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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Battleships

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kogelbiefstuk
Contraband lnc
GameTheory
#681 - 2014-04-16 18:56:29 UTC
Nice job here, i think these are more realistic and reasonable changes over the other two ship class changes.
Iski Zuki DaSen
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#682 - 2014-04-16 19:00:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Iski Zuki DaSen
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Iski Zuki DaSen wrote:
In my opinion
RS should have the same 275% bonus to all drones not just heavy and sentry drones
Gila should have the same 500% bonus not just to medium but to light drones as well



I understand, the Gila particularly suffers, but the Gila bonus to the 4 lights must be lower or the lights would be more powerful than the mediums, so 200% would be more sensible and balanced across the board.



yes u are probably right but my point is giving them specific drone bonus kinda cripples them

drone boat means versatility / missiles also giving them specific missile dmage and specific drones only doesnt seem right

a better plan is frigate have light drones bonus / cruiser light and medium / battleship all drones
with each one of them having the best bonus in their class drones
Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
#683 - 2014-04-16 20:34:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Last Wolf
Large gun boats don't have damage bonus to medium/light turrets, and with the exception of the snake, missile boats don't have damage bonus to smaller missiles either. (And medium weapon systems don't get bonus to small/large weapons). Why should drone boats get special treatment? I think the only reason drone boats have had universal damage bonuses up till now was because it was progamatically easier to bonus everything. Now that they have revised the code and spit some skills up I think we are going to see a lot of drone boats get their damage bonuses change to only effect a certain drone size.

Which is the way It should have been since 2003.
Especially now that done damage mods exist. 5 light drones buffed with 3x dda's are doing more damage than most tech 1 frigs piloted by an actual pilot.

That awkward moment at the Gentlemen's Club when you see your sister on the stage....and you're not sure where to put the money....
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#684 - 2014-04-16 21:08:09 UTC
I will enjoy pooping out T1 cruisers from my Rattler come this summer.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#685 - 2014-04-16 22:04:03 UTC
Last Wolf wrote:
Large gun boats don't have damage bonus to medium/light turrets, and with the exception of the snake, missile boats don't have damage bonus to smaller missiles either. (And medium weapon systems don't get bonus to small/large weapons). Why should drone boats get special treatment? I think the only reason drone boats have had universal damage bonuses up till now was because it was progamatically easier to bonus everything. Now that they have revised the code and spit some skills up I think we are going to see a lot of drone boats get their damage bonuses change to only effect a certain drone size.

Which is the way It should have been since 2003.
Especially now that done damage mods exist. 5 light drones buffed with 3x dda's are doing more damage than most tech 1 frigs piloted by an actual pilot.


The light drone matter is really not of a big significance for the rattlesnake, bit more troublesome for the Gila, not saying you can't find a way around it but losing 50% of your defences to elite frigates etc on the GILA need consideration when you are working out the balance of the fit.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Topher Basquette Dusch-shur
Montana Freedom Fighters
#686 - 2014-04-16 22:19:38 UTC
WARNING: THE FOLLOWING POST CONTAINS PVE CONTENT. IF YOU ARE AGAINST PVE FOR ANY REASON-SUCH AS NEVER NEEDING TO USE META MODS OR MINERALS TO BUILD THE SHIPS YOU LOSE-YOU MAY SIMPLY QUOTE THE BELOW TEXT AND MAKE YOUR USUAL "Roll PVE SUCKS Pirate PVP IS THE ONLY WAY TO PLAY" COMMENTS AND NO ONE WILL KNOW YOU DIDN'T READ IT.

/book

About the Rattle no longer having a bonus to lights and mediums:

Sure the lights on a raven aren’t bonused, but you don’t have to put your launchers away to use them either. Having to pull back your sentries to launch unbonused lights would be the equivalent to forcing a raven pilot to replace half of it’s launchers with unbonused rocket launchers to deal with frigs. The fact that their lights are unbonused doesn’t matter for most of the other hulls because they only use them on frigates; they can still keep applying their full damage to larger targets. Sure sentries can pop frigs on the way in, but that is the same as any turret boat, but turret boats get to shoot at bigger things while their hobbies are out. The bonused lights make it so that the time that I deal less damage than peer ships is shorter. Even with the bonus the swapping puts the ship will still be behind its pirate peers in completion times, but it's not by too much, without the bonues the difference will become very noticeable.

