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No More High Sec Manufacturing?

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Hal Safon
Filthy Peasants
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#141 - 2014-04-16 16:34:03 UTC
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
i like that the poses don't require absurd standings now, that's nice.


I sort of do as well, but what is going to happen if you want a moon and someone else has a POS there is this:

1) Pay 50mil to wardec corp owning POS;
2) Corp owning POS takes down their POS before war starts;
3) Corp owning POS jumps to new corp and throws up new POS at moon at the same time (2) is being completed;
4) Pay 50mil to wardec corp in step 3.
5) Give up on new moon.




I have to imagine there will be a mechanic introduced to avoid this abuse.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#142 - 2014-04-16 16:51:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Gully Alex Foyle
Hal Safon wrote:
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
i like that the poses don't require absurd standings now, that's nice.


I sort of do as well, but what is going to happen if you want a moon and someone else has a POS there is this:

1) Pay 50mil to wardec corp owning POS;
2) Corp owning POS takes down their POS before war starts;
3) Corp owning POS jumps to new corp and throws up new POS at moon at the same time (2) is being completed;
4) Pay 50mil to wardec corp in step 3.
5) Give up on new moon.




I have to imagine there will be a mechanic introduced to avoid this abuse.
Well, anyone can do step 3 and/or try to suicide gank the other Corp's hauler carrying the new tower while the old one is being unanchored.

Seriously though, with so many moons becoming available (remember 0.8-1.0 systems will be 'opened', Tippia estimated 13.000 'new' moons!) if you really want that moon it's not so crazy to occasionally have to play 'who can anchor a new tower first' games.

EDIT: also, step 5 could well be 'the 'target' corp gives up first because all this taking down / putting up of POSs is preventing them from actually using the POS, wasting their time and probably making them lose ISK because of repeated cancelling of manuf/invention jobs'. So the wardeccing corp eventually gets their moon.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#143 - 2014-04-16 16:53:13 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
[t's more like absolute greed and disregard for fellow humanity that has resulted in the offshoring of jobs. "Free trade" , tax havens/breaks, and the short sightedness of corporate management driven by stock pricing has created an incentive to send jobs overseas.

Eve is a game where we pretend to be immortal beings floating around in space within a set of rules defined by CCP. An attempt at a serious comparison of Eve industry to real life production is a fool's errand.


Immortal beings possessed of absolute greed, and a disregard for fellow humanity. I still don't see how this analogy breaks down.
ashley Eoner
#144 - 2014-04-16 16:56:32 UTC
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
[t's more like absolute greed and disregard for fellow humanity that has resulted in the offshoring of jobs. "Free trade" , tax havens/breaks, and the short sightedness of corporate management driven by stock pricing has created an incentive to send jobs overseas.

Eve is a game where we pretend to be immortal beings floating around in space within a set of rules defined by CCP. An attempt at a serious comparison of Eve industry to real life production is a fool's errand.


Immortal beings possessed of absolute greed, and a disregard for fellow humanity. I still don't see how this analogy breaks down.

haha I'll give you that.
Dave Stark
#145 - 2014-04-16 17:07:46 UTC
Silvetica Dian wrote:
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
i like that the poses don't require absurd standings now, that's nice.


I sort of do as well, but what is going to happen if you want a moon and someone else has a POS there is this:

1) Pay 50mil to wardec corp owning POS;
2) Corp owning POS takes down their POS before war starts;
3) Corp owning POS jumps to new corp and throws up new POS at moon at the same time (2) is being completed;
4) Pay 50mil to wardec corp in step 3.
5) Give up on new moon.



Then i really hope no one is allowed to anchor a POS until they have been in their current corp for 10 days to prevent abuse like this.


look at it from the other side; 50m per day to stop some one using a pos.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#146 - 2014-04-16 17:22:49 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
look at it from the other side; 50m per day to stop some one using a pos.
Exactly. Also, no more than 50m once or twice a week would probably be enough to make their POS operations impossibly tedious and unprofitable.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Dave Stark
#147 - 2014-04-16 17:24:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
look at it from the other side; 50m per day to stop some one using a pos.
Exactly. Also, no more than 50m once or twice a week would probably be enough to make their POS operations impossibly tedious and unprofitable.


it's not like it's a situation that can't be countered.

simply grow a pair and defend your [not you specifically, but you get the point] pos.

if some one is unwilling to protect their pos, 50m/24hrs to disrupt them, if not... content creation \o/
Zeera Tomb-Raider
Vega Farscape
#148 - 2014-04-16 17:53:08 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Zeera Tomb-Raider wrote:
Missions will be pointless to do nowe LP was just a nice bonus for working on standings
Yeah, it could make sense for CCP to still retain some advantage regarding faction standings. For example a significant discount in the new NPC station manufacturing/research fees formula.

I hawe made up may mind going to unsub 5 acconts im don as indi pilot in this game,if all nerfs to hi sec hade been in 1 patch sins i started playin i think they had lost a lott more subs,in sted they nerf hi sec a littel bit ich time they have a bigg update so not hard to se wher this ending,
Slade Trillgon
Brutor Force Federated
#149 - 2014-04-16 17:54:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Slade Trillgon
ashley Eoner wrote:
Slade Trillgon wrote:
Thibault Etienne wrote:
OK heres perspective.
I'm scottish but ill use this exapmple. No offence meant to people in my examples. I know this eve crowd just love to jump on someone.

High sec USA
Low sec Middle East
Null Sec Somalia and the Africas

If I'm making stuff to sell in USA I'd make it in the USA where its meant to be safer for production.
You think I'll fly from the states make stuff in the Middle East where its far less civilised then fly back to the USA fighting off gate camps and pirates to sell it.

Come on CCP. I hope you really aint thinking of making hi sec manufacturing less efficient. It makes no sense.


Actually that exact scenario has been happening in the US for a decade or more. The cost of manufacturing got so high due to labor costs that the owners of many companies have either shipped their produ tion lines to Asia or have completely sold their company to a foriegn investor.

Bullshit. Labor costs are marginal here as evidenced by google producing phones here and even Apple moving some production back to the states. Apple's biggest reason for producing in China is that they have essentially slave labor that can be called up in large numbers on demand with little notice and then dismissed when not needed. Mushkin makes excellent SSD drives and memory here in the USA at very competitive prices. It's more like absolute greed and disregard for fellow humanity that has resulted in the offshoring of jobs. "Free trade" , tax havens/breaks, and the short sightedness of corporate management driven by stock pricing has created an incentive to send jobs overseas.

Eve is a game where we pretend to be immortal beings floating around in space within a set of rules defined by CCP. An attempt at a serious comparison of Eve industry to real life production is a fool's errand.



I do not disagree with you. Just because I omitted the fact that company owners could have taken a hit to their profit margin to accept the natural rise in labor wages does not disprove the fact that what I said has been happening. Just because some companies are capable of turning a profit manufacturing in the States does not change the fact that much of the manufacturing has been shipped over seas. Where does all of the steel and iron work that used to happen in Pennsylvania occur currently? Please note that I said MANY companies and not ALL companies.

EDIT: As for your comment about labor costs being marginal, the Federal Government is pushing to raise the minimum wage yet again. Plus you said that the companies that outsource to Asia do it because they basically have slave loabor that they can call in and dismiss with little to no cost. How is that even close to being in line with..."Labor costs are marginal here"? I mean slave labor versus $7.25+/hour base...yep that is a marginal cost difference Roll
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#150 - 2014-04-16 18:12:42 UTC
Zeera Tomb-Raider wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Zeera Tomb-Raider wrote:
Missions will be pointless to do nowe LP was just a nice bonus for working on standings
Yeah, it could make sense for CCP to still retain some advantage regarding faction standings. For example a significant discount in the new NPC station manufacturing/research fees formula.

I hawe made up may mind going to unsub 5 acconts im don as indi pilot in this game,if all nerfs to hi sec hade been in 1 patch sins i started playin i think they had lost a lott more subs,in sted they nerf hi sec a littel bit ich time they have a bigg update so not hard to se wher this ending,
? Can't really see how this is related to my post suggesting CCP could think of a way to preserve some of the value of faction standings (given so many people - not me, btw - invested heaps of time in it).

Why do you think highsec is being nerfed? And even if it is, what's preventing you from being a lowsec, nullsec or WH indy pilot? Combat PVP is fantastic but in no way a prerequisite for successful living out of highsec.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
#151 - 2014-04-16 18:25:11 UTC
Altessa Post wrote:
It looks extremely bad, --- for me.

I have no problem with risk, hiring mercenaries, cost etc. These can all be estimated and factored in. And they are the same for everybody. But how about the effort I put into the game in the last two years to position myself ahead of competition?
Yes, research and copy slots are a scarce resource. This is why setting up a POS in high sec is desirable. Yet, it is not easy. Building up the necessary faction standing was tedious and mildly boring. Yet, I did this to have a competitive advantage. And this now flies out of the window. Free POS in high sec for everybody!

I have no problem with adapting to new playgrounds. Yet, I think CCP is about to remove something for which I worked really hard. This appears neither balanced nor fair.


I agree, but you had to know this was coming when they made POCOs not require any standing.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#152 - 2014-04-16 19:51:45 UTC
Zeera Tomb-Raider wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Zeera Tomb-Raider wrote:
Missions will be pointless to do nowe LP was just a nice bonus for working on standings
Yeah, it could make sense for CCP to still retain some advantage regarding faction standings. For example a significant discount in the new NPC station manufacturing/research fees formula.

I hawe made up may mind going to unsub 5 acconts im don as indi pilot in this game,if all nerfs to hi sec hade been in 1 patch sins i started playin i think they had lost a lott more subs,in sted they nerf hi sec a littel bit ich time they have a bigg update so not hard to se wher this ending,



So you have not even seen the other blogs, the one that tells you how much X will cost, and he like and you are already panicking? Christ people. Stop with the knee jerk omg the sky is falling, garbage. Get all your info, you have till june ish, then decide. Or maybe wait till the expansion is deployed, then quit.

If you want to send a message, it is stupid to quit BEFORE an expansion is released. Better to wait till after, as then your 5 accounts might make them go 'uh oh' or you might go 'hey I actually like this a hell of a lot better'

10 years of eve has taught me to wait till I play something before I freak. I was pissed when they removed my 8 ogre II's from my thorax ages ago. I was mad at some of the early carrier changes ages ago. But honestly, after i played, I agreed with the changes and understood. Wait and see, don't be ignorant.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#153 - 2014-04-16 22:46:41 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Hal Safon wrote:
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
i like that the poses don't require absurd standings now, that's nice.


I sort of do as well, but what is going to happen if you want a moon and someone else has a POS there is this:

1) Pay 50mil to wardec corp owning POS;
2) Corp owning POS takes down their POS before war starts;
3) Corp owning POS jumps to new corp and throws up new POS at moon at the same time (2) is being completed;
4) Pay 50mil to wardec corp in step 3.
5) Give up on new moon.




I have to imagine there will be a mechanic introduced to avoid this abuse.
Well, anyone can do step 3 and/or try to suicide gank the other Corp's hauler carrying the new tower while the old one is being unanchored.

Seriously though, with so many moons becoming available (remember 0.8-1.0 systems will be 'opened', Tippia estimated 13.000 'new' moons!) if you really want that moon it's not so crazy to occasionally have to play 'who can anchor a new tower first' games.

EDIT: also, step 5 could well be 'the 'target' corp gives up first because all this taking down / putting up of POSs is preventing them from actually using the POS, wasting their time and probably making them lose ISK because of repeated cancelling of manuf/invention jobs'. So the wardeccing corp eventually gets their moon.


It might be nice to actually have a reason to start wardec.

Even nicer to actually have a reason to defend one.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Salvos Rhoska
#154 - 2014-04-16 22:53:53 UTC
So. Will null finally begin mining its own belts?

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#155 - 2014-04-16 23:02:51 UTC
Malcanis wrote:


It might be nice to actually have a reason to start wardec.

Even nicer to actually have a reason to defend one.

While this is a nice sentiment, war decs have many significant outstanding problems. The two most glaring:

(1) The significant difference in cost to wardec small entities vs. large entities
-If I want to wardec Bob's 10 man corp, it's dirt cheap.
-If I want to wardec a 10,000+ member corp, it can get prohibitively expensive.
-It is therefore cheaper and easier to wardec a small corp.
-Some larger entities become effectively immune to all but the most dedicated of war-deccers.

(2) Neutral Reps
-If you are war-decced and go after the deccer, they almost always have neutral reps. Yes, yes, HTFU, I'll get to that later.
-These reps are either provided by alts or through a neutral logi pact with other war dec entities.

So, given that war decs will almost always be larger aggressor corp vs. smaller corp, and the aggressor will almost always have neutral logi available, the status quo will not change with the introduction of these changes. HTFU? Sure people will dock up, or avoid the war dec in other ways, just as they do now. And they'll ditch they're POS too. Is that what these changes are meant to encourage?

One way or the other, war decs are a poor solution for removing/defending a POS.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#156 - 2014-04-16 23:05:11 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
look at it from the other side; 50m per day to stop some one using a pos.
Exactly. Also, no more than 50m once or twice a week would probably be enough to make their POS operations impossibly tedious and unprofitable.


it's not like it's a situation that can't be countered.

simply grow a pair and defend your [not you specifically, but you get the point] pos.

if some one is unwilling to protect their pos, 50m/24hrs to disrupt them, if not... content creation \o/
Which begs the question, how much of a fight can you put up before you are worse off then the loss of 24h of productivity?
Sarah McKnobbo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#157 - 2014-04-16 23:13:28 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
So. Will null finally begin mining its own belts?


That's what renters are for.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#158 - 2014-04-16 23:17:29 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
look at it from the other side; 50m per day to stop some one using a pos.
Exactly. Also, no more than 50m once or twice a week would probably be enough to make their POS operations impossibly tedious and unprofitable.


it's not like it's a situation that can't be countered.

simply grow a pair and defend your [not you specifically, but you get the point] pos.

if some one is unwilling to protect their pos, 50m/24hrs to disrupt them, if not... content creation \o/
Which begs the question, how much of a fight can you put up before you are worse off then the loss of 24h of productivity?


That will end up depending on how significant the scaling is from using station slots. That and refining, soon to be announced research concerns, etc.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#159 - 2014-04-16 23:23:25 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
look at it from the other side; 50m per day to stop some one using a pos.
Exactly. Also, no more than 50m once or twice a week would probably be enough to make their POS operations impossibly tedious and unprofitable.


it's not like it's a situation that can't be countered.

simply grow a pair and defend your [not you specifically, but you get the point] pos.

if some one is unwilling to protect their pos, 50m/24hrs to disrupt them, if not... content creation \o/
Which begs the question, how much of a fight can you put up before you are worse off then the loss of 24h of productivity?


That will end up depending on how significant the scaling is from using station slots. That and refining, soon to be announced research concerns, etc.
On the manufacturing slot issue I can see it. Though I thought POS refining was being made fast enough to allow catch up where that isn't so much the case now.

Either way, I can't see it being realistic to risk th loss of a POS to a serious opponent. Especially not when BPO's would be at risk during research, furthermore if research if just altered to mimic the 14% max difference in cost.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#160 - 2014-04-16 23:24:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Gully Alex Foyle
PotatoOverdose wrote:
So, given that war decs will almost always be larger aggressor corp vs. smaller corp, and the aggressor will almost always have neutral logi available, the status quo will not change with the introduction of these changes. HTFU? Sure people will dock up, or avoid the war dec in other ways, just as they do now. And they'll ditch they're POS too. Is that what these changes are meant to encourage?

One way or the other, war decs are a poor solution for removing/defending a POS.
And what would a good solution be?

Truth is, either you make highsec POSs invulnerable and throw away the very foundation of the game (competitive sandbox), or any removing/defending mechanic will always favor larger and more organized groups. EDIT: sounds like I'm hijacking Somebody's Law but who cares? It's not like that Somebody is posting in this very thread Big smile

The solution for the little fish? Thrive in your pond 'cause the ocean is full of sharks! Don't make your POS a juicy easy target and you'll be fine.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!