These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page123Next page
 

Unreasonably low cruiser DPS?

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Vinyl 41
AdVictis
#21 - 2014-04-19 14:30:46 UTC
when using rlml i sugest you observe and learn to count volleys so you save your missles because your lauchers have horribly long reload
Drew Lorentz
TBG Holdings
#22 - 2014-04-19 17:00:47 UTC
Dr Cedric wrote:


I'm not trying to be an A-Hole here, but why are you worried about your max shield regen when you have an active tank? My mission fits regularly get to or below the 33% mark... then I turn my repper on and fix it all. Not to mention it takes half the mission to take enough damage to even get it there.

Perma-run tanks are nice to have, but not a necessity... and certainly shouldn't be one for Level 2 missions. If you ever plan to move up to 3's and 4's, you need to learn about Hardeners, capacitor boosters and a DPS-Tank. If you want to derp around w/ lvl 2's and a mediocre fit, then go ahead.

In the meantime, just give my idea a try. I'd bet you 10M isk that you'll be pleased :)
[/quote]

I worried about my max recharge rate because even with an actibe tank, your passive regen still contributes. If an enemy gets past that point, it means they can deal more damage than my tank can handle. Of course if I had been smarter with my targets, it never would've happened. For example, in a swarm of frigates and destroyers, I focused my firepower on an interceptor, which had the hardest tank to break. It wasn't doing much damage, just slowing me down. If I had destroyed more of the destroyers first, which I could easily take down with 2-3 volleys (less than most T1 frigates take!) and were dealing the the most damage, I never would've had a problem. As malcanis said: "Dead rats deal no DPS"
Drew Lorentz
TBG Holdings
#23 - 2014-04-19 17:15:24 UTC
Malcanis wrote:


RLMLs are great for level 2 missions.

With respect to your tank, NPCs do predictable damage types; eg Guristas do ~80% kinetic and ~20% thermal DPS. So dropping one of your boost amps for a T1 Kinetic shield hardener would increase your passive tank by 40% when you're fighting Guristas rats. Other pirate types have their own damage profiles, but most of them have a main damage type and a secondary one. See here for lots and lots of specific info: http://eve-survival.org/wikka.php?wakka=HomePage

Additionally, always remember that Dead Rats Do No DPS. Fitting a single T2 ballistic control unit would increase your DPS by over 20%. This would allow you to kill the rats more quickly, which means that you can reduce the incoming DPS more quickly, which means that you do not need as much tank and also has the happy side effect of increasing your income.

For L2s, your Caracal should Ideally be fit something like this (use meta modules where you can't use T2):

Highs: 5x RLML II Launchers
Meds: 10MN AB II, Large Shield Extender II, Adaptive Invulnerability Field II, and then a rat-specific hardner (Kinetic for Guristas, EM for Sansha, Thermal for Serpentis, etc etc)
Lows: 3x Ballistic Control System IIs, Damage Control II
Rigs: 3x Rigors[/quote]

Good advice but are 3 rigors, or any rigors for that matter, really necessary for RLMLs?
Drew Lorentz
TBG Holdings
#24 - 2014-04-19 17:20:43 UTC
Sorry, a glitch messed up the quotes a bit.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#25 - 2014-04-19 18:58:48 UTC
even with max skills using 1 rigor on rlml still helps applying damage to non-ab frigates, and given that the OP has low SP it'll be very useful.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#26 - 2014-04-19 19:26:02 UTC
Drew Lorentz wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


RLMLs are great for level 2 missions.

With respect to your tank, NPCs do predictable damage types; eg Guristas do ~80% kinetic and ~20% thermal DPS. So dropping one of your boost amps for a T1 Kinetic shield hardener would increase your passive tank by 40% when you're fighting Guristas rats. Other pirate types have their own damage profiles, but most of them have a main damage type and a secondary one. See here for lots and lots of specific info: http://eve-survival.org/wikka.php?wakka=HomePage

Additionally, always remember that Dead Rats Do No DPS. Fitting a single T2 ballistic control unit would increase your DPS by over 20%. This would allow you to kill the rats more quickly, which means that you can reduce the incoming DPS more quickly, which means that you do not need as much tank and also has the happy side effect of increasing your income.

