online instead of actually getting off your rear to work around a problem or go around it... lets just flood the forum with tears as usual. Ugh


The issue with this is I don't want to go to non-empire space unless I want do it. I am not a fan of being forced into a playstyle that I don't want to play. It's akin to Blizzard suddenly making all rogues (or thieves, whatever they are called) warriors without their consent.

The change is a blatant move by CCP to do three things simultaneously:
1.) Punish empire dwellers
2.) Punish WH dwellers
3.) Make life easier on null sec alliances


So basically you want to make just as much isk as i do in high sec, where your in relative safety, while I put forth over all the isk to put up my on customs centers, all the while makeing the products in a place that I can be killed or kicked out of any minute. Seems fair and balanced. I bet you also play from Ocuppy Wall Street lol.

Second you arent being forced into another playstyle, you still have centers to use, but you also have the choice to go to other sections of space and make more isk. To modify a line off Spiderman, "With great isk comes great risk."

And thrid this doesnt punish WH dwellers, at least not in my WH we are back to full capacity with our own centers.

Oh and P.S- never make WoW or whatever game that was in EvE again, please
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#567 - 2011-12-02 01:45:48 UTC
Sigh.

ArrowStep 1:
If you decide you wish to continue to do PI in Low Sec, simply keep doing what you are doing. The Interbus CO is still there. Wait for prices to stabilize. You will still make more money than you would on a similar number of planets in High Sec despite a slightly higher tax rate due to the larger volume available.

ArrowStep 2:
Keep this up until you are comfortable with the threat level to PI operations in your chosen area. If the Interbus CO gets blown up in short order, keep an eye on if it is replaced and if it is see if it's available for your use at a reasonable rate... if not trash your setup and move on. You have lost nothing but the infrastructure you are currently thinking about trashing anyway.

If your Interbus CO stays up (which is likely) you can then make an educated threat assessment concerning the option of putting up your own. Contrary to popular belief, shooting down structures is not a fun enterprise. In fact is is one of the highest rated items on the "things to try and avoid doing in EVE" list unless you have an eye on that corner of space yourself.

ArrowStep 3:
Keep track of your now improved income. Pay off your investment in the POCO and continue to earn higher profits than the majority of your competition.

ArrowStep 4:
If your POCO does get blown up, check your records and see if the venture paid for itself and produced a better profit than a High Sec operation for a comparable period of time.

If it did, and the people that blew up your POCO are not new residents to the area likely to do it again, put up another one.

If it did not, or if the people look like they are new residents, aggressive, and unwilling to work with you then search for a more profitable area.


This really isn't that hard a concept to grasp people.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Kelsi Darr
Orbital Express LTD
Trystero GmbH
#568 - 2011-12-02 01:47:20 UTC

Seems like a lot of anger?
Me, I quit PI once, I can quit it again.
No muss, fuss! Big smile
ZaBob
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#569 - 2011-12-02 01:56:01 UTC
Jim Hooknose wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
You do realize that once the prices stop fluctuating and the market has adjusted to the new tax rate, that you will be making at least as much profit as you did before... with the option to make a much higher profit margin if you ever decide "you want" to venture into Low Sec.


The empire PI market will have to compete with untaxed null/low sec players who also get better yield from their planets. High sec PI's profit will tumble into nothing because they have effectively given null sec a monopoly on PI.

I expected PI to be a viable career in Eve. Not a sub-micro-career.


Indeed, that's one of my concerns. Since I'm in a WH these days, I expect I'll probably come out ahead in the end. But I spent a lot of time in deep losec doing intensive PI. While I won't make any predictions about how this turns out in losec, I do think it's pretty clear this doesn't do anything to make losec a better place to do PI.

You'll have to compete with hisec on tax rates, and with null/wh groups with no taxes.

If I could launch POCO for myself without leaving my present corp, I'd consider trying to start such a business. But there's a fundamental disconnect here.

There is no marketing channel -- unless you count spam cans at gates as a marketing channel.

Without communication, you can't get competition. Where's the competition on tax rates going to come from? The whole process of scouting for losec planets just got much harder. You have to find the resources, you have to get the tax information and estimate the impact of that, and then compare, over a wider range.

You want to make Eve a more interactive place? Let people bid on ad placements for contract goods and services and employment on the billboards and in stations. Make an in-game news channel, and let people by ads there. Don't make it free -- we don't want another Jita Local -- make it available via competitive bids.

You then have to consider the security aspects. Is this CO likely to vanish from beneath you after you make your investment? Are local pirates going to be looking at you not just as a target of opportunity, but as someone to systematically hunt down and destroy?

I still don't know what info POCOs give to their owners about the customers. CCP Omen hasn't seen fit to tell us. It wasn't available on SiSi to test in advance. But we have to consider the possibility of people using POCOs as bait to lure additional targets, kind of like extra-low prices on market goods. So all that has to be factored into the scouting process as well.

So more work to enter a profession where you're probably going to be at an economic disadvantage from the start?

At this point, I don't think I can continue to encourage people to venture into losec to do PI.
ZaBob
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#570 - 2011-12-02 02:05:41 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Sigh.

ArrowStep 1:
If you decide you wish to continue to do PI in Low Sec, simply keep doing what you are doing. The Interbus CO is still there. Wait for prices to stabilize. You will still make more money than you would on a similar number of planets in High Sec despite a slightly higher tax rate due to the larger volume available.

ArrowStep 2:
Keep this up until you are comfortable with the threat level to PI operations in your chosen area. If the Interbus CO gets blown up in short order, keep an eye on if it is replaced and if it is see if it's available for your use at a reasonable rate... if not trash your setup and move on. You have lost nothing but the infrastructure you are currently thinking about trashing anyway.

If your Interbus CO stays up (which is likely) you can then make an educated threat assessment concerning the option of putting up your own. Contrary to popular belief, shooting down structures is not a fun enterprise. In fact is is one of the highest rated items on the "things to try and avoid doing in EVE" list unless you have an eye on that corner of space yourself.

ArrowStep 3:
Keep track of your now improved income. Pay off your investment in the POCO and continue to earn higher profits than the majority of your competition.

ArrowStep 4:
If your POCO does get blown up, check your records and see if the venture paid for itself and produced a better profit than a High Sec operation for a comparable period of time.

If it did, and the people that blew up your POCO are not new residents to the area likely to do it again, put up another one.

If it did not, or if the people look like they are new residents, aggressive, and unwilling to work with you then search for a more profitable area.


This really isn't that hard a concept to grasp people.


That's a very nice, clear, well-written statement of the strategy -- if you elect to stay in losec doing PI. It's exactly what I would do; and adjusted for WH life, pretty much what I am going to do.

The concern that I and others have is that a lot of people will look at this and at some point in this process, decide not do PI in losec. They'll decide it's not in their interest.

Its the fallout from thousands of people making these decisions that is the concern. Is it actually possible to get a losec economy going? What will be the impact of removing a lot of the losec PI from the universal economy? What is the impact on new player development and retention?

But perhaps your note will encourage people to try, and perhaps that will help a bit.
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#571 - 2011-12-02 02:06:33 UTC
CCP Guard wrote:
I come bearing news about tax rates from CCP Omen and Team Pi:

---

The higher PI taxes are deliberate.

We have gotten a fair amount of petitions regarding high taxes for PI goods. We want to take a moment and assure you that it is deliberate and explain why.

The taxes that were introduced with the PI feature in Tyrannis did not change as the market value for PI goods went up significantly. This meant that until recently, PI industrialists have enjoyed profit margins of up about 99% without much risk.

With the Player Owned Customs Office feature we are changing how PI products come to the market and we are encouraging players to own and operate these offices. With the old tax levels it would be nearly unfeasible to operate a Customs Office and most of our goals with the feature were at risk of being missed.

By repairing the taxes to be... a) Based on market value and b) Player set, we now have a foundation for a much more interesting feature that we believe will create many opportunities in New Eden.

For more information please see the EVElopedia article for the Player Owned Customs Office: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOffice

Regards
CCP Omen on behalf of team Pi



CCP Guard mate you need to get CCP Phantom over here - we went through almost 90 pages of posting about the PCO feature... and I thought they had really done a great job of trying to compromise with the community on the change... however:

When 333 units of P2 via a Rocket Launch from the Command Center now costs 1350 ISK PER UNIT - somethings seriously wrong!

It's one thing to raise a tax/tariff on PI via the PCO or Interbus NPC-PCO to incentivise PCO use - but since when did I decide as a pilot that I want to charge myself 1350 ISK per unit to launch from my own Command Center?

What's next - we gonna start charging miners a benchmark rate on each unit of tritanium value for what their strip miners pull in???!!

I'm personally upset that I worked hard to constructively help shape the PCO feature only to get bent over a barrel and screwed this way...

X

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#572 - 2011-12-02 02:24:35 UTC
CCP Guard wrote:
I come bearing news about tax rates from CCP Omen and Team Pi:

---

The higher PI taxes are deliberate.

We have gotten a fair amount of petitions regarding high taxes for PI goods. We want to take a moment and assure you that it is deliberate and explain why.

The taxes that were introduced with the PI feature in Tyrannis did not change as the market value for PI goods went up significantly. This meant that until recently, PI industrialists have enjoyed profit margins of up about 99% without much risk.

With the Player Owned Customs Office feature we are changing how PI products come to the market and we are encouraging players to own and operate these offices. With the old tax levels it would be nearly unfeasible to operate a Customs Office and most of our goals with the feature were at risk of being missed.

By repairing the taxes to be... a) Based on market value and b) Player set, we now have a foundation for a much more interesting feature that we believe will create many opportunities in New Eden.

For more information please see the EVElopedia article for the Player Owned Customs Office: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOffice

Regards
CCP Omen on behalf of team Pi


sure the new tax rates may be coded to spec, but the spec is wrong. the spec was quite clearly not analyzed by ANYONE WHO KNOWS A DAMN THING ABOUT THE ECONOMY.

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Terminal Entry
New Fnord Industries
#573 - 2011-12-02 02:30:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Terminal Entry
Abramul wrote:
"All high security Customs Offices are transferred to CONCORD who will charge doubled import and export taxes."
http://www.eveonline.com/updates/patchnotes.asp

Mind changing this to reflect that it's closer to 100 times the old values for P1 and P2? I'd checked there and the two dev blogs before putting in a petition, and drew the conclusion it was bugged.

If anyone's wondering what the tax rates were changed from:
P0: 0.1 isk/unit -> 0.5 isk/unit
P1: 0.76 isk/unit -> 50 isk/unit
P2: 9 isk/unit -> 900 isk/unit
P3: 600 isk/unit -> 7000 isk/unit
P4: 50000 isk/unit -> 135000 isk/unit

+edit:
I would suggest that a change be made to make single-planet production easier: allow processors to be grouped so that you can change from one material to another and reroute faster.


I would have expected this sort of thing from the 'old' CCP but I thought the whole point of this expansion was to show that CCP were sorry for being so arrogant in the past. They said they were doubling PI taxes but some how failed to say that they were being worked out differently, and all they can say is 'working as intended - suck it up!'. This is definitely the 'OLD' CCP talking. Their subscriber numbers must be going up again if they think they can pull this sort of thing.
ZaBob
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#574 - 2011-12-02 02:37:00 UTC
Etherimos wrote:
Tell you what, you can charge whatever stupid tax rate you want for the Interbus etc CO's. Give me a ship I can train up to fly to the surface to bring the stuff off myself.

This means new skills, new ships AND will give those DUST weasels something else to shoot the heck out of if/when CCP actually gets their **** together and brings it to market!


I really like this suggestion. I think it fixes a lot of the issues for the PI customer, and adds a significant degree of richness.

One problem, though, is that it reduces the value of an investment in POCOs. I think for that part to work, we'd need to lower the price on those, or there won't be any POCOs. We'd like a balance where if the tax is too high, it's worth burning the fuel to fly in and out in your planetary hauler. Maybe there's also a time commitment involved.

You want to make CO owners think twice about charging very high taxes. Add in a marketing channel

Maybe make it easier to shoot down, too.
ZaBob
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#575 - 2011-12-02 02:58:34 UTC
Misstress Zain wrote:
Personally I see no big deal here. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together should be able to make isk out the yin yang with PI if your willing to put a little patiennce into it. As for my experience with the chages, in less that 24 hours me and my corp mate had all six interbus sites destroyed, new corp owned ones put up to cut taxes out all together in our WH.

As for the prices, well I am loving how they have jumped over 4k per unit on the stuff I produce over night. So please yes quit PI throw in the towell, and sit on the fourms and whine while I grow rich in EvE. Heaven forbid you do anything constructive like make your own centers in low sec, talk with similar corps about building and protecting some to use in low sec, NPC null, WH etc. I always forget this is EvE online instead of actually geting off your rear to work around a problem or go around it... lets just flood the forum with tears as usual. Ugh



Ah, excellent, the voice of experience. So far the only data point on taking these things down that I've seen is the one that I took down on SiSi.

How did you and your corpmates feel about the experience of shooting down 6 of these in 24 hours? How many pilots, using what equipment? Would you be so eager to do it again, if you got more planets? (My own problem is a bit bigger than yours).

But while your experience is of direct relevance to me, the situation is different in losec. I'd love to see people put together small groups that build and protect them in losec. But I don't think the economic and political situation will lead to that outcome.

You and I are going to do fine with this.
Helena Russell Makanen
DRRUSSEL
#576 - 2011-12-02 03:03:41 UTC
Ahrman Vanaheim wrote:
Perhaps fortunately my little lowsec PI empire was starting to bore me senseless to the point of giving it up - so the tax issue is almost a relief in that at least the short term I won't be doing any more PI.

Regardless, those complaining, probably don't understand that this is a mess that CCP can't back down from. They aren't going to give up their only, rather tenuous, link for EVE to DUST and possibly the millions invested in that game by reverting to the old system, despite enraging large numbers of High/Low/WH PI industrialists. DUST with no EVE link, though possible, would be pointless. We can only hope at this stage that DUST isn't a complete flop. I for one am interested in at least trying it.

FWIW, quick calculations on my lowsec PI showed that the new tax regime, and base prices (I only exported one batch from a planet prior to saying screw it) now sucks up 33% of T1 materials profit.
L4's generally seem to be more engaging, less effort and more profit than PI from 15 planets. Possibly more time consuming, however PI was becoming a misery much like keeping track of POS fuel timers used to be. My hoarded POS fuel materials on the other hand when prices are spiked nicely, will keep me in skill books and ships for years to come, and not running a POS will be nice for those 'downtime' periods we all have from time to time.

Good Luck CCP, I just hope this calculated gamble works and you don't lose more from this than you gain from DUST.


Once again CCP putting their 'other game(s)' before EVE, and so soon after promising not to. I am like most I have talked to about this, we have redone planets several times as CCP keeps 'improving' PI... and it is barely tolerable to maintain. The doubling of tax they stated right up to the second of release was bad enough. THIS? No more PI. Probably one less account also.

"If a miner needs to go to the bathroom, for instance, I ask that they dock up first, or at the very least ask the Supreme Protector for permission to go."  -  James 315 - aka - the miner bumper

Sabola Atar
Dark Wormhole Industry
Silent Infinity
#577 - 2011-12-02 03:07:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Sabola Atar
Ethanole wrote:
Still doesn't change the fact that the taxes are ridiculous, you should allow at least 200% tax rates for these to actually mean something, even a 15 or 20% tax rate for interbus CO's won't bother anyone, In fact I don't see anyone spending 1B on a system just to gain 5M isk per month.

Apart from that the changes are quite good, this is gonna make PI a lot more interesting and fun to manage :D



You obviously don't run PI. I'm getting charged 1 to 2 million for each transfer x 5 planets x 7 toons x twice a day. that's more than 52 million a day in taxes.
ZaBob
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#578 - 2011-12-02 03:13:02 UTC
Denidil wrote:
the spec was quite clearly not analyzed by ANYONE WHO KNOWS A DAMN THING ABOUT THE ECONOMY.


I was going to say that I look forward to reading about this in the next Quarterly Economic Newsletter -- and then it struck me, I haven[t seen one since the 2010Q4 one was released back in April.

And CCP Dr.EyjoG hasn't been heard from since August.

I'm a little concerned -- for their sake and ours -- that our developer friends may have been left to sink or swim on their own.
AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
#579 - 2011-12-02 03:24:14 UTC
ZaBob wrote:
And CCP Dr.EyjoG hasn't been heard from since August.


What do you mean? He's been working on his CNR fit.
ZaBob
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#580 - 2011-12-02 03:29:09 UTC
AkJon Ferguson wrote:
ZaBob wrote:
And CCP Dr.EyjoG hasn't been heard from since August.


What do you mean? He's been working on his CNR fit.


Well, send him back to his desk; he's overdue on 3 quarters of economic reports. This is no time to be testing fail fits.