These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Kronos] Pirate Faction Battleships

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#941 - 2014-04-20 00:04:09 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
The price is dropping again because the market is glutted. People like me have been hoarding Rattlesnake BPCs for months now in anticipation of a buff (it had to come eventually). Once the faction frigate buffs were announced, people started speculating in earnest in the Rattlesnake BPC market. For the time being, supply greatly outstrips demand. Once people can actually start using the ships the demand will pick up some. I expect prices for BPCs to stabilize at around 400m (still 150m more than prior to the announced changes).

As for issues with using the MJD… well, I think you are creating an issue. Why would you MJD to 100 away if your range is 81-84km? With the Rattlesnake, with an active tank (20% shield resist bonus is very nice for that too), there is no reason to use an MJD at all, except to escape hostiles. Any anomaly spawn, nearly every complex, and 95% of missions, the rats will start within your maximum drone control range. You may have gotten used to MJDing away from the rats, but it is hardly a necessary or efficient tactic in every situation (or even most situations).


Right, right.

Ok I do not intend to post all the posts again, I know there are 50 odd Pages, but surely you have read enough to know the issues by now?

Please explain how burning 25km at 115m/s is an enjoyable and rewarding play experience while you look up the overall issues.

Oh and have you ever visited a wormhole? You might find things have a different way of occuring other than L4 missions.
Sitting in the Middle of a mass of sleepers is such fun, I suggest you try it for giggles.
Maybe you will have the self restaint not to press the MJD button?
Start with a C1 and see if you can get as high as a C5, should be a load of fun!

To quote the punchline of a very old joke "can we watch?"

Heavens forbid that the rattlesnake is used anywhere else but HS L4 missions, we wouldn't want it to become desireable now would we?

You may detect a hint of sarcasm in this reply, possibly with good reason.


I haven't done any PVE in a WH since they first came out and a lot of mechanics have changed since then. So, I lack recent experience in that regard. From what I remember, however, I agree, I would not want to sit still right in the middle of them, at least not by myself. I still think you are positing a straw man. If it is an anomaly, you can warp in at range. If it is not, then the rats will not sit at range forever. Nor does anything prohibit you from MJDing at an angle away from the rats, so that you do not land 100km from them (obviously geometrically impossible if they are right at zero, but easy to do if they are 10-20 off you).

My experience, in missions, and more recently, in 0.0 anomalies and complexes, suggests that the Rattlesnake will be just fine. In terms of looking at whether a ship is going to be a good investment, or widely used, those two audiences are by far the largest market. If for some reason a ship with ~1400 DPS at moderate range and a shield resist bonus is useless in the relatively small WH market, it will be just fine everywhere else.

Would I ever complain if it gained another high slot? No. I sell them. An extra high slot would allow for some increased flexibility that might well make the ship incredibly popular (to a CCP Dev, that is usually synonymous with overpowered).

As for all the Grrr Goons! conspiracy theories running rampant, it's funny to me that it isn't a bunch of CFC members roaming through this thread promoting further buffs to the Rattlesnake. Or maybe all these people advocating further buff to the Rattlesnake are CFC alts?

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#942 - 2014-04-20 00:06:18 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


Yes yes, and that effects the issues with the ship how?

What it will become IS what matters, and people are factoring in that the changes may be locked in so demand has pretty much evaporated.

Yes you are right, everyone and thir mothers wands to offload them, I wonder why.

Maybe we should be trying to help makthe ships desireable instead?


What issue? It got straight buffed.



Shocked

Possibly you might want to make an attempt to read the forums on the Gila and rattlesnake.

You might find that there are opinions that reach a quite different conclusion?

Personally I find reading the forums helps to improve posting.
But I know probably just too much effort.


I read the threads about the Gila to a great extent.

All I saw was :"Waah I can't use the most broken weapon system in the game anymore!"

Sentry drones. Boo hoo. But those threads were noticeably absent with any real complaints.

Much like how the Rattlesnake is noticeably still able to use sentries. So it's fairly safe to assume the complaints about the Rattler are a by proxy way of trying to get your sentries back on the Gila by complaining about the entire "super drone" concept. You know, since they're coming from the exact same people pouring out tears about the Gila.

I have yet to see a legit complaint about the Rattlesnake. It has 7.5 effective drones, and now 7.5 effective launchers, and horrifyingly a damage bonus that applies to Rapid Heavy Missile Launchers, so the thing will be a quantifiable nightmare.



It is reassuring that you read the posts and understood the issues affecting other players with such empathy.
That you understood the issues and made such a constructive and reasonable response.

You're a credit to the EVE community.


........... No wait!Shocked

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#943 - 2014-04-20 00:08:47 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


It is reassuring that you read the posts and understood the issues affecting other players with such empathy.
That you understood the issues and made such a constructive and reasonable response.

You're a credit to the EVE community.


........... No wait!Shocked


So I say again, "What issue? It got straight buffed."

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#944 - 2014-04-20 00:15:24 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
The price is dropping again because the market is glutted. People like me have been hoarding Rattlesnake BPCs for months now in anticipation of a buff (it had to come eventually). Once the faction frigate buffs were announced, people started speculating in earnest in the Rattlesnake BPC market. For the time being, supply greatly outstrips demand. Once people can actually start using the ships the demand will pick up some. I expect prices for BPCs to stabilize at around 400m (still 150m more than prior to the announced changes).

As for issues with using the MJD… well, I think you are creating an issue. Why would you MJD to 100 away if your range is 81-84km? With the Rattlesnake, with an active tank (20% shield resist bonus is very nice for that too), there is no reason to use an MJD at all, except to escape hostiles. Any anomaly spawn, nearly every complex, and 95% of missions, the rats will start within your maximum drone control range. You may have gotten used to MJDing away from the rats, but it is hardly a necessary or efficient tactic in every situation (or even most situations).


Right, right.

Ok I do not intend to post all the posts again, I know there are 50 odd Pages, but surely you have read enough to know the issues by now?

Please explain how burning 25km at 115m/s is an enjoyable and rewarding play experience while you look up the overall issues.

Oh and have you ever visited a wormhole? You might find things have a different way of occuring other than L4 missions.
Sitting in the Middle of a mass of sleepers is such fun, I suggest you try it for giggles.
Maybe you will have the self restaint not to press the MJD button?
Start with a C1 and see if you can get as high as a C5, should be a load of fun!

To quote the punchline of a very old joke "can we watch?"

Heavens forbid that the rattlesnake is used anywhere else but HS L4 missions, we wouldn't want it to become desireable now would we?

You may detect a hint of sarcasm in this reply, possibly with good reason.


I haven't done any PVE in a WH since they first came out and a lot of mechanics have changed since then. So, I lack recent experience in that regard. From what I remember, however, I agree, I would not want to sit still right in the middle of them, at least not by myself. I still think you are positing a straw man. If it is an anomaly, you can warp in at range. If it is not, then the rats will not sit at range forever. Nor does anything prohibit you from MJDing at an angle away from the rats, so that you do not land 100km from them (obviously geometrically impossible if they are right at zero, but easy to do if they are 10-20 off you).

My experience, in missions, and more recently, in 0.0 anomalies and complexes, suggests that the Rattlesnake will be just fine. In terms of looking at whether a ship is going to be a good investment, or widely used, those two audiences are by far the largest market. If for some reason a ship with ~1400 DPS at moderate range and a shield resist bonus is useless in the relatively small WH market, it will be just fine everywhere else.

Would I ever complain if it gained another high slot? No. I sell them. An extra high slot would allow for some increased flexibility that might well make the ship incredibly popular (to a CCP Dev, that is usually synonymous with overpowered).

As for all the Grrr Goons! conspiracy theories running rampant, it's funny to me that it isn't a bunch of CFC members roaming through this thread promoting further buffs to the Rattlesnake. Or maybe all these people advocating further buff to the Rattlesnake are CFC alts?



I am very curious, that when multiple people express serious concerns, people come out of the woodwork, pick one small part of the discussion, rubbish that part, and declare everything is fine?

There are a lot of issues relating to the way the superdrone replacement (which is an excellent idea) is IMPLEMENTED that is causing concern, if you ignore all of that, well not much point discussing with you further until you make an attempt to read it.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#945 - 2014-04-20 00:16:48 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


It is reassuring that you read the posts and understood the issues affecting other players with such empathy.
That you understood the issues and made such a constructive and reasonable response.