For L2s, your Caracal should Ideally be fit something like this (use meta modules where you can't use T2):

Highs: 5x RLML II Launchers
Meds: 10MN AB II, Large Shield Extender II, Adaptive Invulnerability Field II, and then a rat-specific hardner (Kinetic for Guristas, EM for Sansha, Thermal for Serpentis, etc etc)
Lows: 3x Ballistic Control System IIs, Damage Control II
Rigs: 3x Rigors


Good advice but are 3 rigors, or any rigors for that matter, really necessary for RLMLs?[/quote]

Not really all that much, but they'll be useful when you upgrade your caracal to HMLs.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Mike Adoulin
Happys Happy Hamster Hunting Club
#27 - 2014-04-20 13:21:42 UTC
Missiles aren't about DPS, they are about the alpha strike. In this they are similar to artillery.

So your DPS in a missile/arty boat is going to be lower compared to most other weapons, but you are going to hit far harder when you do shoot.

And that can be important.

Everything in EVE is a trap.

And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)

You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.

Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.
Drew Lorentz
TBG Holdings
#28 - 2014-04-20 18:05:19 UTC
Alright, here is a preliminary RLML fit based on what I've learned. Tell me what u think
Dps: 177 (drone: 10) Volley: 662 EHP: 16.4K

Prototype 'Arbalest' Rapid Light Missile Launcher
Prototype 'Arbalest' Rapid Light Missile Launcher
Prototype 'Arbalest' Rapid Light Missile Launcher
Prototype 'Arbalest' Rapid Light Missile Launcher
Prototype 'Arbalest' Rapid Light Missile Launcher

Limited Adaptive Invulnerability field 1
Experimental 10MN Afterburner 1
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
M51 Iterative Shield Regenerator
Limited Kinetic Deflection Field 1

F85 Peripheral Damage System 1
Cross-linked Bolt Array 1
Cross-linked Bolt Array 1
Cross-linked Bolt Array 1

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit 1
Medium Warhead Calefaction Catalyst 1
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst 1
Drew Lorentz
TBG Holdings
#29 - 2014-04-20 18:09:09 UTC
The drone dps is included in the overall dps
(Weapons have 167, Drones have 10, Overall is 177
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#30 - 2014-04-20 18:14:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcanis
Yeah for what you're doing (L2s), that should be fine.

Train Weapon Upgrades IV as an early priority so that you can use T2 BCS. You only need Weapon Upgrades 4, so it shouldn't take you very long)

Then train up to T2 launchers. Simply getting Light Missiles to V will give you an intrinsic damage boost, and then you get the RoF boost from the weapon specialisation skill.

Then train for T2 hardeners (this is also a very quick train)

Then start the train towards T2 HMLs

Once you've done that, you should be able to handle L3s, which will be a big step up in ISK/hr, although you may need to switch to an active tank fit.

Longer term, a Cerb with T2 launchers can complete L4s if you fly it right, although it's not going to give you the fastest completion time.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Stein Backstabber
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2014-04-20 18:22:53 UTC
I'd take a drake into L3's if you're lower on skill points before a caracal. Skills all overlap (minus BC skill, but whatever) and it's simply far harder to lose that thing.
Joker Dronemaster
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2014-04-22 03:59:06 UTC
Drew Lorentz wrote:
...........Also, I used to be very interested in using damage reduction modules, but I always find that they aren't predictable, and often lack in strength........



For level 2s this mentality works, but you'll find it won't hold against level 4s. The reason damage reduction mods aren't working for you is that different NPCs do different damage types. So no that EM hardener does not help on a Guristas/Serpentis mission, but it will help against Blood Raiders/Sansha Do a Google search and a little homework.

As for lacking strength..............

Bring up excel and graph this.

1/(1-"Ship Resist")

That formula will give you the resistance multiplier, which is effectively how much DPS 1 point of regeneration will negate at that resistance.

So for example a 50% resist would be 1/(1-.5) = 2, 60% would be 2.5, 70 is 3.33, 80% is 5.

Compare that to the 36% or 1.36 multiplier added by a T2 boost amp.
Luwc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#33 - 2014-04-22 07:15:40 UTC
Tajic Kaundur wrote:
Caracals, and really any missile ship, get lower than average DPS on paper.
.


Torpraven disapproves.
HAM Drake disapproves.
Cerberus disapproves.
Tengu disapproves.
Rocket Hawk disapproves.

http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#34 - 2014-04-22 10:56:45 UTC
Joker Dronemaster wrote:
Drew Lorentz wrote:
...........Also, I used to be very interested in using damage reduction modules, but I always find that they aren't predictable, and often lack in strength........



For level 2s this mentality works, but you'll find it won't hold against level 4s. The reason damage reduction mods aren't working for you is that different NPCs do different damage types. So no that EM hardener does not help on a Guristas/Serpentis mission, but it will help against Blood Raiders/Sansha Do a Google search and a little homework.

As for lacking strength..............

Bring up excel and graph this.