As far as calling the current rattle a hybrid platform. That is pretty laughable. The velocity bonus in PVE is mostly used to pull agro so that things will move closer. The second DLA is of massive importance here. After the change you can expect to fly this ship like a slower but tankier ‘Phoon Fleet Issue. You will have a range reduction, but honestly, you will still do better than auto-cannons or blasters. It will be okay guys.

Searching Eve Gate has not given me any post in which a Dev or GM justifies the -1 slot on the drone boats (maybe it’s in an old forum post, I don’t have access to old forums at work). When mentioned the excuses that I see players give is that “the Devs said it’s because drones give you utility and versatility which takes up a slot on other ships”. I can understand this when the ships have the drone bay or bandwidth to use them, that is why other ships get their slots because they can’t use 5 heavy e-war drones. Well now the Guristas ships have the same limit and the same lack of bonuses as the other ships, I don’t think the players asking for the slot are being greedy, I think it’s fair to give them back the slot they are missing since they will no longer have the utility.

The Rattle was my favorite ship for about a year. I still use it often. The new changes will not affect the times that I chose to use it. The only thing the balance will change for me is that I'm going to fly the Nightmare now as well.

/book
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#687 - 2014-04-16 22:28:28 UTC
Last Wolf wrote:
Large gun boats don't have damage bonus to medium/light turrets, and with the exception of the snake, missile boats don't have damage bonus to smaller missiles either. (And medium weapon systems don't get bonus to small/large weapons). Why should drone boats get special treatment? I think the only reason drone boats have had universal damage bonuses up till now was because it was progamatically easier to bonus everything. Now that they have revised the code and spit some skills up I think we are going to see a lot of drone boats get their damage bonuses change to only effect a certain drone size.

Which is the way It should have been since 2003.
Especially now that done damage mods exist. 5 light drones buffed with 3x dda's are doing more damage than most tech 1 frigs piloted by an actual pilot.

Actually several missile ships have bonuses that will apply to smaller systems.. Mostly seen in the Cruiser classes though.


Also Drone boats are already punished by having delayed DPS with the launching/recovering of drones, and the fact that unlike any other ship, Drone boats are the only ones that you can kill their main weapon system.

When I get to target and destroy each blaster on a Vindi, then we can talk about making drones work like guns.. till then, they are a weapon system that already has drawbacks built in, it doesn't need any more by losing damage across the board.
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#688 - 2014-04-16 22:36:38 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


Note:- rattlesnake is often passive tanked so shield recharge modules. (Shield power relay)


If you are passive tanking this new version when you could be using 5-6 damage mods there is something wrong with you (outside of niche use). Active tank and resists is the only way to go now for PVE. As few tank slots as poss. Balls to the wall dps and as many application mods as poss (painter will aid sentries and cruise).

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#689 - 2014-04-16 22:39:46 UTC
That rattlesnake doesn't feel right, it's lost it's character they might as well rename it as they've effectively removed an old ship and replaced it with another model, merely keeping the same name.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Topher Basquette Dusch-shur
Montana Freedom Fighters
#690 - 2014-04-16 23:07:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Topher Basquette Dusch-shur
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
That rattlesnake doesn't feel right, it's lost it's character they might as well rename it as they've effectively removed an old ship and replaced it with another model, merely keeping the same name.



Here you go:

RATTLESNAKE-Melee

Gallente Battleship Bonus:
10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage (was 10% drone damage and hitpoints)

Caldari Battleship Bonus:
20% bonus to effectiveness of target painters per level

Role Bonus:
99% Reduction to missile velocity and travel time
100% Fitting requirement for Capital Tractor Beams
-Note: Capital Tractor Beams fit to the Rattlesnake can be used on Frigates, Cruisers, Battlecruisers and Industrial class ships

Slot layout: 8H(+2), 7M, 4L(-2); 0 turrets, 8 launchers(+4)
Fittings: 10000 PWG, 710 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 12750 / 8940(-358) / 9960
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 5350(+38) / 1154000ms / 4.59
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 94 / .128 / 99300000 / 18.45s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0(-125) / 0(-all of it)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km / 100 / 7
Sensor strength: 30
Signature radius: 450(-10)

Edit: Missed an "l" and "8" and now with 76% less silly.
Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
#691 - 2014-04-16 23:23:29 UTC
Topher Basquette Dusch-shur wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
That rattlesnake doesn't feel right, it's lost it's character they might as well rename it as they've effectively removed an old ship and replaced it with another model, merely keeping the same name.



Here you go:

RATTLESNAKE-Melee

Gallente Battleship Bonus:
10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage (was 10% drone damage and hitpoints)

Caldari Battleship Bonus:
20% bonus to effectiveness of target painters per level

Role Bonus:
99% Reduction to missile velocity and travel time
100% Fitting requirement for Capital Tractor Beams
-Note: Capital Tractor Beams fit to the Rattlesnake can be used on Frigates, Cruisers, Battlecruisers and Industrial class ships

Slot layout: 8H(+2), 7M, 4L(-2); 0 turrets, 8 launchers(+4)
Fittings: 10000 PWG, 710 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 12750 / 8940(-358) / 9960
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 5350(+38) / 1154000ms / 4.59
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 94 / .128 / 99300000 / 18.45s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0(-125) / 0(-all of it)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km / 100 / 7
Sensor strength: 30
Signature radius: 450(-10)

Edit: Missed an "l" and "8" and now with 76% less silly.


You forgot the 9th Highslot so that we can fit the capital tractor beam.

That awkward moment at the Gentlemen's Club when you see your sister on the stage....and you're not sure where to put the money....
Topher Basquette Dusch-shur
Montana Freedom Fighters
#692 - 2014-04-16 23:41:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Topher Basquette Dusch-shur
Last Wolf wrote:

You forgot the 9th Highslot so that we can fit the capital tractor beam.


Nah, the game is all about tradeoffs. You don't want it to be overpowered so you have to trade a launcher if you want to use the capital tractor beam.

Edit: Messed up the "[quote=Last Wolf]" when I cut it down.
Liu Lios
Pitta Giros Food Company
#693 - 2014-04-17 00:15:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Liu Lios
The whole point in mission running is being able to watch a movie at the same time, correct?
That means, sit comfortably at 100-120km range and shoot at things with no worries.

The new rattlesnake is no better at doing that than the old one. You re still limited by high slots number. You need 3 for drone link augmentors. I typically have a heavy neut equipped just in case so, that leaves 2 high slots for cruise missile launchers.
In other words, going from potentially 4 to potentially 5 missile launchers is not useful at all for the sniper. So whats left? Nothing really.
The ships is simply getting more expensive.

Gah i think i ll stick to my domi.
The rattlesnake is too ugly anyway (only worst looking ship is asymmetrical machariel so plz, dont change that)
Hasril Pux
Red Cabal
#694 - 2014-04-17 00:45:59 UTC
I know how much hate I'm going to get for suggesting something so mundane and in line with what this particular Worm/Gila/Rattlesnake pilot would rather see.

But we're all entitled to our opinions so... like whatever, man.

WORM

Gallente Frigate Bonus:
4% bonus to light drone damage and hitpoints

Caldari Frigate Bonus:
4% bonus to all shield resistances

Role Bonus:
50% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage


Slot layout: 3H, 4M, 3L; 0 turrets, 2 launchers
Fittings: 40 PWG(+5), 180 CPU(+20)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 830(+33) / 500(-82) / 620(-3)
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 380(+30) / 212000 (-22375) / 1.79 (+.29)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 320(+33) / 3.8(+.31) / 965000 / 5.17s(+.42)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 50
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km / 650 / 5
Sensor strength: 15
Signature radius: 40

===============================================

GILA

Gallente Cruiser Bonus:
10% bonus to drone damage and hitpoints

Caldari Cruiser Bonus:
4% bonus to all shield resistances

Role Bonus:
50% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage


Slot layout: 5H, 6M, 4L; 0 turrets, 4 launchers(+1)
Fittings: 670 PWG(+40), 400 CPU(+50)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 3200(+12) / 2200(-125) / 2490
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 1400(+25) / 530000 (-1250) / 2.85
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 195(+31) / .66 / 9600000 / 8.78s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 400
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 58km (+3km) / 285 / 7
Sensor strength: 22
Signature radius: 145(-5)
Cargo Hold: 440

===============================================

RATTLESNAKE

Gallente Battleship Bonus:
10% bonus to drone damage and hitpoints

Caldari Battleship Bonus:
4% bonus to all shield resistances

Role Bonus:
60% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage (more, but then... slightly less... I sorry)


Slot layout: 6H, 7M, 6L; 0 turrets, 4 launchers
Fittings: 10000 PWG, 710 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 12750 / 8940(-358) / 9960
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 5350(+38) / 1154000ms / 4.59
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 94 / .128 / 99300000 / 18.45s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 400
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km / 100 / 7
Sensor strength: 30
Signature radius: 450(-10)

Just take it with a stalagmite of salt and be glad I'm not a DEV, okay?

Not that a post like this is ever going to amount to anything anyway, but feedback was asked for and so here it is.

If you like any of the older ship models (original artwork) better than the redesign of your favorite hull and don't want them to be lost forever, support ship customization and this feature request.
Ragnen Delent
13.
#695 - 2014-04-17 01:28:01 UTC
The fact that you consider yourself a pilot of a specific hull speaks volumes of your understanding of how this game works. If you have become so attached to one that modifications to it cause this much upset then you should very much reconsider how you approach ships in this game.

The whole gimmick with the Guristas ships is that they are supposed to represent a hybrid Gallente/Caldari weapons platform that focuses on whatever weight class the ship is. Ship hulls in and of themselves are not "roles". You cannot characterize or justify balance adjustments with respect to the hulls flavor and not its intended role on the grounds that you want it to serve whatever purpose suits you. Doing so makes balancing decisions be conditional to whatever arbitrary vision a player has for the hull, and can never reflect everyone's vision for it.

If you want to put in useful feedback, don't just throwback different numbers: I cannot see CCP changing their numeric decisions because someone posted different numbers. Clearly define what exactly it is you think the ship SHOULD do, and give reasons for why, other than "I like the way I currently envision the ship". Why? Because without doing so there is no way to counter argue or develop any points against your position, because they are inherent to you. There is no way you are an authority on what "Worm/Gila/Rattlesnake pilot[s]" believe, and your individual perspective doesn't really hold much weight if it does not come from any rational place.
Hasril Pux
Red Cabal
#696 - 2014-04-17 02:35:36 UTC
Ragnen Delent wrote:
The fact that you consider yourself a pilot of a specific hull speaks volumes of your understanding of how this game works. If you have become so attached to one that modifications to it cause this much upset then you should very much reconsider how you approach ships in this game.

The whole gimmick with the Guristas ships is that they are supposed to represent a hybrid Gallente/Caldari weapons platform that focuses on whatever weight class the ship is. Ship hulls in and of themselves are not "roles". You cannot characterize or justify balance adjustments with respect to the hulls flavor and not its intended role on the grounds that you want it to serve whatever purpose suits you. Doing so makes balancing decisions be conditional to whatever arbitrary vision a player has for the hull, and can never reflect everyone's vision for it.

If you want to put in useful feedback, don't just throwback different numbers: I cannot see CCP changing their numeric decisions because someone posted different numbers. Clearly define what exactly it is you think the ship SHOULD do, and give reasons for why, other than "I like the way I currently envision the ship". Why? Because without doing so there is no way to counter argue or develop any points against your position, because they are inherent to you. There is no way you are an authority on what "Worm/Gila/Rattlesnake pilot[s]" believe, and your individual perspective doesn't really hold much weight if it does not come from any rational place.


Nice assumptions about my character and intentions.

As has been said numerous times by myself and others (for no good reason, I'm sure) who fly Guristas ships NON-EXCLUSSIVELY; the loss of versatility in the Guristas line will indeed be a significant loss, medium drone "activation proximity" (which is hilariously 2 kilometers inside the max firing range of a Valkyrie II) means that the Gila's main line of attack will have trouble applying damage to anything that moves faster than it's drone's orbit velocity (600 meters per second on a Valkyrie II) because the drone will often fall behind and then try to catch up to the target. I think that the drastic changes to the Guristas line are not justified by the original premise, that these ships are too similar in role to some Gallente ships, as if missile spewing, shield tanking, Caldari hulled drone boats are not unique enough by themselves. I agree that they're not good enough as they are now, hence my numbers dump. I apologize if that doesn't meet your expectations for what useful feedback is, but I'd rather say what I think than sit back and say nothing at all when I feel strongly opposed to the changes being proposed to a ship I very much enjoy flying.

If you like any of the older ship models (original artwork) better than the redesign of your favorite hull and don't want them to be lost forever, support ship customization and this feature request.
Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
#697 - 2014-04-17 02:58:16 UTC
Hasril Pux wrote:
snip... a ship I very much enjoy flying.


I don't have anything meaningful to add other than: Can it really be called "Flying" if it is in space? Do planets and stars "Fly"?

Considering EVE's "Flying" through space is more like driving a speed boat through pudding, I think we should re-coin the term "Flying" to "Floating".

So that EVE pilots can finally get the satisfaction being able to do whatever floats their boats.


That awkward moment at the Gentlemen's Club when you see your sister on the stage....and you're not sure where to put the money....
Ragnen Delent
13.
#698 - 2014-04-17 05:26:09 UTC
Hasril Pux wrote:

Nice assumptions about my character and intentions.


You have said multiple times in posts within this thread that you see yourself as a pilot of these hulls, i'm not sure how else we are supposed to interpret those statements.

Hasril Pux wrote:

As has been said numerous times by myself and others (for no good reason, I'm sure) who fly Guristas ships NON-EXCLUSSIVELY; the loss of versatility in the Guristas line will indeed be a significant loss, medium drone "activation proximity" (which is hilariously 2 kilometers inside the max firing range of a Valkyrie II) means that the Gila's main line of attack will have trouble applying damage to anything that moves faster than it's drone's orbit velocity (600 meters per second on a Valkyrie II) because the drone will often fall behind and then try to catch up to the target. I think that the drastic changes to the Guristas line are not justified by the original premise, that these ships are too similar in role to some Gallente ships, as if missile spewing, shield tanking, Caldari hulled drone boats are not unique enough by themselves.


Why does a hull have to be so versatile that it is capable of fighting all types of ships? Why should a battleship class vessel be able to fight RLMLs and lights, get full bonuses to them, and effectively be a giant fly swatter (note that the stats your proposed would in effect do this, though I do understand if that was not your intent). The changes being proposed create an interesting set of a ships that are specialized to shoot at their own weight class. Because these ships currently offer a poor but flexible platform should not mean that when adjusted they should keep the flexibility and gain in power as well. At least to me, the intention of these changes was to make the hybrid aspect of these ships more pronounced, because currently the most effect fit was to favor one weapon type over the other.

Hasril Pux wrote:
I agree that they're not good enough as they are now, hence my numbers dump. I apologize if that doesn't meet your expectations for what useful feedback is, but I'd rather say what I think than sit back and say nothing at all when I feel strongly opposed to the changes being proposed to a ship I very much enjoy flying.


I'm just trying to point out that simply stating you disagree with a change, while not defining the problems you have with it beyond "I like to do a nebulous thing with it" is not much for someone to work with if they're attempting to assess issues with a change. What do you do with these ships? What do you like about them? Why do you think the things you like are worth keeping, and how do the changes you propose keep to that spirit?
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#699 - 2014-04-17 06:03:23 UTC
I don't think any of these changes are going to be for me - at least until (if) they come out with a missile-based Pirate line. But I'm glad they're gaining wide acceptance for the most part.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#700 - 2014-04-17 06:58:39 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
why do some have 19 slots and the mach/vindi has 20?


I believe because when the models were updated there wasn't room for the number of effective turrets needed so they were given less slots with larger role bonuses. The Rattlesnake has less because of drones. We talked about adjusting for them all to have the same number but we like where the balance is for them and didn't feel it was worth messing with just for the sake of making the slot count match.

An extra 25m in the drone bay for the Snake would be nice - allow 4 flights of drones (2 of sentries, 2 of heavies)
With space for only 7 drones it limits options greatly.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.