You're a credit to the EVE community.


........... No wait!Shocked


So I say again, "What issue? It got straight buffed."




* Talks to wall to have a more reasonable and constructive conversation*

My my my, the troll is strong tonight. Or possibly I am being over kind.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Ambassador Spock
Doomheim
#946 - 2014-04-20 00:18:52 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Yes, I see all the happy Rattlesnake pilots dancing and frolicking, delighted with how all the changes are so wonderfully completely and utterly, perfect. Oh there's thousands of happy Guristas pilots posting, and they can't see anything wrong at all! All is perfect!
And those who disagree? Those who offer a solution? Well they are just wrong aren't they.Roll


Ah, no wait..........


Just want to say that I am a Rattlesnake pilot and I am indeed jumping around happily right now.

Extra launcher, all of them bonused? Awesome.
Sentries/Heavies do the same damage but a lot more surviveability? Awesome.
Lost the drone bonus to lights and mediums? Who cares, my 4 DDA's still affect them.

 --  - Ambassador Spock

"Vulcans never bluff."
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#947 - 2014-04-20 00:38:02 UTC
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them.

The Rules:
26. Off-topic posting is prohibited.

Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#948 - 2014-04-20 00:38:11 UTC
Last Wolf wrote:
Joe Boirele wrote:
I dunno, but I think I like the new rattler better.


Because it IS better.

Better than what?
What is it you are comparing the Snake to?

As a Pirate Battleship Missile platform it is indeed better (and new).
The severe limitations on drone usage and versatility will have a huge impact on fitting choices and options.

Fit it for Pvp - Beserkers, RHML, prop mod, web and scram.
Could be fun in a small gang as long as the price stays around where it has always been.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Joe Boirele
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#949 - 2014-04-20 00:40:58 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Last Wolf wrote:
Joe Boirele wrote:
I dunno, but I think I like the new rattler better.


Because it IS better.

Better than what?
What is it you are comparing the Snake to?


I was comparing it to the current rattler stats.

Enemies are just friends who stab you in the front.

"We will not go quietly into the night! We will not vanish without a fight!"
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#950 - 2014-04-20 01:09:42 UTC
Joe Boirele wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Last Wolf wrote:
Joe Boirele wrote:
I dunno, but I think I like the new rattler better.


Because it IS better.

Better than what?
What is it you are comparing the Snake to?


I was comparing it to the current rattler stats.

Ok.. Well, the current Snake fills a role for many players and has served those who like it (as a drone boat) well.
It has essentially had its ability to fill many of its current roles severely reduced by limiting drone versatility.

So while the Snake has received a nice buff it has completely changed the way the ship can be played.

Your a missile platform fan - Snake will serve you well, you will still have support drones.
If you prefer the drone platform, you need to get the balance just right, you won't have the versatility you do now.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#951 - 2014-04-20 01:12:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Give it up, people. Epicurius is not going to post anything you can actually make any use of.

Sgt Ocker wrote:
Ok.. Well, the current Snake fills a role for many players and has served those who like it (as a drone boat) well.
It has essentially had its ability to fill many of its current roles severely reduced by limiting drone versatility.

So while the Snake has received a nice buff it has completely changed the way the ship can be played.

Your a missile platform fan - Snake will serve you well, you will still have support drones.
If you prefer the drone platform, you need to get the balance just right, you won't have the versatility you do now.


All these complaints about "drone versatility" seem to center around the bay being reduced. So let me ask you a question, Mr. Sgt. Ocker: What precisely did you used to carry in your drone bay before? Be specific.

No, really. I want to know exactly what you carry in your RS' bay right now on TQ.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#952 - 2014-04-20 01:14:36 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:

Ok.. Well, the current Snake fills a role for many players and has served those who like it (as a drone boat) well.
It has essentially had its ability to fill many of its current roles severely reduced by limiting drone versatility.

So while the Snake has received a nice buff it has completely changed the way the ship can be played.

Your a missile platform fan - Snake will serve you well, you will still have support drones.
If you prefer the drone platform, you need to get the balance just right, you won't have the versatility you do now.


It would interest me to know how many people relied on using light drones on a battleship platform, and for what.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
KaDa en Bauldry
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#953 - 2014-04-20 01:18:05 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Ok.. Well, the current Snake fills a role for many players and has served those who like it (as a drone boat) well.
It has essentially had its ability to fill many of its current roles severely reduced by limiting drone versatility.
So while the Snake has received a nice buff it has completely changed the way the ship can be played.
Your a missile platform fan - Snake will serve you well, you will still have support drones.
If you prefer the drone platform, you need to get the balance just right, you won't have the versatility you do now.

It would interest me to know how many people relied on using light drones on a battleship platform, and for what.

Frig rat killing when they start too close for sentries, and ludicrious amounts of ECM drones to release in lowsec, should you make a mistake.

Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#954 - 2014-04-20 01:19:38 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
It would interest me to know how many people relied on using light drones on a battleship platform, and for what.


My TFI relies on light drones to kill rat frigs that get in under my 800s. Because sometimes it happens. My testing Vargur on SiSi relies on them for the same purpose, but mostly relies on salvage drones while the 800s make more wrecks.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#955 - 2014-04-20 01:21:58 UTC
KaDa en Bauldry wrote:

Frig rat killing when they start too close for sentries, and ludicrious amounts of ECM drones to release in lowsec, should you make a mistake.


You can still load light drones. Yeah, they lost their bonuses, but they didn't go away. And you still have several slots for Drone Damage Amplifiers to pump them up for such a niche use.

But now you can't use the dronebay to cover every single eventuality, all the time, ever. Having to make tradeoffs is a good thing. It promotes smart gameplay, punishes stupid gameplay. I sincerely hope that they continue to push this philosophy.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#956 - 2014-04-20 01:31:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Perhaps you guys misunderstood my statement.

Sgt Ocker said: "It has completely changed the way the ship can be played"

How? You lost bonused light and medium drones. Is there anyone here who buys a faction battleship to use light drones? *crickets*

So can anyone please tell me how using unbonused light drones to scrape frigate rats off of you (like damn near every other battleship) "completely changes the way the ship can be played"?

It can fit 100m3 worth of heavy/sentry drones, and 3 full flights of light sized drones, so I know the dronebay loss can't be it.

So seriously, can someone tell me what the big freaking deal is?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
KaDa en Bauldry
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#957 - 2014-04-20 01:46:17 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
Frig rat killing when they start too close for sentries
You can still load light drones. Yeah, they lost their bonuses, but they didn't go away. And you still have several slots for Drone Damage Amplifiers to pump them up for such a niche use.
Getting rid of scrambling rats is in no what a niche use imho when they start within 15km of you in a L4, and since they eat your drones quite fast, that 33% health will be missed. I had two rats kill off one drone that was 7km from me and 90% shield when I recalled before...

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Perhaps you guys misunderstood my statement.

Perhaps we answered the question you asked, and not the one you had. P


But yes, it doesn't completely change the game for me, just need to MLJD more often, it works against frigate rats better than light drones anyways, so the cruise missile buff is an overall buff for me in *most* cases.

Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#958 - 2014-04-20 01:53:24 UTC
KaDa en Bauldry wrote:

But yes, it doesn't completely change the game for me, just need to MLJD more often, it works against frigate rats better than light drones anyways, so the cruise missile buff is an overall buff for me in *most* cases.


You even answered it above. Rats don't scram, they disrupt, the MJD is the answer. There are very few battleships that can justify not using one in a PvE situation.

And honestly, even so, so many battleships get away with just using unbonused light drones to scrape off tackle frigates, even ones that normally would be insane to fit DDAs. It works just fine for that, even still.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#959 - 2014-04-20 02:00:10 UTC
I like the versatility and general usefulness that drones provide, but I hate - freaking hate - the micromanagement. That's probably why all my ships feature drones as a distant second.

These changes to the Rattlesnake, however. Fewer drones with significantly more HP per drone? Useful missiles on top of that, allowing me to focus the fit around missiles, drones or both depending on the situation and my mood at the time? Well now, this is a ship that just got interesting.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#960 - 2014-04-20 02:42:29 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
I like the versatility and general usefulness that drones provide, but I hate - freaking hate - the micromanagement. That's probably why all my ships feature drones as a distant second.

Yeah, I can't echo these sentiments enough.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.