1/(1-"Ship Resist")

That formula will give you the resistance multiplier, which is effectively how much DPS 1 point of regeneration will negate at that resistance.

So for example a 50% resist would be 1/(1-.5) = 2, 60% would be 2.5, 70 is 3.33, 80% is 5.

Compare that to the 36% or 1.36 multiplier added by a T2 boost amp.


Furthermore, a resist mod will increase your EHP buffer, which an amp won't.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#35 - 2014-04-22 11:53:03 UTC
Patri Andari wrote:
Tajic Kaundur wrote:
Caracals, and really any missile ship, get lower than average DPS on paper.

But keep in mind missiles don't miss. Yes, you can outrange missiles, or just flat out kite missiles if you're fast enough- but you can't miss with them the way a turret can.

So while you might see less DPS than desired on the fitting page, you're actually probably getting about the same DPS as a turret ship.


LOL


He's right. There was a reason a 300dps HML Drake got a Damage nerf. Hit quality makes a large difference in how much damage you do

"Ermagherd, 600DPS in mah gunboat"

Yea... with 3K optimal. That 600 is worthless at NORMAL combat ranges, look at your gun DPS and half it - that's the best rule of thumb to live by - it's why TE's got nerfed, they where better at increasing effective damage at combat ranges that Damage Mods where, combined with a nice tracking bonus to mitigate more speed on a target.

It's also why Amarr laser boats are terrifying - they operate in optimal and not falloff.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#36 - 2014-04-22 11:57:32 UTC
Luwc wrote:
Tajic Kaundur wrote:
Caracals, and really any missile ship, get lower than average DPS on paper.
.


Torpraven disapproves.
HAM Drake disapproves.
Cerberus disapproves.
Tengu disapproves.
Rocket Hawk disapproves.



Torps are insanely high damage but very difficult to apply the damage compared to cruise. The opposite is true for HAM's versus Heavies (Ham's apply damage better).
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#37 - 2014-04-22 12:00:05 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:
Patri Andari wrote:
Tajic Kaundur wrote:
Caracals, and really any missile ship, get lower than average DPS on paper.

But keep in mind missiles don't miss. Yes, you can outrange missiles, or just flat out kite missiles if you're fast enough- but you can't miss with them the way a turret can.

So while you might see less DPS than desired on the fitting page, you're actually probably getting about the same DPS as a turret ship.


LOL


He's right. There was a reason a 300dps HML Drake got a Damage nerf. Hit quality makes a large difference in how much damage you do

"Ermagherd, 600DPS in mah gunboat"

Yea... with 3K optimal. That 600 is worthless at NORMAL combat ranges, look at your gun DPS and half it - that's the best rule of thumb to live by - it's why TE's got nerfed, they where better at increasing effective damage at combat ranges that Damage Mods where, combined with a nice tracking bonus to mitigate more speed on a target.

It's also why Amarr laser boats are terrifying - they operate in optimal and not falloff.



You know that the falloff line is actually a curve and at 50% falloff it's still doing 80% DPS, right? The guns do half DPS at FULL falloff.

TEs were nerfed because they gave too much falloff bonuses and projectiles were murdering things.
Nalelmir Ahashion
Industrial Management and Engineering
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#38 - 2014-04-22 22:19:12 UTC
With missiles and on mission consider this:
Missiles are only weapon system which you can choose 1 type of select-able damage type.
Rate take most from EM? check, May explosive? check.
So in practice it balanced out.
Drew Lorentz
TBG Holdings
#39 - 2014-04-23 02:38:16 UTC
Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:
With missiles and on mission consider this:
Missiles are only weapon system which you can choose 1 type of select-able damage type.
Rate take most from EM? check, May explosive? check.
So in practice it balanced out.


I use kinetic because: a) many caldari ships have bonuses to kinetic and b) they deal the most balanced damage (neither shields nor armor have too high of a resistance to kinetic)

Sorry I haven't responded to your comments for a while, they have been very helpful. I've been trying to earn back my loses after I lost my cruiser to a jackass gatecamper who for whatever reason wasn't being targeted by concord or the gate's turrets. I wasn't able to fight back because in an effort to conserve Isk, I hadn't bought any missiles because the local price had been to high. I was on my way to get the last piece of my fit, when I accidentally uncloaked after jumping into a system. He was in a T2 attack frigate and before I could warp out, he jammed me, webbed me, and eventually destroyed me
Drew Lorentz
TBG Holdings
#40 - 2014-04-23 02:44:29 UTC
But by using my alt, I just made enough money to buy a new one! (My alt is a mining character mostly run by my friend. It can pull about 800K in 20 min.)
Previous page123Next page