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I hate learning implants. Please add learning boosters.

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Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#61 - 2014-04-13 10:33:20 UTC
Nick Starkey wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Nick Starkey wrote:
Your ship exploding also discourages PVP, does it not? Afteral, I'm sure a lot more people would PVP if they didn't lose their ISK while doing so. Just like the ship it's a risk/reward thing that you have to accept.


Reductio ad absurdum. And daft too - how many times has it been said that this is not about ISK? Learning implants are cheap compared to the good stuff.


orly? Because I could replace ships with implants in your original post and it would sound just the same. You already have jump clones to fix your issue, and you need no more than 2 +3 implants to have most of your training time worth it which are very cheap. The +5 implants are designed to be a priviledge, not a right. I don't really see an issue with this at all.

They don't "discourage" PVP more than any other penalty such as losing ships or security status whatsoever. They are also nothing alike learning skills, which were a stupid feature. Learning skills forced non-gameplay for an accelerated gain in future. Learning implants are just as effective inside a station as they are in lowsec, and they allow you to gain the benefit _now_ instead of forcing a long wait before that.

I will explain it once more. It has bugger all to do with cost.

My +5 clone sits in Jita. I have half an hour to spare and won't be able to log in for a couple of days after that. I could jump to my snakes/halos/slaves/whatevers in lowsec. I have to choose between skill points and PvP.

I don't want to have to choose. I don't want other people to have to choose. Give me some expensive learning boosters, preferably sourced from lowsec clouds.

I admit that it isn't important. I admit that it is my own fault. But the end result is that sometimes I don't jump and provide content for someone else.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2014-04-13 10:36:11 UTC
Should breast implants be a thing in NeX Store? Of course it'd be only fair that you lose them if you get podded..

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Josef Djugashvilis
#63 - 2014-04-13 10:37:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Josef Djugashvilis
I have always used +3 implants, they were all I could afford when I started to play, and as I die quite a lot in pvp it would be prohibitively expensive for me to use +5s.

One simply gets used to the time required to train skills using +3s and it stops being a case of, but I want to train faster!

I am training Marauder V right now, and it will be done when it's done.

I just hope I have not died of old age before it is complete :)

This is not a signature.
Tyrton
Imbecile MIiss Managment and Disasters
Intergalactic Interstellar Interns
#64 - 2014-04-13 10:37:58 UTC
PrettyMuch Always Right wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Ah so what you actually want is free permanent learning implants?


This isn't really different from the dumb arguments made against the removal of learning skills, FYI


In fact it is.

Unplug your implants. Go PvP. There, in 30 seconds, your dilemma is resolved; a mere question of spending some ISK compared to the irrevocable commitment of several months training time required to complete the learning skills.

Also you are employing the obvious fallacy of trying to imply that +5s are somehow "required". Basically that the SP/hr that you get with +5s is somehow yours by right.

Would you be content if CCP simply removed learning implants and didn't give everyone a +5 bonus to every stat?

If not then what you're actually complaining about is how long skills take to train; a scalar issue rather than a process issue.

So which is the actual problem that you're complaining about here?

1) That it's possible to risk ISK-value assets to increase training speed

2) That skills take too long to train.

The issue for me is how it relates to new players.

New players are already behind in SP thus value their SP gains more than vets, and rightly so. New players also have less ISK thus value their implants more than vets, and rightly so.

The mechanic in itself benefits the players that need it least, while being detrimental to the players that need it most.

I'm not against training implants personally however I do think new players need an option of sorts to keep up with the vets. Perhaps new Cerebral Accelerators that last longer - up to you a year +2 all around for example - which provides the permanent boost in training for newer players.

EDIT: Oh, Zappity beat me to it it would seem!


I am sorry but there is NO "keep up with vets" Vets are vets because they invested the time and it is their privilege to have. This is the one major plus to eve. We all progress at the same time and eventually we get to that goal we set.

All this boost new player SP gain will do is those VETS that make a living in selling characters will have an easier time. Also this is not that other game where you can just jump in and two weeks of you time invested in it you are running end game.

Nothing stops a new player from training cybernetics to 5 and slapping in a set of +5. All the mechanics are in game already for this.
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#65 - 2014-04-13 10:45:31 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Nick Starkey wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Nick Starkey wrote:
Your ship exploding also discourages PVP, does it not? Afteral, I'm sure a lot more people would PVP if they didn't lose their ISK while doing so. Just like the ship it's a risk/reward thing that you have to accept.


Reductio ad absurdum. And daft too - how many times has it been said that this is not about ISK? Learning implants are cheap compared to the good stuff.


orly? Because I could replace ships with implants in your original post and it would sound just the same. You already have jump clones to fix your issue, and you need no more than 2 +3 implants to have most of your training time worth it which are very cheap. The +5 implants are designed to be a priviledge, not a right. I don't really see an issue with this at all.

They don't "discourage" PVP more than any other penalty such as losing ships or security status whatsoever. They are also nothing alike learning skills, which were a stupid feature. Learning skills forced non-gameplay for an accelerated gain in future. Learning implants are just as effective inside a station as they are in lowsec, and they allow you to gain the benefit _now_ instead of forcing a long wait before that.

I will explain it once more. It has bugger all to do with cost.

My +5 clone sits in Jita. I have half an hour to spare and won't be able to log in for a couple of days after that. I could jump to my snakes/halos/slaves/whatevers in lowsec. I have to choose between skill points and PvP.

I don't want to have to choose. I don't want other people to have to choose. Give me some expensive learning boosters, preferably sourced from lowsec clouds.

I admit that it isn't important. I admit that it is my own fault. But the end result is that sometimes I don't jump and provide content for someone else.


It's cool, now you just admit that the 500-1000 skill points you gain are more important than having fun, and that this is your personal issue and has nothing to do with learning implants.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#66 - 2014-04-13 10:52:12 UTC
King Fu Hostile wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Nick Starkey wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Nick Starkey wrote:
Your ship exploding also discourages PVP, does it not? Afteral, I'm sure a lot more people would PVP if they didn't lose their ISK while doing so. Just like the ship it's a risk/reward thing that you have to accept.


Reductio ad absurdum. And daft too - how many times has it been said that this is not about ISK? Learning implants are cheap compared to the good stuff.


orly? Because I could replace ships with implants in your original post and it would sound just the same. You already have jump clones to fix your issue, and you need no more than 2 +3 implants to have most of your training time worth it which are very cheap. The +5 implants are designed to be a priviledge, not a right. I don't really see an issue with this at all.

They don't "discourage" PVP more than any other penalty such as losing ships or security status whatsoever. They are also nothing alike learning skills, which were a stupid feature. Learning skills forced non-gameplay for an accelerated gain in future. Learning implants are just as effective inside a station as they are in lowsec, and they allow you to gain the benefit _now_ instead of forcing a long wait before that.

I will explain it once more. It has bugger all to do with cost.

My +5 clone sits in Jita. I have half an hour to spare and won't be able to log in for a couple of days after that. I could jump to my snakes/halos/slaves/whatevers in lowsec. I have to choose between skill points and PvP.

I don't want to have to choose. I don't want other people to have to choose. Give me some expensive learning boosters, preferably sourced from lowsec clouds.

I admit that it isn't important. I admit that it is my own fault. But the end result is that sometimes I don't jump and provide content for someone else.


It's cool, now you just admit that the 500-1000 skill points you gain are more important than having fun, and that this is your personal issue and has nothing to do with learning implants.

Yes. Feel better now?

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#67 - 2014-04-13 10:54:16 UTC
Yes, now just change the thread title accordingly and we can let this thread die in peace :)
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#68 - 2014-04-13 10:59:27 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Nick Starkey wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Nick Starkey wrote:
Your ship exploding also discourages PVP, does it not? Afteral, I'm sure a lot more people would PVP if they didn't lose their ISK while doing so. Just like the ship it's a risk/reward thing that you have to accept.


Reductio ad absurdum. And daft too - how many times has it been said that this is not about ISK? Learning implants are cheap compared to the good stuff.


orly? Because I could replace ships with implants in your original post and it would sound just the same. You already have jump clones to fix your issue, and you need no more than 2 +3 implants to have most of your training time worth it which are very cheap. The +5 implants are designed to be a priviledge, not a right. I don't really see an issue with this at all.

They don't "discourage" PVP more than any other penalty such as losing ships or security status whatsoever. They are also nothing alike learning skills, which were a stupid feature. Learning skills forced non-gameplay for an accelerated gain in future. Learning implants are just as effective inside a station as they are in lowsec, and they allow you to gain the benefit _now_ instead of forcing a long wait before that.

I will explain it once more. It has bugger all to do with cost.

My +5 clone sits in Jita. I have half an hour to spare and won't be able to log in for a couple of days after that. I could jump to my snakes/halos/slaves/whatevers in lowsec. I have to choose between skill points and PvP.

I don't want to have to choose. I don't want other people to have to choose. Give me some expensive learning boosters, preferably sourced from lowsec clouds.

I admit that it isn't important. I admit that it is my own fault. But the end result is that sometimes I don't jump and provide content for someone else.

Shocked

Remove standings and insurance.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2014-04-13 11:03:50 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
Learning implants are an outdated vestige of the days of learning skills. The players that really care about training time are newer players, while improved training time is a frivolous benefit for those players that already have high-SP characters. They serve no real purpose but to provide a massive advantage to risk-averse players (with outliers like extremely wealthy PvPers who can afford to replace +5s regularly)

Attribute bonuses should have been nuked from implants years ago, with base stats being increased by 5.


Ah so what you actually want is free permanent learning implants?

Temporary boosters. Create more drug trade.

i don't want to replace my constant boost by temporary. What for?
I happily have enough implants in my head and it doesnt' prevent me from undocking

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Solecist Project
#70 - 2014-04-13 11:05:06 UTC
Zappity wrote:
But Malcanis makes a good point - why not just have both? I would like learning drugs to stack on top of whatever implants I choose to sit in. Make 'em expensive.
Price isn't a balancing factor.

ISK is too easily accumulated.

They'd need a rather strong downside instead.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2014-04-13 11:05:40 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
masternerdguy wrote:
I argued against removing learning skills. It was a huge mistake on CCP's part.


But you lost, and rightly so because learning skills were garbage timesinks that had zero impact on actual gameplay (unless you consider skill queuing 'gameplay') as are learning implants.

not really.

that story just shown that we have a lot more stupid players inside our community than we thought

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Solecist Project
#72 - 2014-04-13 11:05:56 UTC
King Fu Hostile wrote:
It's cool, now you just admit that the 500-1000 skill points you gain are more important than having fun, and that this is your personal issue and has nothing to do with learning implants.
Well that was obvious right from the beginning...

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#73 - 2014-04-13 11:07:11 UTC
Sounds to me like you love learning implants too much.
Linna Baresi
#74 - 2014-04-13 11:13:35 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Zappity wrote:
masternerdguy wrote:
Wesley Otsdarva wrote:
Or just run cheaper implants like others have said? Sure dropping the 500 mil for a full set of 5's is nice but +3's work too. And in all honesty +4's would work too.

Thats the cost of using attribute implants, Increased skill point allocation, but with the chance of getting podded and losing all dat isk.


And if you are going to spring for +5s just get a low grade pirate implant set and have some fun. Only a little more expensive and it provides real, tangible, boosts to your ship.

Pirate sets are +3 learning too. Doesn't change the principle.


Do you think T2 and faction ships should be removed also? Why should you be forced to choose between paying more ISK and having a more effective ship? The increased loss is just a penalty and a disincentive to PvP, right?

Actually, why should ships be destroyed at all....?


I understand where the OP comes from. I too think it's a fairly bad mechanic. As a new player, there is SO MUCH to learn... and it all takes lots and lots and lots of time. I've seen people in chat who said they were only logging in their characters to train during the first year of their sub... which is just an appalling notion.

And contrary to what one of the previous posters said, +5 implants save a great deal of training time, even when compared to +3 implants. On a one year training plan, it can save as much as 90 days. That's hardly insignificant, especially to a new player.

I completely agree that it makes sense to have skill enhancing implants, and to have those destroyed on podding. But the whole idea of learning implants needs to be overhauled, because once you have them, it IS a deterrent to actually going out and trying things. Sure, there's jump clones, but that's precious training time lost....


Member of since 2003 fated.europefreeforum.com
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2014-04-13 11:27:37 UTC
Zappity wrote:

I don't want to have to choose. I don't want other people to have to choose.

would it be OK for you if i just forbid you from using learning implants?

If so you have my word: "Zappity, from now you MUST NOT use any learning implants".

Now i saved you from painful choices. No need to thank

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#76 - 2014-04-13 11:39:05 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Nick Starkey wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Nick Starkey wrote:
Your ship exploding also discourages PVP, does it not? Afteral, I'm sure a lot more people would PVP if they didn't lose their ISK while doing so. Just like the ship it's a risk/reward thing that you have to accept.


Reductio ad absurdum. And daft too - how many times has it been said that this is not about ISK? Learning implants are cheap compared to the good stuff.


orly? Because I could replace ships with implants in your original post and it would sound just the same. You already have jump clones to fix your issue, and you need no more than 2 +3 implants to have most of your training time worth it which are very cheap. The +5 implants are designed to be a priviledge, not a right. I don't really see an issue with this at all.

They don't "discourage" PVP more than any other penalty such as losing ships or security status whatsoever. They are also nothing alike learning skills, which were a stupid feature. Learning skills forced non-gameplay for an accelerated gain in future. Learning implants are just as effective inside a station as they are in lowsec, and they allow you to gain the benefit _now_ instead of forcing a long wait before that.

I will explain it once more. It has bugger all to do with cost.

My +5 clone sits in Jita. I have half an hour to spare and won't be able to log in for a couple of days after that. I could jump to my snakes/halos/slaves/whatevers in lowsec. I have to choose between skill points and PvP.

I don't want to have to choose. I don't want other people to have to choose. Give me some expensive learning boosters, preferably sourced from lowsec clouds.

I admit that it isn't important. I admit that it is my own fault. But the end result is that sometimes I don't jump and provide content for someone else.



But what you want is for me to not be able to to choose. Thanks buddy, but please don't try and do me any more favours like that..

I'm quite happy with the idea of a consumable booster that can be used (non-cumulatively) for people who want to use them; I think they're a really good idea. I am opposed to the idea of removing an existing choice to make a permanent investment.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#77 - 2014-04-13 11:42:05 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Nick Starkey wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Nick Starkey wrote:
Your ship exploding also discourages PVP, does it not? Afteral, I'm sure a lot more people would PVP if they didn't lose their ISK while doing so. Just like the ship it's a risk/reward thing that you have to accept.


Reductio ad absurdum. And daft too - how many times has it been said that this is not about ISK? Learning implants are cheap compared to the good stuff.


orly? Because I could replace ships with implants in your original post and it would sound just the same. You already have jump clones to fix your issue, and you need no more than 2 +3 implants to have most of your training time worth it which are very cheap. The +5 implants are designed to be a priviledge, not a right. I don't really see an issue with this at all.

They don't "discourage" PVP more than any other penalty such as losing ships or security status whatsoever. They are also nothing alike learning skills, which were a stupid feature. Learning skills forced non-gameplay for an accelerated gain in future. Learning implants are just as effective inside a station as they are in lowsec, and they allow you to gain the benefit _now_ instead of forcing a long wait before that.

I will explain it once more. It has bugger all to do with cost.

My +5 clone sits in Jita. I have half an hour to spare and won't be able to log in for a couple of days after that. I could jump to my snakes/halos/slaves/whatevers in lowsec. I have to choose between skill points and PvP.

I don't want to have to choose. I don't want other people to have to choose. Give me some expensive learning boosters, preferably sourced from lowsec clouds.

I admit that it isn't important. I admit that it is my own fault. But the end result is that sometimes I don't jump and provide content for someone else.



But what you want is for me to not be able to to choose. Thanks buddy, but please don't try and do me any more favours like that..

I'm quite happy with the idea of a consumable booster that can be used (non-cumulatively) for people who want to use them; I think they're a really good idea. I am opposed to the idea of removing an existing choice to make a permanent investment.

I already commented that your suggestion to have both was better.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Arianne Stone
Black Rebel Rifter Club
The Devil's Tattoo
#78 - 2014-04-13 11:49:39 UTC
You don't have to choose, you don't need pirate implants to pvp.
Obvious Cyno
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2014-04-13 12:34:59 UTC
Zappity wrote:
I hate learning implants. I have a +5 learning clone sitting in Jita which I jump to if I will be away from game for a few days. The problem is that when I have time to log in for half an hour I never want to jump back to lowsec for some pew because of the training time loss over the next few days. So someone, usually me :), doesn't explode that day. Stupid, I know, but there you go.

Get rid of learning implants. They just discourage PvP. I'd love to see them replaced with learning drugs of different levels and durations.


How do you even get podded in lowsec? i genuinely find it difficult.
Johm Luck
Perkone
Caldari State
#80 - 2014-04-13 12:49:38 UTC
You should be able to swap to clones in the same station without triggering the cooldown. Such an obvious solution. But CCP doesn't want you to change clones because then you could get by with fewer characters.