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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Battleships

First post First post First post
Author
Stjaerna Ramundson
#961 - 2014-04-20 03:39:08 UTC
Question:

Do you (CCP) thought about the amount of drones in a pvp fight? ;D (Hello assist overwork)

50 Drones in old variant = basic 450 dps / 5 * 50 = 4500 damage with Garde II without mods.

50 Drones in new variant = basic 420 dps / 2 * 50 = 10518 damage with Garde II without mods.

That is a damage push of 233,75%.

First you worked to reduce the amount of assist and now (Summer) it will be again possible to ..... I her the flame war incoming in 3 2 1 ...
Would like to know that this change will change another part of eve was also in your mind.
  1. Eigenen Beitrag mit sachliche Argumentationen, Problemschilderung, Erklärung, Lösungsansätzen formulieren.
  2. Beitrag enthält eine eigene Meinung im Fazit zum Thema.
  3. Negative Äußerungen, Drohungen usw. gegenüber Nutzern haben in der Meinung nichts zu suchen.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#962 - 2014-04-20 03:55:02 UTC
Stjaerna Ramundson wrote:
Question:

Do you (CCP) thought about the amount of drones in a pvp fight? ;D (Hello assist overwork)

50 Drones in old variant = basic 450 dps / 5 * 50 = 4500 damage with Garde II without mods.

50 Drones in new variant = basic 420 dps / 2 * 50 = 10518 damage with Garde II without mods.

That is a damage push of 233,75%.

First you worked to reduce the amount of assist and now (Summer) it will be again possible to ..... I her the flame war incoming in 3 2 1 ...
Would like to know that this change will change another part of eve was also in your mind.


Faction battleship fleets don't work.
Stjaerna Ramundson
#963 - 2014-04-20 04:01:26 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


Faction battleship fleets don't work.


You can not assist drones from a faction BS to another player? o.O
  1. Eigenen Beitrag mit sachliche Argumentationen, Problemschilderung, Erklärung, Lösungsansätzen formulieren.
  2. Beitrag enthält eine eigene Meinung im Fazit zum Thema.
  3. Negative Äußerungen, Drohungen usw. gegenüber Nutzern haben in der Meinung nichts zu suchen.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#964 - 2014-04-20 04:08:39 UTC
Stjaerna Ramundson wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


Faction battleship fleets don't work.


You can not assist drones from a faction BS to another player? o.O


You cannot replace losses effectively and the market is far too easily manipulated.
Ahernar
Perkone
Caldari State
#965 - 2014-04-20 04:08:42 UTC
Read the fking thread again , the rattlers will be stationary and this means dread food .Expensive dread food .

Let's try to put the cart on track again .
I'm curious why from so many "experts" here nobody remembered the Dominix NAVY , how is fitted and why . That is the Rattler simulator , costs 500mil , have the same dmg/range dillema (and plenty of not paper dps too , up to 1200 at 50km ). That thing also has instant damage ,bonused lights and 400mc of dronebay . Can CCP exchange the stats :) ? Pretty please ?

http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/65493-Dominix-Navy-Issue-Navy-Domi-MJD-kiter-Mark-I.html

The paper dps issue is real you will need at least -3mid ( 1 tp , 2 omnis) leaving you with a 2 slot tank , 1MJD and 1AB .

I think the rattler will be a good choice for solo chars but will remain the meh ship i found myself into at the start of my eve journey . I used in 2010 one to break the jamming of the first gurista station sanctum spawn then go back in the station to bring a vanilla raven which worked better with my skills .
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#966 - 2014-04-20 04:51:55 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Give it up, people. Epicurius is not going to post anything you can actually make any use of.

Sgt Ocker wrote:
Ok.. Well, the current Snake fills a role for many players and has served those who like it (as a drone boat) well.
It has essentially had its ability to fill many of its current roles severely reduced by limiting drone versatility.

So while the Snake has received a nice buff it has completely changed the way the ship can be played.

Your a missile platform fan - Snake will serve you well, you will still have support drones.
If you prefer the drone platform, you need to get the balance just right, you won't have the versatility you do now.


All these complaints about "drone versatility" seem to center around the bay being reduced. So let me ask you a question, Mr. Sgt. Ocker: What precisely did you used to carry in your drone bay before? Be specific.

No, really. I want to know exactly what you carry in your RS' bay right now on TQ.

Currently it has - 1 X flight Bouncer ll - 1 X flight garde ll - 1 X flight Valkyrie ll -1 X flight Hobgoblin ll - 2 X flight Warrior ll - 1 X flight ECM 300. All of which receive current bonuses.
The Valkyrie ll's and Hobgoblin ll's I could probably do with out, they see little use.
Although losing the damage bonus to lights, they may become a better option than the Warriors, as the warriors just may not be able to apply the damage to kill the frigates in some of the anoms.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#967 - 2014-04-20 05:18:26 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Perhaps you guys misunderstood my statement.

Sgt Ocker said: "It has completely changed the way the ship can be played"

How? You lost bonused light and medium drones. Is there anyone here who buys a faction battleship to use light drones? *crickets*

So can anyone please tell me how using unbonused light drones to scrape frigate rats off of you (like damn near every other battleship) "completely changes the way the ship can be played"?

It can fit 100m3 worth of heavy/sentry drones, and 3 full flights of light sized drones, so I know the dronebay loss can't be it.

So seriously, can someone tell me what the big freaking deal is?

So what your saying is - For the new Snake when fit as a drone boat, it is ok to have nearly half of its available "drone bay" on a "drone boat" filled with "un - bonused" drones.

Yeah that'll work just fine - probably only in EFT though. Practical application, it will simply fail miserably.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#968 - 2014-04-20 06:33:46 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Sgt Ocker wrote:

So what your saying is - For the new Snake when fit as a drone boat, it is ok to have nearly half of its available "drone bay" on a "drone boat" filled with "un - bonused" drones.

Yeah that'll work just fine - probably only in EFT though. Practical application, it will simply fail miserably.


You only need half the drones you had before. Heavy drones will still kill frigates and sentries will snipe them away easily enough. You can still have two flights of sentries and three flights of lights.
Ahernar
Perkone
Caldari State
#969 - 2014-04-20 07:54:32 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
. Heavy drones will still kill frigates and sentries will snipe them away easily enough.


I really wonder now what is the reason for the existence of the light drones...
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#970 - 2014-04-20 08:09:10 UTC
Ahernar wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
. Heavy drones will still kill frigates and sentries will snipe them away easily enough.


I really wonder now what is the reason for the existence of the light drones...


They kill them better than heaviesBlink

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#971 - 2014-04-20 08:45:22 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:

So what your saying is - For the new Snake when fit as a drone boat, it is ok to have nearly half of its available "drone bay" on a "drone boat" filled with "un - bonused" drones.


If the tradeoff is that it gets a full set of launchers on top of that?

You betcha.

Quote:

Yeah that'll work just fine - probably only in EFT though. Practical application, it will simply fail miserably.


How on earth can you be speculating on the "practical application" of something that is not available for testing with any more accuracy than I?

Especially when you're basically trying to tell me that 2 super bonused drones is somehow worse than 5 regular bonused drones... for some reason.

What would that reason be, anyway?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Stein Backstabber
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#972 - 2014-04-20 09:22:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Stein Backstabber
You know, this is a bit like folks complaining if the didnt let my Mach fit small guns, but buffed the crap out the big ones XoD
KaDa en Bauldry
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#973 - 2014-04-20 09:34:27 UTC  |  Edited by: KaDa en Bauldry
Stein Backstabber wrote:
You know, this would is a bit like folks complaining if the didnt let my Mach fit small guns, but buffed the crap out the big ones XoD

Because fitting the wrong sized guns and getting the ones you should use 100% of the time is the same as releasing smaller drones, which all battleships had to do before the LMJD.
It's pretty much the reason why they all had at least something like 50/75 bandwidth and bay.

What's next?
If a ship has 125mbps bandwidth, it HAS TO use all of it, or else the drones won't activate?

How about making any non-droneboat have a drone bay of no larger than 25m3.
In fact, let's just remove them!
Drone boats should be the only ones using drones, or else it's like a gunship using missiles, CCP is finally burying the split hardpoints.

...
...
Giving both sides of a discussion is nice and all, but let's not go full silly here.
If they would rebalance drones and drone ships around such a concept, that would be quite different.

Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.

Stein Backstabber
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#974 - 2014-04-20 09:47:01 UTC
Well, it really is a bit silly.

They're "reduced" to using (3DDA's) "normal" light drones, like all other battleships. At a trade off giving it WAY more missile damage, a pair of far harder to kill uberdrones.

It's not like they're hard done by and if the bonused lights made or broke the boat, you're probably doing it wrong.
KaDa en Bauldry
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#975 - 2014-04-20 09:53:28 UTC  |  Edited by: KaDa en Bauldry
Stein Backstabber wrote:
Well, it really is a bit silly.

I countered silly with silly on purpose.
Stein Backstabber wrote:
It's not like they're hard done by and if the bonused lights made or broke the boat, you're probably doing it wrong.

If you read back, on the rattlesnake, I don't have (much) trouble accepting the change.
But your example was too much for me.

Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.

Cassandra Aurilien
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#976 - 2014-04-20 10:05:52 UTC
KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
Stein Backstabber wrote:
Well, it really is a bit silly.

I countered silly with silly on purpose.
Stein Backstabber wrote:
It's not like they're hard done by and if the bonused lights made or broke the boat, you're probably doing it wrong.

If you read back, on the rattlesnake, I don't have (much) trouble accepting the change.
But your example was too much for me.



Drone boats have always been unique, as they are the only weapon system receives bonuses across all weapon sizes. (You can fit small guns on a Mach, they just don't get a bonus, not that you'd want to.)

Since drone boats have sufficient bay space to fit several flights of drones, that flexibility has always been taken for granted. In balance, of course, your drones are targetable, they have travel time, etc.

What's interesting is that on this new Rattler, it's the weapon system which received a bonus which operates independent of the weapon size.

I'd like to see how this all fits together once it's out on the test server. I think it will be balanced.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#977 - 2014-04-20 10:08:39 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
I like the versatility and general usefulness that drones provide, but I hate - freaking hate - the micromanagement. That's probably why all my ships feature drones as a distant second.

Yeah, I can't echo these sentiments enough.



Yeah, an absolute pain. Frankly the fact the drone mechanic has been so degraded and the emphasis on missiles is now a blessing, because otherwise your drone micromanagement has now increased even more!
Recall sentries, launch lights, recall recall launch recall recall pop pop recall pop pop pop pop --- aw hell LMJ drive, burn towards rats, 3 minutes of burning towards them later later launch and all again.Evil


* sarcasm follows*

Wow such an improvement to game play,

How could anyone who uses drones not be so impressed.

So embrace your new missile overlords, just forget fracking drones.


Way to go to get people to embrace the new superdrone concept. Shocked

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#978 - 2014-04-20 10:12:24 UTC
epicurus, how is that any different than if you had 5 regular bonused drones? Except these new ones don't die anywhere close to as quickly.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Stein Backstabber
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#979 - 2014-04-20 10:14:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Stein Backstabber
You're right, the drone bonus not trickling down is a change, but keep in mind that now the missile bonus cascades down. You could, should you desire, use bonused RLML if you had intel or specific conerns about small ships. Whilst STILL putting out 750+ sentry DPS.


Edit: If range is such a big deal, just keep 4 launchers and enjoy 50% more missile DPS and more robust sentries.

I genuinely don't get it, not without creating Das Uberboat™

Edit2: The more I think about it, the more it seems overtweaked.

Edit3: Imagine being the tackle that jumps a snake with RLML...finding itself dual webbed and taking pain almost as if it'd jumped a RLML cerberus. Except it's a battleship with a monster tank and the ability to ruin a big ships day as well. Ouch.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#980 - 2014-04-20 11:33:32 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
epicurus, how is that any different than if you had 5 regular bonused drones? Except these new ones don't die anywhere close to as quickly.



Well it is the morning, so i have a little patience left, probably after a couple of times repeating myself and banging my head against the wall I might give up for today so here goes.

Please pay attention. And try to read to the end before you jump on the most inconsequential part before leaping to completely wrong conclusions as to what is being said Roll

The issue is that for both the Gila and the Rattlesnake in different ways, the drone weapon system is exactly that, an entire system with many checks and balances, plusses and minuses.-It has serious issues, and at some point will need a major rework.- but that is an aside.

Range of control and the fact that drones come in different sizes and abilities, and that these can be switched according to threat, are the pillars that support the system as a weapons platform.

The problem is the 2 main pillars have been disregarded whilst focusing on the new superdrone concept.
The superdrone concept has great potential to be a great addition to the game. But only if the smaller drones beneath the Superdrones are taken into account in the whole interplay of the system. And the battle-space these drones operate in and the control range applicable relates to the drones abilities.

But if you completely remove functionality and abilities of core components of the whole system, the balance is broken, and it will be impossible to know just how good they are,as one will be making continual comparisons with the other missing and changed elements.how can one compare the Gila and its use of wonderful bonused superdrones if you are struggling with losing 3.5 effective light drones and fighting to somehow stay alive.
When you change a core variable, you change only one at a time, or the data is meaningless.

There is also the issue that micromanagement of the lesser drones in the system is significantly more hands on, the unbonused drones (and fewer in the gila) are fragile and weaker, they need more effort to keep alive and are exposed to damage for longer as they do damage less quickly.
If it is necessary to use the MJD for range control then the MJD now takes one well out of drone control range adding to drone micromanagement. All of these issues are annoying an unpleasant rather than fatal, but is making the game more annoying a positive improvement?
This is over and above the more direct impacts that have been detailed en mass over dozens of pages, i know there is a lot to read but that is better than me typing pages for you now. Try to read, I will not do ALL the work for you!

So in short the rattlesnake has become a missile boat. With supporting drones. This is not the dual weapon system ship that we are used to. Whilst one can certainly adapt, the method of making the drones unpleasant to use, is a very poor way to introduce superdrones.

The Gila is severely hampered by the neglect of the entire drone weapon system, there are only 2 possible fits. T2 heavy missiles with precision missiles (if you have those skills) or rapid lights.

So the question is is it a good idea to rebalance a ship by neglecting the core concept of a weapons system being a system by ripping it out and just replacing part with a different mechanic. Or is it better to consider the whole system and doing it properly and not pissing off existing users and making it a pain for new ones?

I do not believe that is either deliberate or intended. The forums are here to give the Devs feedback, they are under considerable pressure to deliver changes, to a tight timescale, we NEED to point out issues when they are seen, to help them do their job for the BENEFIT OF ALL,

Aside from that the resolutions are remarkably simple.

Gila 100% bonus to damage and hitpoints for light drones. To keep approximately the same number of effective drones
Rattlesnake 50% bonus to damage and hitpoints for light and medium drones, keeps same number of effective drones
Rattlesnake either 25km to drone control range to keep same effective drone control range to prevent the new dead area, where drone damage will not be applied. Or drop the new launcher and add to the missile damage bonus,to keep it the same as originally suggested.

The idea is that the lesser drones are a valid part of the weapons system and deserve just as much attention if balance is to achieved, and that the whole battlespace needs to be considered in order not to create accidental deadspots that add nothing but annoyance to the game.

(If CCP Rise wanted to buff the ship some more, this could be also achieved by an additional high slot, his choice, naturally would effect the ability to fit other things too.) The other solutions would be just as effective without buffing anything.


NOTE:- NOWHERE IN THIS POST IS A REQUEST FOR A BUFF. (In capitals for the benefit of those who find it hard to read.)

The forum thread is so long because as in the case where one sees a nail on the floor, one can either pick it up and solve the problem, or argue incessantly for hours as to why it is not a problem and why it is too much effort to pick it up.

Until someone steps on it.

Seems that many still just want to argue and not actually deal with it.

I hope that finally you might understand other peoples issues, If not nothing anyone can write will persuade you.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE