These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

So, just how effective is CSM?

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#41 - 2014-04-13 22:30:27 UTC
"I was elected by the players to represent the players, that's why I'm going to express my own opinions to CCP while disqualifying every one elses opinion." - CSM Malcanis, on the subject of everything since 2013

Oh god.
masternerdguy
Doomheim
#42 - 2014-04-13 22:33:18 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
"I was elected by the players to represent the players, that's why I'm going to express my own opinions to CCP while disqualifying every one elses opinion." - CSM Malcanis, on the subject of everything since 2013


And what exactly have you done that makes your viewpoint more valid than his?

Things are only impossible until they are not.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#43 - 2014-04-13 22:33:29 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
"I was elected by the players to represent the players, that's why I'm going to express my own opinions to CCP while disqualifying every one elses opinion." - CSM Malcanis, on the subject of everything since 2013

As one of his constituents, I can tell you with some certainty that he fairly represents rather than disqualifies my opinion.
Lady Areola Fappington
#44 - 2014-04-13 22:33:31 UTC
The CSM are a focus group. They are quite useful in being a focus group. They give CCP focus group relevant data.

The debates of utility of focus group data can go long and loud, but in the end, CCP took a standard MMO company practice, and turned it into what it is here.

Most companies pay people to sit on a focus group. In EVE, we fight to become a member.

Few years back, my SO got paid something like $250 + expenses, to travel to California and sit for three days answering questions about a MMO she played. Basically, exact same thing the CSM does, only a lot less formal, and more cherry-picked by the devs.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#45 - 2014-04-13 22:39:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc Fury
What the CSM is:

In the CSM's case players get the added "benefits" of participating in election theater for positions in a body which are not truly representative, and have no authority.

A marketing stunt. No more, no less. Vote early and often.

☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#46 - 2014-04-13 22:46:00 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
"I was elected by the players to represent the players, that's why I'm going to express my own opinions to CCP while disqualifying every one elses opinion." - CSM Malcanis, on the subject of everything since 2013

As one of his constituents, I can tell you with some certainty that he fairly represents rather than disqualifies my opinion.

Yeah, but no offence Tippia, you're pretty chummy with just about anyone on the CSM so basically it's just **** your opinion.

Oh god.
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#47 - 2014-04-13 23:44:06 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Doireen Kaundur wrote:
I think CCP can gather more player input from forums, questionairs and sub numbers than they can from this group.

Is CSM just a feel-good dog and pony show?


I was pleasantly surprised to find out how effective the CSM can be. The main value of the CSM necessarily lies in the NDA covered feedback it can give from named, accountable representatives whom CCP work with over a decent length of time.

One of the strongest ways we can help is by bringing in-depth knowledge of specific gameplay areas. Remember that EVE is simply too big and complex for anyone to be an expert on everything - even the devs. Especially the devs, because they spend more time writing code than playing the game.

To give a hypothetical example of what I mean, suppose CCP Rise, who has a strong background in solo/very small gang PvP wants to give a boat class a general buff. He writes up a draft devblog in which he proposes that Amarr Fleebleboats should get a 15% speed increase, while Minmatar Flobbleboats get a 20% sig reduction. In terms of his experience, the Fleeble speed increase is about as valuable as the Flobble sig bonus. However people like Progod and Sala have extensive big fleet combat, and they advise that the main use for Fleebles and Flobbles in game is as big fleet ships, in which case the 20% reduction vs bomb damage is far more powerful than an increase in subwarp speed.

Now sure, Rise could just ask the playerbase in general, but the problem with doing that is:

(1) A very poor signal to noise ratio, becaue most forum posters are unable or unwilling to give useful, coherent and logical feedback.
(2) A large contingent of people who take any idea by a CCP employee about anything as a binding commitment. These people then get super mad that Flobbleboats don't get the 20% sig reduction that they were "promised!!!!". They whine on about it for years and poison all further ship balancing threads with their refusal to let it go.
(3) Metagaming comes into play, eg: Say the CFC already have a large fraction of their fleet members trained into Flobbleboats due to existing doctrines. Thus the NC can gain a relative advantage in ensuring that Flobbles aren't buffed, and try and campaign to make sure that they end up the worst fleetship in the boat class.
(4) Dinsdale.

Urghs. What a wall of text. But we are lucky. The tldr is "Dinsdale". Now that was easy. Thx Malcanis!

Remove standings and insurance.
Winchester Steele
#48 - 2014-04-13 23:57:39 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
"I was elected by the players to represent the players, that's why I'm going to express my own opinions to CCP while disqualifying every one elses opinion." - CSM Malcanis, on the subject of everything since 2013

As one of his constituents, I can tell you with some certainty that he fairly represents rather than disqualifies my opinion.



Yeah, I agree. Malcanis was a very good voice to have on the CSM, and overall represented my opinion accurately. Not all the time mind you, but often enough that I am sorry he isn't running again.

Maybe a little bit too forthright for a politician though :D

...

Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#49 - 2014-04-14 05:46:10 UTC
Doireen Kaundur wrote:
I think CCP can gather more player input from forums, questionairs and sub numbers than they can from this group.

Is CSM just a feel-good dog and pony show?


Quality, not quantity.

Forums produce high-quantity, low-quality player input with varying levels of granularity. Questionaires produce coarse granularity, low-quality, high-quantity player input. When you're resorting to sub numbers to determine how receptive the community is to changes, you're pretty far up **** creek without a paddle, and your canoe probably has a hole on the bottom.

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#50 - 2014-04-14 08:06:39 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
(4) Dinsdale.


Oh god, I loled hard. Thank you for that :)

And I know you produce your sarcasm against those who repeatedly offend common sense and such things. Thing is you are visible almost exclusively with such post recently. Or maybe it is just my skewed impression, probably I miss a lot of substantial posts in areas I don't lurk so often. Whatever, I'm looking forward to some wordy fruits of your free time :)

Btw, did CCP released video from last summit with your part as well? I remember them saying that Dolan or somebody derped at editing and video they showed during stream didn't have you but I checked later archives and didn't noticed you in there either. So am I blind or you squeezed in between my fast forward steps or your face and voice will remain a mystery for me?


Malcanis fan boy, why don't you just rent a room with him?

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#51 - 2014-04-14 08:14:40 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
(4) Dinsdale.


Oh god, I loled hard. Thank you for that :)

And I know you produce your sarcasm against those who repeatedly offend common sense and such things. Thing is you are visible almost exclusively with such post recently. Or maybe it is just my skewed impression, probably I miss a lot of substantial posts in areas I don't lurk so often. Whatever, I'm looking forward to some wordy fruits of your free time :)

Btw, did CCP released video from last summit with your part as well? I remember them saying that Dolan or somebody derped at editing and video they showed during stream didn't have you but I checked later archives and didn't noticed you in there either. So am I blind or you squeezed in between my fast forward steps or your face and voice will remain a mystery for me?


Malcanis fan boy, why don't you just rent a room with him?


Not so much fan boy as appreciating straight talk and low bullshit tolerance.

Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin

you're welcome
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#52 - 2014-04-14 08:19:15 UTC
I do vote in the csm elections, but I know that many players are extremely suspicious of the csm and thanks to what they see as vested interests and power bloc voting they won't vote or don't think that their vote will be effective or that the csm will be representative of their views.

This is why I always say that csm candidates should seek to represent the best interests of the player base and treat them all as their constituency as opposed to the narrow interests some of them project. In this year's candidate list I quickly got fed up of hopefuls telling me that they liked small gangs and lowsec and wanted to represent that play style to ccp, despite the fact that that is my preferred play style.

Every horse in the race is wearing the same colors it seems. So I deliberately voted for candidates that didn't do this.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#53 - 2014-04-14 08:19:29 UTC
I'm glad the CSM is there and I appreciate the effort that many of them seem to put in.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Josef Djugashvilis
#54 - 2014-04-14 08:20:42 UTC
The only thing worse than having the CSM, would be not having it.

This is not a signature.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#55 - 2014-04-14 08:21:02 UTC
Darek Castigatus wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
(4) Dinsdale.


Oh god, I loled hard. Thank you for that :)

And I know you produce your sarcasm against those who repeatedly offend common sense and such things. Thing is you are visible almost exclusively with such post recently. Or maybe it is just my skewed impression, probably I miss a lot of substantial posts in areas I don't lurk so often. Whatever, I'm looking forward to some wordy fruits of your free time :)

Btw, did CCP released video from last summit with your part as well? I remember them saying that Dolan or somebody derped at editing and video they showed during stream didn't have you but I checked later archives and didn't noticed you in there either. So am I blind or you squeezed in between my fast forward steps or your face and voice will remain a mystery for me?


Malcanis fan boy, why don't you just rent a room with him?


Not so much fan boy as appreciating straight talk and low bullshit tolerance.


Eve is full of straight talk and a low bull **** tolerance, perhaps you can go thirds on the motel room rent.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Toshiro Ozuwara
Perkone
#56 - 2014-04-14 08:36:39 UTC
On a scale of 1 to potato, I score them a rutabaga.

It didn't take long to locate the tracking beacon, deep inside the quarters for sleepin' They thought they could get away Not today, it's not the way that this kid plays
Luwc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#57 - 2014-04-14 08:45:21 UTC
ask yourself how happy you are with eve and how things are.

Question answered.

http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#58 - 2014-04-14 08:58:55 UTC
Luwc wrote:
ask yourself how happy you are with eve and how things are.

Question answered.

Ask yourself how you would feel about EVE if they were NOT there.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Vyl Vit
#59 - 2014-04-14 10:52:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Vyl Vit
Malcanis wrote:
Vyl Vit wrote:
Funny funny funny. How effective is the CSM? The only way to find out is for CCP to release another debacle like the forced in-station "view", have the player base rise up in protest, and watch the CSM go to the CCP staff and tell them, "You know what? I don't think they like this very much."

Of course. CCP could already TELL this by the uprising itself. SO, the CSM MUST be for US! So, you tell me, how comfortable are you now just knowing that bunch of folks (who have to invent a purpose for themselves as they await the next disaster) is there waiting to tell CCP something they already know to give YOU a sense YOU are being represented...personally...

Uh...by an elected official? (Somebody google "farce" for me.)


So you're a vaccine denier?
Denier /ˈdɛnjər/ or den is a unit of measure for the linear mass density of fibers. It is defined as the mass in grams per 9000 meters. The denier is based on a natural reference—i.e., a single strand of silk is approximately one denier. A 9000-meter strand of silk weighs about one gram.

Nooooo I don't think I'm one of those. Perhaps you meant one who denies the efficacy of vaccines...well, only a fool blindly accepts medical science as flawless. There have been some mighty strange things that result from vaccines. (You may find this a lengthy read.)

However, like a comic laughing at his own punchline, or using the word being defined in its own definition, as a CSM member it's in rather poor taste for you to respond in a thread with this subject. (There may be diplomatic, objective or delicate ways to pull it off, none of which you've managed.) Yet, I have to say, your participation in this thread serves to amply support the position I take with regard to the CSM and CCP.

Thanks for proving my point!

Tippia wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
"I was elected by the players to represent the players, that's why I'm going to express my own opinions to CCP while disqualifying every one elses opinion." - CSM Malcanis, on the subject of everything since 2013

As one of his constituents, I can tell you with some certainty that he fairly represents rather than disqualifies my opinion.
And so like you to miss the point. (I sometimes wonder if it's not intentional.) I think the quote refers to the others on the CSM board, not people he alleges he represents.

Paradise is like where you are right now, only much, much better.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#60 - 2014-04-14 11:15:20 UTC
It's better to show new ideas and discuss it with 10 people than 40000.
Then again it will be opinions of 10 people not 40000. ESS is good example.
EvE is not democracy.

Quote:
(4) Dinsdale.

Dinsdale "The bloody cartels" became immortal.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville