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So, just how effective is CSM?

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Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#61 - 2014-04-14 14:28:47 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
I do vote in the csm elections, but I know that many players are extremely suspicious of the csm and thanks to what they see as vested interests and power bloc voting they won't vote


This is exceedingly stupid, and any person who refuses to vote simply because they feel their opinion is in the minority, and would therefore rather slouch and whine that their obviously superior opinion is being ignored, deserves a good hard slap. All such a person is doing is ensuring their opinion doesn't get traction (who knows, maybe it might have won had all their like-minded sulky ilk actually voted), or they are so insecure, they are attempting to use their faliure to vote as an excuse for why their opinion didn't win, rather than the honest truth of it really not being popular enough.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#62 - 2014-04-14 14:38:06 UTC
Quote:
One of the strongest ways we can help is by bringing in-depth knowledge of specific gameplay areas. Remember that EVE is simply too big and complex for anyone to be an expert on everything - even the devs. Especially the devs, because they spend more time writing code than playing the game.


CSM Malcanis wrote what i suspected.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#63 - 2014-04-14 18:18:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Riot Girl
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
The only thing worse than having the CSM, would be not having it.

Tell me one single good thing the CSM has done for Eve.

EDIT: now counter that by thinking of all the bad things the CSM has done for eve. Politics doesn't work in real life, so why the **** would anyone think it would work in a video game?

Oh god.
Serene Repose
#64 - 2014-04-14 19:16:09 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Tell me one single good thing the CSM has done for Eve.
Umm...they disband once a year so we can have a pantomime election!

We must accommodate the idiocracy.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#65 - 2014-04-14 19:16:42 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Quote:
One of the strongest ways we can help is by bringing in-depth knowledge of specific gameplay areas. Remember that EVE is simply too big and complex for anyone to be an expert on everything - even the devs. Especially the devs, because they spend more time writing code than playing the game.


CSM Malcanis wrote what i suspected.


Don't you spend more time at work than you do playing video games?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#66 - 2014-04-14 19:24:30 UTC
Serene Repose wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Tell me one single good thing the CSM has done for Eve.
Umm...they disband once a year so we can have a pantomime election!


Ship Maintenence Arrays drop loot again.

That was us.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#67 - 2014-04-14 20:27:25 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Quote:
One of the strongest ways we can help is by bringing in-depth knowledge of specific gameplay areas. Remember that EVE is simply too big and complex for anyone to be an expert on everything - even the devs. Especially the devs, because they spend more time writing code than playing the game.


CSM Malcanis wrote what i suspected.


Don't you spend more time at work than you do playing video games?


If I worked on a video game, I wouldnt.

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#68 - 2014-04-14 20:35:53 UTC
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
I do vote in the csm elections, but I know that many players are extremely suspicious of the csm and thanks to what they see as vested interests and power bloc voting they won't vote


This is exceedingly stupid, and any person who refuses to vote simply because they feel their opinion is in the minority, and would therefore rather slouch and whine that their obviously superior opinion is being ignored, deserves a good hard slap. All such a person is doing is ensuring their opinion doesn't get traction (who knows, maybe it might have won had all their like-minded sulky ilk actually voted), or they are so insecure, they are attempting to use their faliure to vote as an excuse for why their opinion didn't win, rather than the honest truth of it really not being popular enough.

Given your coalition has 40k people, can vote with alts giving them 120k votes and will almost certainly vote as a bloc and you also have a permanent Goonswarm CSM why would we bother with the GoonSM Goonlection?

We have better things to do while you ruin the game with your meta-garbage. Like play it.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#69 - 2014-04-14 21:02:57 UTC
Quote:
Don't you spend more time at work than you do playing video games?


I do, but it's not my job to create games. Coding without good idea is a waste don't you think? My model example is "infamous loot bukkake". It was designed by someone who didn't know how exploration looks like.
I don't belive that everybody in CCP are writing code.
Still i didn't see any bold movement to justify naming the expansion Rubicon.
I really hope they have something behind colonization term because current mobile structures have nothing to do with colonization.

Shame you don't running again Malcanis.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#70 - 2014-04-14 21:09:55 UTC
The CSM is extremely effective, if you look at it for what it is: A lobby group for the null sec cartels.
As a lobby for them, it does en excellent job of skewing the game's design in the direction of improving the profitability for the cartels, and specifically their leaders' wallets, while impoverishing all other aspects of the Eve universe.

Remember, one of the dev's, I think it was the Pandemic Legion guy, said on the forums, and I paraphrase, "if your group is not on the CSM, we don't listen to you". He apparently was "joking", but the sentiment was clear.

How many of the current cartel representatives have said the same thing this last year?

There is a reason that the cartels exert so much energy to dominate the CSM every year.
They know precisely how much power this gives them in-game.

the goons do far more damage to high sec using the the CSM than any Burn Jita event can possibly imagine to.
And it will continue, as the CSM convinces their very wiling partner, CCP, to give the CSM ever increasing say on game design.

So yes, the CSM is an extremely effective tool in the political machine of the cartels, and will continue to, right up until the moment the largest segment of the subscription base, the silent majority, leaves for greener pastures
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#71 - 2014-04-14 21:26:06 UTC
hello, dinsdale
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#72 - 2014-04-14 21:29:23 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
The CSM is extremely effective, if you look at it for what it is: A lobby group for the null sec cartels.

"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

But I'll make an exception.

Every company that sells a consumer product will have part of their staff dedicated to understanding their customers.

This is done by observing how the product is used, by issuing polls to the customers, by having dedicated customer focus groups, lately by providing their customers with a forum to discuss their experience and by participating and monitoring social media.

CCP does all of this.

The only difference from many other companies is that CCP provides their customers to have an input on who should be on one public customer focus group.

But in difference to random customers, or even members of the CSM, CCP have access to all the data from all the sources.

So do the CSM matter?

If the selected group is good, knowledgeable, capable of coherent argument and can provide CCP with valid input, sure.

If not they'll get some free lunches, some pats on the back and be ignored.

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#73 - 2014-04-14 21:42:39 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
hello, dinsdale


And hello Dinsdale's tears. Dammit, I forgot my umbrella. Why don't they sell these in the NEX Store?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#74 - 2014-04-14 21:46:49 UTC
Lors Dornick wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
The CSM is extremely effective, if you look at it for what it is: A lobby group for the null sec cartels.

"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

But I'll make an exception.

Every company that sells a consumer product will have part of their staff dedicated to understanding their customers.

This is done by observing how the product is used, by issuing polls to the customers, by having dedicated customer focus groups, lately by providing their customers with a forum to discuss their experience and by participating and monitoring social media.

CCP does all of this.

The only difference from many other companies is that CCP provides their customers to have an input on who should be on one public customer focus group.

But in difference to random customers, or even members of the CSM, CCP have access to all the data from all the sources.

So do the CSM matter?

If the selected group is good, knowledgeable, capable of coherent argument and can provide CCP with valid input, sure.

If not they'll get some free lunches, some pats on the back and be ignored.


What describe is indeed how well-run companies keep track of what consumers want.

However in CCP's case, the forum they provide is this very one. Two things stop it from being effective:
a. People are not aware of it. I came across a miner today in low sec. Jan 2014 char. He did not even know about the forums. Now, in retrospect, he did not know who mynnna was, and thought the goons were "some corporation". That is a very large segment of the customer base, and that group does not represent itself on these forums. (and no, though I was in a combat Loki, I did not kill him. I shot the rats he wanted help with, and left him alone.)
b. The null sec cartels are very good at getting any thread that threatens their agenda derailed or locked, very quickly.

And as for the focus group you describe, no doubt the CSM is that focus group. But how many successful companies would build a focus group that is dominated by the small minority of their customer base? If Proctor and Gamble ran focus groups like CCP does, when P&G does potential customer response for a new toothpaste, the would come back from the focus group thinking a toothpaste that allows the user to spit cyanide at anyone is a really good idea.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#75 - 2014-04-14 22:02:53 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
b. The null sec cartels are very good at getting any thread that threatens their agenda derailed or locked, very quickly.

threads you post in get locked and you think someone else is responsible?
Duke Wendo
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#76 - 2014-04-14 22:02:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Duke Wendo
http://csm8.org/csm8-reasonable-things-results/

Check the date of the list...

Check the things that 'we', the players asked for as 'reasonable things'.

Check how many have been implemented since that date.


Come to your own conclusions...
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#77 - 2014-04-14 22:15:48 UTC
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
I do vote in the csm elections, but I know that many players are extremely suspicious of the csm and thanks to what they see as vested interests and power bloc voting they won't vote


This is exceedingly stupid, and any person who refuses to vote simply because they feel their opinion is in the minority, and would therefore rather slouch and whine that their obviously superior opinion is being ignored, deserves a good hard slap. All such a person is doing is ensuring their opinion doesn't get traction (who knows, maybe it might have won had all their like-minded sulky ilk actually voted), or they are so insecure, they are attempting to use their faliure to vote as an excuse for why their opinion didn't win, rather than the honest truth of it really not being popular enough.


Agreed on all points I vote in every election for all of the reasons you've outlined, plus democracy is hard won.

Sadly a great deal of high sec won't or don't vote in the csm as they think it's dominated by null cartels and people who hate their play style. The csm needs to actively counter this as it's becoming a self fulfilling prophecy.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#78 - 2014-04-14 22:17:07 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:

Sadly a great deal of high sec won't or don't vote in the csm as they think it's dominated by null cartels and people who hate their play style. The csm needs to actively counter this as it's becoming a self fulfilling prophecy.


And it's dominated by those things precisely because highsec is too stupid to vote.

Well, and because they aren't anywhere close to the silent majority they think they are. It's a rich tapestry.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2014-04-15 05:39:34 UTC
CSM is as effective or ineffective as it allows itself to become.

If we work with the devs then we get closer to the planning stages end of the development cycle and are listened to in a more cooperative fashion.

No, Nothing I can say will convince some of you because any evidence would mean taking the word of players, devs . . . other people. If a change happens it probably happened in spite of our efforts, not because of it. If we manage to push SMAA drops to the top of the fix it list then it was probably there already, right?

All this talk of the work involved, the day to day talking to devs, passing forward concerns of people who can make a good reasoned point without using all caps . . . yeah.

So take the arguments as presented.

1) It is a popularity contest. (Show me a democratic process that isn't. So you are right on that one.)
2) It is a publicity stunt. (If so it is not a very good one. Nobody has interviewed me and those of us who see our names out there damn well wrote them ourselves.)
3) It is a trick to quiet the noisy forums and make you think they are listening to you (Doesn't seem to be working if that is true)
4) We are a cheap focus group of various skill sets within the game who work for almost free (If you ignore the flights to Iceland)
5) We are an oversight committee to make sure the devs don't cheat. (Um, they have an internal affairs for that, so no)
6) We are whatever we make ourselves and have not been that same two councils in a row.

To expand on that last idea. We are also what you, the voters, make us. If you step back and abstain then we are what somebody else makes us and you can still complain but it will seem a little shiny, at that point. If you want a diverse council of people who will work . . . then vote for the ones you think will do that.

If you want to proclaim it a grand waste of time then go ahead. But we are still in there, trying and working. Just remember that you get what you work for and vote for. If you don't make the effort to VOTE then you will probably get what you put into the process.

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)/¯
Luwc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#80 - 2014-04-15 06:23:14 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Luwc wrote:
ask yourself how happy you are with eve and how things are.

Question answered.

Ask yourself how you would feel about EVE if they were NOT there.


ask yourself if it really makes any difference.

Only thing CSM does is work for the powerblocs.

inb4 pubbie tears.

I have been in the CFC for 3 years.

We wanted drones nerfed. CSM got on it
We wanted Titans nerfed. CSM got on it

etc. etc.

So please dont try to be a smartass publord.

http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif