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Player Owned Customs Offices: Math, Markets and Design Problems First post
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Jack Dant

The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre

Likes received: 541

#141 - 2011-12-01 15:22:50 UTC

Omega Flames wrote:

Jack Dant wrote:

I took a look around minmatar lowsec early. Most systems still have their full Interbus CO set. I didn't find any system where the Interbus COs had been destroyed and not replaced (didn't check planet count, but nothing stood out).

I found 5 systems with at least one POCOs. All were open to neutral use, most of them either at 10% tax or just below. Only one had a tax about highsec (15%). All of them seemed to belong to PVP corps.

Of course, it's just starting, but it looks promising.

highsec tax is 10%, low/null is 17% with interbus

Read again, I was talking about actual Player Owned COs in lowsec, not NPC ones.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644

Velicitia

XS Tech

Likes received: 2,802

#142 - 2011-12-01 15:24:39 UTC

pmchem wrote:

The PI alliance thread https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=39865&find=unread is the exact sort of player-driven, emergent, economic, non-highsec gameplay that the PI tax change helps create. Bravo.

and look a this, a goon not calling the empire dwellers pubbies for once ...

what else has CCP fixed in Crucible?

as for the underwhelming response, and the "hm, maybe W-space" responses ... that's neither here nor there. The fact is that SOMEONE is taking the initiative to do something rather than QQ.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Cygnet Lythanea

World Welfare Works Association

Likes received: 577

#143 - 2011-12-01 15:26:27 UTC | Edited by: Cygnet Lythanea

Jack Dant wrote:

That's more or less to be expected. PvP corps will see it as either bait or as source of income that they don't have to work for. I don't expect that to make up for the overall change in prices.

It's also nice to see CCP going around locking threads about this issue other then the one from a big alliance that the op is in favor of their changes. Damage control as usual, I see.

Velicitia wrote:

as for the underwhelming response, and the "hm, maybe W-space" responses ... that's neither here nor there. The fact is that SOMEONE is taking the initiative to do something rather than QQ.

Already did take initiative and am making a killing on it. But I want it to stop. This is going to damage the game in the long term. Just like the old moon goo bug or back when T2 was only produced by people lucky or rich enough to own a BPO. It favors those that already have staggering fortunes and freezes out new players. It drives the market in directions no sane person should want it to go.

Omega Flames

Caldari Provisions

Caldari State

Likes received: 103

#144 - 2011-12-01 15:48:51 UTC

Jack Dant wrote:

Omega Flames wrote:

Jack Dant wrote:

highsec tax is 10%, low/null is 17% with interbus

Read again, I was talking about actual Player Owned COs in lowsec, not NPC ones.

you read again. you said "Only one had a tax about highsec (15%)". Which is an incorrect statement as that is closer to the low/null sec tax not the highsec one.

Jack Dant

The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre

Likes received: 541

#145 - 2011-12-01 15:50:54 UTC

Omega Flames wrote:

you read again. you said "Only one had a tax about highsec (15%)". Which is an incorrect statement as that is closer to the low/null sec tax not the highsec one.

Oh, ok. I meant the one POCO above highsec tax was at 15%, not that highsec tax was 15%.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644

Dr Mercy

Imperial Academy

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 56

#146 - 2011-12-01 17:14:43 UTC

It totally makes sense that PVP corps will be the ones setting up POCOs in lowsec that give access to neutrals. They are the only guys equipped to protect against the destruction of the POCO.

Myself and a few guys in my corp looked into this ourselves, however we came to the conclusion that people don't come to lowsec for the PI wealth (the best planets are in WH with HS statics, and in nullsec) and they won't come to place factory planets here (the additional profit doesn't outway the risk. Not yet at least).

Most lowsec planets will be extracted for POS fuels. This doesn't really give an adequate income to cover the100 mil POCO costs.

Make isk with PI: http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?1207-What-to-do-PI-Processor-only-planets

mnybag1

Ministry of War

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 5

#147 - 2011-12-01 17:26:45 UTC

Even if you are the only one using the planet, the POCOs are worth it. If you have 12 planets over two accounts making 10 p2 per hour per planet, then you within 5 months the POCOs will have paid for themselves in the amount you save in taxes. Those claiming they will get blown up, if you are the only one using those planets, then chances are its a pretty dead system in general. Furthermore, the prices have already almost doubled so even PI in high sec is profitable again.

Things change. I think this new feature has a chance of being alot of fun and opening doors to new types of players throughout New Eden. I really hope CCP do not listen to everyone complaining because the feature is working exactly as intended. Once the market calms down from everyone's "THE SKY IS FALLING" mentality, things will probably be more expensive, but they should be because of the indicies.

It all makes sense. Stop whining over spilt isk.


Omega Flames Caldari Provisions Caldari State Likes received: 103	#148 - 2011-12-01 17:43:12 UTC \| Edited by: Omega Flames mnybag1 wrote: Furthermore, the prices have already almost doubled so even PI in high sec is profitable again. You need to visit your local eye doctor cause only P0 have gone up on average and only by 0.04 isk p/u. The rest have actually gone down on average in the past few days not up.


mnybag1 Ministry of War Amarr Empire Likes received: 5	#149 - 2011-12-01 18:00:51 UTC A week or two ago, before people really started worrying about the POS fuel blocks, Coolant was going for about 8-9 K a unit. Now it is upwards of 20k a unit on average.


Omega Flames Caldari Provisions Caldari State Likes received: 103	#150 - 2011-12-01 18:10:02 UTC 1 mnybag1 wrote: A week or two ago, before people really started worrying about the POS fuel blocks, Coolant was going for about 8-9 K a unit. Now it is upwards of 20k a unit on average. idk where you live but coolant sell price in jita is 12k this very second

Scrapyard Bob

EVE University

Ivy League

Likes received: 1,239

#151 - 2011-12-01 18:35:51 UTC

Note that some people are playing with the markets, buying up low-priced stuff and re-listing at a much higher price. You know, the same thing that happens every time something changes in EVE.

Coolant: about 12k as of a few hours ago
http://eve-marketdata.com/price_check.php?step=Show&type_id=9832&region_id=10000002&type=sell

Oxygen:
http://eve-marketdata.com/price_check.php?step=Show&type_id=3683&region_id=10000002&type=sell
This is being manipulated in multiple trade hubs. Which is why there are only 3 sell orders in Jita.

Mech Parts: 14k (bit high at the moment)
http://eve-marketdata.com/price_check.php?step=Show&type_id=3689&region_id=10000002&type=sell

Enriched Uranium: 15k (also a bit high at the moment)
http://eve-marketdata.com/price_check.php?step=Show&type_id=44&region_id=10000002&type=sell

Those P2s selling at 14-15k? Those are about 20-30% profit margins, even if you bought the inputs. (Naturally, you'll want to verify your math.)

Remember - PI is still a very low-skill required trade with very low barrier of entry. It only takes 3-4 days to train up for CCU4, IPC4 and Planetology 3. Spend about 6.5M ISK on setting up a PI harvest colony, which then outputs anywhere from 2400-3600 units of P1 per day (in hi-sec, 24h cycles, for most things). Even with the 50 ISK/u tariff in hi-sec, you can easily make a decent amount of ISK/day for a new player.

400 ISK/u market = 350 ISK/u net after paying export tax = 3000 units/day @ 350 = 1.05M ISK/day in profit
500 ISK/u market = 1.35M/day
600 ISK/u market = 1.65M/day

Last summer, people were willing to do hi-sec PI harvest planets that were only making 500k-750k per day. Now those same harvest planets are making 2x that.

Omega Flames

Caldari Provisions

Caldari State

Likes received: 103

#152 - 2011-12-01 18:50:18 UTC

Ya but last summer we knew the prices would be going up as people got tired of clicking but even then the taxes were not eating into our profits like they are now. I know the prices are going to go up again but this time it's not cause of a player driven economy it's cause of a npc driven change. Even with the POCO's being added it's not actually helping cause they are created using PI products so as PI increases in price the cost of installing (and value of killmail) goes up making them even better of a target for the time to kill. What happens if PI products double in price? Well that means POCO's double in value too, which means a small pos hp item (except it can only be defended by active players coming to it's rescue and not by auto-firing guns of any sort) will be able to be killed for about a 250mil isk of a km.

Amon Sono

Gnome Industries

Likes received: 2

#153 - 2011-12-01 19:46:55 UTC

mnybag1 wrote:

I respectivly disagree, the changes will effectively squeeze out small and independent players This is shutting doors rather then opening them. I think the changes will make null and wh PI more interesting but makes low and high sec PI less attractive.

RubyPorto

RubysRhymes

Likes received: 5,663

#154 - 2011-12-01 20:14:27 UTC

Amon Sono wrote:

mnybag1 wrote:

So it's boosting the income of people who're willing to work together at the expense of the income of those who are not? Working as intended.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Amon Sono

Gnome Industries

Likes received: 2

#155 - 2011-12-01 21:49:44 UTC

RubyPorto wrote:

Amon Sono wrote:

mnybag1 wrote:

So it's boosting the income of people who're willing to work together at the expense of the income of those who are not? Working as intended.

If your implying that only large corps work together I think your way off base. Nor do I think its beneficial to the game to isolate members of your community from features of the game. The devs have implied that one of the reasons for this is to entice more players out of high sec. What will happen is the exact opposite becuase small corps and individual players simply can't compete

Cygnet Lythanea

World Welfare Works Association

Likes received: 577

#156 - 2011-12-01 22:05:20 UTC

RubyPorto wrote:

So it's boosting the income of people who're willing to work together at the expense of the income of those who are not? Working as intended.

Not really. The stated goal of it was to be accessible to all players and encourage people to go to low sec. The actual result is that PI in lowsec declines and fewer people go there.

This is bad for pvp: fewer targets.

This is bad for industry: higher prices for basic commodities.

This is bad for new players: increased cost of entry.

The only people this is good for is big alliances, who get to undercut everyone else's prices and still turn a profit.

Effectively, it creates yet another monopoly for alliances and their pets. Unless you're willing to take a loss on the POCO and have 0% tarriff AND are either damn lucky or have some SERIOUS firepower, you will not be able to match alliance sale prices in the open market.


Cygnet Lythanea World Welfare Works Association Likes received: 577	#157 - 2011-12-01 22:08:08 UTC Forum goofed double post.

pmchem

Brutor Tribe

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 708

#158 - 2011-12-02 00:39:01 UTC | Edited by: pmchem

Velicitia wrote:

pmchem wrote:

Well, look at my posts where I lay out the case for higher PI reference tax values, the effect Interbus COs would have on POCO desirability, or basically any post of mine where I'm not trolling some hysterical whining pubbie like Cygnet L (thanks for continuing to bump my thread btw). I try to be logical, sincere, and thoughtful when seriously discussing game design. I get my trolling in elsewhere.

https://twitter.com/pmchem/ || http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/community-spotlight-garpa/ || Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Cygnet Lythanea

World Welfare Works Association

Likes received: 577

#159 - 2011-12-02 02:21:21 UTC

pmchem wrote:

pmchem, you'll forgive if I take your posts as light fantasy rather then fact. The fact that your alliance has come out hard for this and seems to be the major party interested in it suggests that you've already been tipped off to how extreme the tax on PI would be and have sunk a sizable amount of isk into the gamble that it would pass unnoticed.

And, you know, I seem to recall, once upon a time, a very similar statement from another alliance...hmm... what was it... OH YES....

'I'm not trolling some hysterical whining by goons about our alleged relationship with T20.'

Oh, and before you brandish 'pubbie' at me, I seem to recall blowing by your alliances pathetic effort at a bubble bath a few weeks ago on a hot little profitable run in nullsec.

So, please, by all means, keep talking ****.

It's funny from an alliance that couldn't catch a 'pubbie' in their own space.

GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 7,457
Weaselior GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation Likes received: 7,457	#160 - 2011-12-02 04:49:51 UTC 3 we're all too rich from guidance systems to care buddy Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.